Martial Art Purely for Defense

Training
61

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
You need to recognize the dangers, like oh shit he is charging me and trying to take me down or push me through a wall car etc. and be able to take an appropriate action, and just knowing how to armbar or kimura someone is not gonna get it. Also as an added bonus and swish of smartassness, your best chance to even get close to beating me is to get me on my back but doing so is gonna be real, real hard.

From my experience the most important things are learning when to leave. Sento is much better at identifying those areas than I.
Next would be spacing / range defending punches, takedowns and clinch work. Learn how to keep the guy on the end of your punches, what to do if he gets a hold of you(clinch) how to sprawl, reverse, control the head and how to run away.

That is just how I look at fighting some dumbass out on the street. If he really attacks me im going to try to pivot, sidestep or whatever to not be in front of him and hit his dumbass from being offline on the side. If he gets a grip on me im gonna make space anyway I can with cross face, basing my hips and Im gonna punch my way out of there if possible, if not im gonna grab an arm or ear or eyeball nutsack or whatever. and get the hell away back to my range of weapons.
[/quote]

Very true. You’ve got to get close to me to do anything. I’m going to hit you as soon as you close. We’ll see what happens from there.

62

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]donnydarkoirl wrote:
Assuming we are the innocent party being assaulted- it is very seldom there will be a solitary assailant.
[/quote]
Are there any sources for that? Sexual assault is more likely one on one. Then you have the Trayvon incident which was one on one, and went to the ground.

[/quote]

I’m not going to throw out numbers without looking them up, but a good number of crimes are committed by two people.

Most streetfights I have been involved in - actually, all of them, if you don’t count schoolyard shit - involved more than one person and sometimes dozens.

Going to the ground is suicide in that situation. Absolute suicide. I know it because I’ve done some pretty bad shit to people who WERE on the ground.

Allegedly. [/quote]
You have to make a distinction between street fights and self-defense (crimes) and also, when it comes to crimes, a distinction between assaults and other crimes.

63

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Well even if you took the stance that 90% of fights went to the ground I would steer away from jyu jitsu in favor of submission wrestling, pancration or something like that. The thing that helps my ground fighting the most is wrestling. [/quote]
But would you tell a 40 year old woman who weighed 110 pounds to start wrestling for self-defense? The thing that needs to be remembered in regard to BJJ is that it was created for smaller, weaker people to survive against bigger, stronger people. [/quote]

Oh man. Here he goes. Fuck it. I’m done.[/quote]
Why? Am I saying you should do BJJ? Am I saying anyone should? I’m just saying that what someone chooses to train should be based on what will work for them. YOU would teach an 8 year old how to box and then tell them him if he is approached by a strange adult that he should fight him?

64

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Well even if you took the stance that 90% of fights went to the ground I would steer away from jyu jitsu in favor of submission wrestling, pancration or something like that. The thing that helps my ground fighting the most is wrestling. [/quote]
But would you tell a 40 year old woman who weighed 110 pounds to start wrestling for self-defense? The thing that needs to be remembered in regard to BJJ is that it was created for smaller, weaker people to survive against bigger, stronger people. [/quote]

Oh man. Here he goes. Fuck it. I’m done.[/quote]
Why? Am I saying you should do BJJ? Am I saying anyone should? I’m just saying that what someone chooses to train should be based on what will work for them. YOU would teach an 8 year old how to box and then tell them him if he is approached by a strange adult that he should fight him? [/quote]

I didn’t say any of that. But are you saying BJJ is going to save an 8-year-old from a strange adult? Seriously?

65

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
You have to make a distinction between street fights and self-defense (crimes) and also, when it comes to crimes, a distinction between assaults and other crimes. [/quote]

Do I? A possible self-defense situation can turn into a streetfight, which can then turn into an assault if I don’t know force continuums. They meld pretty easily.

That being said, I don’t know what this has to do with my post, other than that if you get my buddy on the ground, I’m going to kick you in teeth and the fight will be over.

66

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Are there any sources for that? Sexual assault is more likely one on one. Then you have the Trayvon incident which was one on one, and went to the ground.
[/quote]
Well I have no quantitative sources.
Assault or criminality are not areas that I haved studied or have any remote interest.

However, I have lived in a problematic area and I have been assaulted on more than one occassion.

Sexual assault is a vile act- often carried out by a stronger assailant on a vulnerable victim.

On a forum utilised primarily by athletic adult males, I think it is fair to say that the assault of primary concern here would be a mugging, car theft or a house invasion.
I believe that these are very seldom acts performed on ones own; particularly against the niche of society that frequent this forum.

67

Irish,

I was not putting words in your mouth. I should have used the quote function I guess… My comments were more directed at the guy saying that you should take Jyu jitsu because 90% go to the ground anyway.

68

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Irish,

I was not putting words in your mouth. I should have used the quote function I guess… My comments were more directed at the guy saying that you should take Jyu jitsu because 90% go to the ground anyway.

[/quote]

Oh no Ranzo, I know that. I was directing my comments to him as well, not you.

69

[quote]JWolfe wrote:
def go with jiu jitsu. if you can take someone down (90% of fights go to the ground anyway) and have any kind of grappling knowledge over you’re opponent, you’ll win. don’t even worry about being able to do submissions (although that would be ideal). the ability to wrestle, hold down, and control someone can go along way even if you are no good at striking. [/quote]

I really enjoy training Jiu Jitsu and teach it to my students (though I will also show them the difference between what needs to be done in a real fight to deal with possible weapons, bites, gouges, etc…, and always stress that situational/environmental factors may make purposely going to the ground a terrible idea), but first, even if most fights go to the ground (which I agree is probably hyperbole) that doesn’t mean that you want to go there most of the time. If you have ever grappled on pavement, gravel, on uneven ground or in any of the other realistic environments that fights can occur in (as opposed to having only grappled on nice cushy mats) you will know that it is not a very comfortable experience (for either person). Add in all of the other variables that can throw a Monkey wrench into your usual sport based paradigm and it becomes more and more evident that you had better have a damned good reason and a conducive situation to take a fight to the ground and if you do you had better finish it as quickly as possible.

70

I took a bit of trad martial arts when I was younger, Kenpo and a some TKD and Krav Maga for a few years and I would agree with most of what Irish said. I have however really come to like the simplicity of what Tony Blauer is teaching. Now many people don’t like Blauer in part because of his affiliation with Crossfit but when it comes to DEFENSE, it’s hard to beat the concept of outside 90. While it can be attributed to a fence and other such like methods, Blauer has a good demonstration of how employ the “SPEAR” and a ton of stuff out there for free to view and get the basics. I’m no longer a Crossfit advocate but their main site has a lot of combatives instruction by Blauer.

Having that instinctual defensive mechanism coupled with an attacking mindset (when appropriate) is about all you can ask. That was one thing I really got out of KM was the learned reaction to step into, not away from CQ engagements. (Again, when appropriate) The rest - punching, knee elbow… whatever can be drilled to death by you for timing, accuracy and power.

71

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

I really enjoy training Jiu Jitsu and teach it to my students (though I will also show them the difference between what needs to be done in a real fight to deal with possible weapons, bites, gouges, etc…, and always stress that situational/environmental factors may make purposely going to the ground a terrible idea), but first, even if most fights go to the ground (which I agree is probably hyperbole) that doesn’t mean that you want to go there most of the time. If you have ever grappled on pavement, gravel, on uneven ground or in any of the other realistic environments that fights can occur in (as opposed to having only grappled on nice cushy mats) you will know that it is not a very comfortable experience (for either person). Add in all of the other variables that can throw a Monkey wrench into your usual sport based paradigm and it becomes more and more evident that you had better have a damned good reason and a conducive situation to take a fight to the ground and if you do you had better finish it as quickly as possible.[/quote]

The last time I trained with John Renken we did some hip tosses and takedowns from the clinch. Mostly using the Gi but in any event we covered several techniques and the conversation was on self defense and how to stop a Guard Flopper as well as why that is a bad idea in the street. So he asked us to step outside, then asked who wanted to demo one of the hip tosses right there in the parking lot. Complete silence, then some giggles. Then we were told to have one person get down and have another get in their guard. You really don’t want to fight on the ground and since most times you encounter trouble you aren’t gonna be in a pasture I wholeheartedly agree.

72

[quote]Ranzo wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

I really enjoy training Jiu Jitsu and teach it to my students (though I will also show them the difference between what needs to be done in a real fight to deal with possible weapons, bites, gouges, etc…, and always stress that situational/environmental factors may make purposely going to the ground a terrible idea), but first, even if most fights go to the ground (which I agree is probably hyperbole) that doesn’t mean that you want to go there most of the time. If you have ever grappled on pavement, gravel, on uneven ground or in any of the other realistic environments that fights can occur in (as opposed to having only grappled on nice cushy mats) you will know that it is not a very comfortable experience (for either person). Add in all of the other variables that can throw a Monkey wrench into your usual sport based paradigm and it becomes more and more evident that you had better have a damned good reason and a conducive situation to take a fight to the ground and if you do you had better finish it as quickly as possible.[/quote]

The last time I trained with John Renken we did some hip tosses and takedowns from the clinch. Mostly using the Gi but in any event we covered several techniques and the conversation was on self defense and how to stop a Guard Flopper as well as why that is a bad idea in the street. So he asked us to step outside, then asked who wanted to demo one of the hip tosses right there in the parking lot. Complete silence, then some giggles. Then we were told to have one person get down and have another get in their guard. You really don’t want to fight on the ground and since most times you encounter trouble you aren’t gonna be in a pasture I wholeheartedly agree.[/quote]

Yea, guys who’ve never actually been in a real fight forget pretty quick - or don’t know in the first place - that even being on your hands and knees on the cement is uncomfortable.

Falling to your knees gently on concrete is enough to hurt, give you a bruise, and tear you pants up. Slapping your hand on the ground, especially in the winter, hurts like a motherfucker. Trying to work your hands and arms while on your back is enough to cause a shitload of discomfort, especially if you hit your elbows.

It’s not the place to be.

73

I don’t think id opt to go to the ground in any situation however grappling knowledge would definitely come in handy.

I might be going off topic here but has anyone actually used a kubaton? I brought one 10 years ago but i’ve never practiced with it or carried it in person.

74

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Going to the ground is suicide in that situation. Absolute suicide. I know it because I’ve done some pretty bad shit to people who WERE on the ground.

Allegedly. [/quote]

LMFAO. “Alledgedly”. Haha.

I don’t post much on this forum (since generally people on here are more knowledgeable than I am) but if I do it’s for smart ass comments or “don’t do BJJ” for self defense. Insert most interesting man in the world meme

When I started Judo, I had a wrestling background, and I basically forced myself (no rape - no homo) through people during the ground fighting. I never really got anywhere with it, but I was able to disengage myself frequently, and prevent these guys from getting me. Some of the black belts would get me, but that’s because I was making noob mistakes and attacking.

However, if my interest was to get away, I feel I could have done it quite easily. I was also seldom on my back, having done wrestling, and I found I was more in control, as a result, than if I had been on my back. Not knocking BJJ, but I consider it more of a supplementary MA. The brute force/explosiveness of wrestling I’ve come to find, is quite useful.

75

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
But would you tell a 40 year old woman who weighed 110 pounds to start wrestling for self-defense? The thing that needs to be remembered in regard to BJJ is that it was created for smaller, weaker people to survive against bigger, stronger people. [/quote]

I keep hearing this, and you know what I always think when I’m rolling on the ground with people?

“Oh man, if I could only just punch this guy/gal…”

Point being- You need to be genuinely SKILLED and in the correct mindset for the above assumption and the unspoken assumption that your ground-work is the only thing that matters when you’re on the ground to work.

I am a very weak, light, and short man when compared to the average U.S. white male. And there have been so many times where I could have just out-muscled a guy with a higher belt if I wanted to. The only person who I couldn’t do this against were brown belts and above; because they (generally speaking) genuinely knew wtf they were doing and so prevented me from ever getting into a position where I can utilize strength properly or just punch them (by this I mean actually having control over my arms)

But most people will never reach that level.

Of course, I can only speak for the people that I’ve actually grappled against, and they are few. I’m sure folks who are into active comp. or train with genuine masters would destroy me regardless of what belt they are. But that’s because they’re active comp. folks/etc and so train to be aggressive, intuitive, and FAST. In short; they actually train BJJ as though it’s a martial arts.

Your average BJJ guy seems to train it as though it’s just a hobby, which it is. If you train as such, you shouldn’t even think of being able to use it in some sort of hypothetical survival situation, because you’re actually not training to use it in some sort of hypothetical survival situation.

It’s not the martial art you learn that matters; it is the why in your learning and how in your training. If you are a mere hobbyist, then no grappling art, (be it sambo, judo, bjj, greco-roman wrestling, w.e.) will save your ass in a hypothetical survival situation. And I find BJJ claiming that it is meant to be for lighter people to fight against heavier people disingenuous in that regard.

76

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
But would you tell a 40 year old woman who weighed 110 pounds to start wrestling for self-defense? The thing that needs to be remembered in regard to BJJ is that it was created for smaller, weaker people to survive against bigger, stronger people. [/quote]

I keep hearing this, and you know what I always think when I’m rolling on the ground with people?

“Oh man, if I could only just punch this guy/gal…”

Point being- You need to be genuinely SKILLED and in the correct mindset for the above assumption and the unspoken assumption that your ground-work is the only thing that matters when you’re on the ground to work.

I am a very weak, light, and short man when compared to the average U.S. white male. And there have been so many times where I could have just out-muscled a guy with a higher belt if I wanted to. The only person who I couldn’t do this against were brown belts and above; because they (generally speaking) genuinely knew wtf they were doing and so prevented me from ever getting into a position where I can utilize strength properly or just punch them (by this I mean actually having control over my arms)

But most people will never reach that level.

Of course, I can only speak for the people that I’ve actually grappled against, and they are few. I’m sure folks who are into active comp. or train with genuine masters would destroy me regardless of what belt they are. But that’s because they’re active comp. folks/etc and so train to be aggressive, intuitive, and FAST. In short; they actually train BJJ as though it’s a martial arts.

Your average BJJ guy seems to train it as though it’s just a hobby, which it is. If you train as such, you shouldn’t even think of being able to use it in some sort of hypothetical survival situation, because you’re actually not training to use it in some sort of hypothetical survival situation.

It’s not the martial art you learn that matters; it is the why in your learning and how in your training. If you are a mere hobbyist, then no grappling art, (be it sambo, judo, bjj, greco-roman wrestling, w.e.) will save your ass in a hypothetical survival situation. And I find BJJ claiming that it is meant to be for lighter people to fight against heavier people disingenuous in that regard.[/quote]

That’s it right there. To pose or not to pose

77

[quote]Pete86 wrote:
I don’t think id opt to go to the ground in any situation however grappling knowledge would definitely come in handy.

I might be going off topic here but has anyone actually used a kubaton? I brought one 10 years ago but i’ve never practiced with it or carried it in person.
[/quote]

I actually can think of a few, but they are certainly the minority and would require very specific conditions. I wouldn’t be looking to “grapple” though; I’m looking to escalate the violence to the max as fast and brutally as possible in order to finish the job ASAP.

The head of iCAT Greece, Master John Lemodetis (who as it turns out is also the Kyokushin black belt that I mentioned earlier in the thread) loves the Kubuton and has done a bunch of stuff with is when he has come States side for seminars. He has had a lot of success teaching women how to use them, several of whom have successfully fought off larger make attackers without having decades of experience.

It’s a great little tool, pretty much the same thing as a Yawara (if you are familiar with Ninjutsu), but with the added benefit of the ring to attach to your key chain (which both helps the Kubuton double as a flail, and also can be used to strike or pressure). If you understand nerve attacks/pain points, small joint manipulations, and basic impact weapon mechanics then you should be able to very quickly figure out how to utilize a Kubuton effectively.

I would generally suggest getting the plain stick ones though (metal or wood) and to stay away from the ones with spikes sticking out of them. The former are fairly non lethal and much easier to justify having on your keys.

78

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
But would you tell a 40 year old woman who weighed 110 pounds to start wrestling for self-defense? The thing that needs to be remembered in regard to BJJ is that it was created for smaller, weaker people to survive against bigger, stronger people. [/quote]

I keep hearing this, and you know what I always think when I’m rolling on the ground with people?

“Oh man, if I could only just punch this guy/gal…”

Point being- You need to be genuinely SKILLED and in the correct mindset for the above assumption and the unspoken assumption that your ground-work is the only thing that matters when you’re on the ground to work.

I am a very weak, light, and short man when compared to the average U.S. white male. And there have been so many times where I could have just out-muscled a guy with a higher belt if I wanted to. The only person who I couldn’t do this against were brown belts and above; because they (generally speaking) genuinely knew wtf they were doing and so prevented me from ever getting into a position where I can utilize strength properly or just punch them (by this I mean actually having control over my arms)

But most people will never reach that level.

Of course, I can only speak for the people that I’ve actually grappled against, and they are few. I’m sure folks who are into active comp. or train with genuine masters would destroy me regardless of what belt they are. But that’s because they’re active comp. folks/etc and so train to be aggressive, intuitive, and FAST. In short; they actually train BJJ as though it’s a martial arts.

Your average BJJ guy seems to train it as though it’s just a hobby, which it is. If you train as such, you shouldn’t even think of being able to use it in some sort of hypothetical survival situation, because you’re actually not training to use it in some sort of hypothetical survival situation.

It’s not the martial art you learn that matters; it is the why in your learning and how in your training. If you are a mere hobbyist, then no grappling art, (be it sambo, judo, bjj, greco-roman wrestling, w.e.) will save your ass in a hypothetical survival situation. And I find BJJ claiming that it is meant to be for lighter people to fight against heavier people disingenuous in that regard.[/quote]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but the same could be said of the vast, vast majority of Martial Arts. In fact, I think the only stuff that this isn’t going to hold true for would be cerebral stuff that seeks to just keep you out of situations in the first place, “dirty fighting” stuff like biting, gouging, etc…, or blade stuff. That stuff could be effectively used with relatively very little training, but obviously are still limited and leave lots of potential chinks in the armor so to speak.

The thing about BJJ being designed to allow smaller people to defeat/survive against bigger people isn’t really unique to BJJ and is based on the ideal of utilizing superior leverage, timing, blending with energy and many of the other concepts that make up many combat sports. Wing Chun, Judo, Jujutsu/Jiu-Jitsu, Taiji, BJJ, heck even boxing all aspire to these ideals. You of course have people who are effective with all of them who are big and strong and sometimes utilize that superior physicality to their advantage, but that just boils down to individuals expressing their personal version of the art.

Like you said though, it depends on how and why you train the arts.

79

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but the same could be said of the vast, vast majority of Martial Arts. In fact, I think the only stuff that this isn’t going to hold true for would be cerebral stuff that seeks to just keep you out of situations in the first place, “dirty fighting” stuff like biting, gouging, etc…, or blade stuff. That stuff could be effectively used with relatively very little training, but obviously are still limited and leave lots of potential chinks in the armor so to speak.

The thing about BJJ being designed to allow smaller people to defeat/survive against bigger people isn’t really unique to BJJ and is based on the ideal of utilizing superior leverage, timing, blending with energy and many of the other concepts that make up many combat sports. Wing Chun, Judo, Jujutsu/Jiu-Jitsu, Taiji, BJJ, heck even boxing all aspire to these ideals. You of course have people who are effective with all of them who are big and strong and sometimes utilize that superior physicality to their advantage, but that just boils down to individuals expressing their personal version of the art.

Like you said though, it depends on how and why you train the arts.[/quote]

Oh I agree with you. That’s why I tried making that differentiation between hobbyists and serious people. Hobbyists do it for fun, serious people do it for big competitions/actual self-defense necessities. And the mindset they have when they train will be very different. It doesn’t matter what you’re training; you need to be serious about it if you actually want to use it in a self-defense situation.

Anyways, I most certainly agree with you regarding martial arts being meant to make a smaller guy more advantageous against bigger guys, etc. The entire point of martial arts is to train how to subdue someone. Obviously each art has its own emphasis, but they’re all meant to maximize your ability to subdue someone. That’s why I find BJJ and its claim disingenuous to the extreme. Technique is king? No shit, the same is true in every other martial arts. It’l allow you to beat bigger people? No shit, the same is true for every other martial arts.

80

I’m a BJJ fighter with a strong background coming for 6 years of thai boxing and judo.
I’ve been in some fights and each time so far I have either knocked the guy down or thrown him on his head.

I’d say go for judo or boxing and get a decent teacher.