Mark Rippetoe Success Story

Training
141

Hot dam. Reading this thread is actually making me WANT to try a few months on SS. Some of the testimonials of strength increases is really tempting. The carry over to the “beach”/“mirror” exercises would be pretty badass.

Look I spent most of my life trying splits running around in circles. T-Nation brought me to the light of BB compound lifting. Newb progress or whatever it is, I’m hooked.

True though Wendlers 5/3/1 would probably do my natural fat ass much better overall. But SS seems like a good start for the skinny bastards in the mailroom at my job always asking me for bulk tips by the water cooler when I mix my shakes…

142

[quote]knotginuwhine wrote:
I don’t enjoy training in his paragdigm[/quote]

And what would that be? Go ahead… I’ll wait…

143

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]knotginuwhine wrote:
and ate 4 bk breakfast sandwiches PW, with a gallon of protein shake throughout the day, is that body builder talk enough or still too power lifter? [/quote]

You’ve corrected this 4 bk breakfast sandwich disaster at some point right?[/quote]
To some degree.
I live in a second/third world country now, my food is spartan, somewhat to my chagrin I assure you.
I’m more like 220 now.

144

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
If the goal is to get bigger/stronger and look better, I honestly see no reason for a beginner to do SS when they could start off with an intelligently designed 4 day body part split with 2 exercises per body part, using a lower rep range like 4-8 for compounds and 8-12 for isolations.

[/quote]

This that you just described.
I feel I plateaued with no plausible non-drug recourse doing this kind of thing.
No hard feelings just my experience.

145

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
I can only repeat what I’ve stated in some other SS-critique thread:

One or two cycles of SS will be far, far better for the majority of aspiring bodybuilders then a 4 or 5 day split with lots of isolation.
On top of that, it is good athletical investment.

A few months without going deep with concentration curls won’t make the gods of iron cry.

[/quote]

this is long I’m sorry

I don’t understand this lots of isolation stuff? Bodybuilding splits ARE NOT all about the isolations.
They are about putting yourself at a mechanical disadvantage and using MIND MUSCLE CONNECTION during your workout all while keeping progressive overload in the picture meaning YES YOU DO WORK ON GETTING STRONGER.

on chest day I do one isolation movement ( I superset machine flys with decline hammerstrength machine pressing as a finisher.)

on back…I do no isolations for the back (have done pullovers in the past but I feel like these are best before doing compound lifts to build MMC)

For legs, I don’t even do any isolations currently in my routine. well except for my baby calves.

the only days I do exclusively isolations is on my arm days (minus hammerstrength dips) and shoulder days, which in my opinion is healthier for the shoulder and more conducive to better looking shoulders than heavy overhead pressing.

why do people put down isolations like they hinder your gains?

I do curls because my MMC with my back is so good my biceps barely feel like they have been touched

I do tricep isolations because when I do compound pressing I dont feel my long head being engaged at all unless it is prexausted

One more question why would I get some sort of advantage from doing a powerlifting oriented routine? Not to be disrespectful or anything, maybe this would help but from my logic I don’t see it being that beneficial and this is why…

If I add 50 pounds in 2 months to my bench because of some mechanical/leverage advantage but the main parts of my body that contributed to this strength increase were my triceps and shoulders then what is the point if I wanted a bigger chest?

I would much rather only add 10lbs in 2 months to my bench if it meant that I was putting the most focusing and using as much of my chest as possible during the pressing movement while minimizing the engagement of other muscles because more likely if my nutrition and recovery was on point this would lead to the most growth in my chest.

146

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]knotginuwhine wrote:

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
If the goal is to get bigger/stronger and look better, I honestly see no reason for a beginner to do SS when they could start off with an intelligently designed 4 day body part split with 2 exercises per body part, using a lower rep range like 4-8 for compounds and 8-12 for isolations. I’m inclined to believe they’d gain just as much strength on their big lifts, gain more muscle overall from actually training all body parts directly, gain less fat from doing more volume and ultimately end up looking better.

[/quote]
You sir are the outliers of outliers, congratulations on your parent choice, my complements.
In my experience the reason that what you suggest is not optimal,(notice I said optimal), for most is that hypertrophy plateaus are quickly, (1-2 years ish), acquired without programming, drugs or genetics, to surpass them.[/quote]

You don’t really know what you are talking about and all you are doing is making excuses.

KingBeefs advice is on point.[/quote]

I agree. You dont have to get to an advanced point before you can start training for hypertrophy. Thats asinine. And since when does it only continuously work for outliers only?

I have no problems with starting strength.

But what would you rather start with if you could go back in time:
5/3/1 with hypertrophy work assistance

Or starting strength.

I know what i would do…[/quote]

To be fair, complete beginners running 5/3/1 tend to run into issues with the percentage work.

When you’re only pressing 60lbs, you start finding they don’t make plates small enough for the necessary increases.

But at the same time, I would say someone who can only press that much should probably spend some time doing some basic athletic work/playing sports before they start lifting again.

147

[quote]knotginuwhine wrote:

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
If the goal is to get bigger/stronger and look better, I honestly see no reason for a beginner to do SS when they could start off with an intelligently designed 4 day body part split with 2 exercises per body part, using a lower rep range like 4-8 for compounds and 8-12 for isolations.

[/quote]

This that you just described.
I feel I plateaued with no plausible non-drug recourse doing this kind of thing.
No hard feelings just my experience.[/quote]

Huh? You were doing a 4 day split with 2-3 exercises per body part, 4-12 reps per set ramping up to one heavy all out set per exercise over 3-4 sets and plateaued? I thought you said you were “Weidering” 6 days a week and eating crap?

148

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:

[quote]knotginuwhine wrote:

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
If the goal is to get bigger/stronger and look better, I honestly see no reason for a beginner to do SS when they could start off with an intelligently designed 4 day body part split with 2 exercises per body part, using a lower rep range like 4-8 for compounds and 8-12 for isolations.

[/quote]

This that you just described.
I feel I plateaued with no plausible non-drug recourse doing this kind of thing.
No hard feelings just my experience.[/quote]

Huh? You were doing a 4 day split with 2-3 exercises per body part, 4-12 reps per set ramping up to one heavy all out set per exercise over 3-4 sets and plateaued? I thought you said you were “Weidering” 6 days a week and eating crap?[/quote]
I’m kind of old.
I tried lot’s of splits, push pull, upper-lower, body part, 3 day split were its like push upper/pull upper/lower, full body, HIT, DC, (though I must say DC worked like gangbusters I just found it not enjoyable), I stayed stuck till I started DL and squatting as life goals.
I’d say that perhaps I am the outlier, but then we would never be having this conversation because athletic oriented training wouldn’t be so in vogue, and I’d’ve never brought it up.

149

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
I can only repeat what I’ve stated in some other SS-critique thread:

One or two cycles of SS will be far, far better for the majority of aspiring bodybuilders then a 4 or 5 day split with lots of isolation.
On top of that, it is good athletical investment.

A few months without going deep with concentration curls won’t make the gods of iron cry.

[/quote]

this is long I’m sorry

I don’t understand this lots of isolation stuff? Bodybuilding splits ARE NOT all about the isolations.
They are about putting yourself at a mechanical disadvantage and using MIND MUSCLE CONNECTION during your workout all while keeping progressive overload in the picture meaning YES YOU DO WORK ON GETTING STRONGER.

on chest day I do one isolation movement ( I superset machine flys with decline hammerstrength machine pressing as a finisher.)

on back…I do no isolations for the back (have done pullovers in the past but I feel like these are best before doing compound lifts to build MMC)

For legs, I don’t even do any isolations currently in my routine. well except for my baby calves.

the only days I do exclusively isolations is on my arm days (minus hammerstrength dips) and shoulder days, which in my opinion is healthier for the shoulder and more conducive to better looking shoulders than heavy overhead pressing.

why do people put down isolations like they hinder your gains?

I do curls because my MMC with my back is so good my biceps barely feel like they have been touched

I do tricep isolations because when I do compound pressing I dont feel my long head being engaged at all unless it is prexausted

One more question why would I get some sort of advantage from doing a powerlifting oriented routine? Not to be disrespectful or anything, maybe this would help but from my logic I don’t see it being that beneficial and this is why…

If I add 50 pounds in 2 months to my bench because of some mechanical/leverage advantage but the main parts of my body that contributed to this strength increase were my triceps and shoulders then what is the point if I wanted a bigger chest?

I would much rather only add 10lbs in 2 months to my bench if it meant that I was putting the most focusing and using as much of my chest as possible during the pressing movement while minimizing the engagement of other muscles because more likely if my nutrition and recovery was on point this would lead to the most growth in my chest.[/quote]

YEP!!

150

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
I can only repeat what I’ve stated in some other SS-critique thread:

One or two cycles of SS will be far, far better for the majority of aspiring bodybuilders then a 4 or 5 day split with lots of isolation.
On top of that, it is good athletical investment.

A few months without going deep with concentration curls won’t make the gods of iron cry.

[/quote]

this is long I’m sorry

I don’t understand this lots of isolation stuff? Bodybuilding splits ARE NOT all about the isolations.
They are about putting yourself at a mechanical disadvantage and using MIND MUSCLE CONNECTION during your workout all while keeping progressive overload in the picture meaning YES YOU DO WORK ON GETTING STRONGER.

on chest day I do one isolation movement ( I superset machine flys with decline hammerstrength machine pressing as a finisher.)

on back…I do no isolations for the back (have done pullovers in the past but I feel like these are best before doing compound lifts to build MMC)

For legs, I don’t even do any isolations currently in my routine. well except for my baby calves.

the only days I do exclusively isolations is on my arm days (minus hammerstrength dips) and shoulder days, which in my opinion is healthier for the shoulder and more conducive to better looking shoulders than heavy overhead pressing.

why do people put down isolations like they hinder your gains?

I do curls because my MMC with my back is so good my biceps barely feel like they have been touched

I do tricep isolations because when I do compound pressing I dont feel my long head being engaged at all unless it is prexausted

One more question why would I get some sort of advantage from doing a powerlifting oriented routine? Not to be disrespectful or anything, maybe this would help but from my logic I don’t see it being that beneficial and this is why…

If I add 50 pounds in 2 months to my bench because of some mechanical/leverage advantage but the main parts of my body that contributed to this strength increase were my triceps and shoulders then what is the point if I wanted a bigger chest?

I would much rather only add 10lbs in 2 months to my bench if it meant that I was putting the most focusing and using as much of my chest as possible during the pressing movement while minimizing the engagement of other muscles because more likely if my nutrition and recovery was on point this would lead to the most growth in my chest.[/quote]
I can’t speak for everyone, just myself.
Speaking purely for myself I would not recommend isolation work to a beginer, only if one asked me I consider this conversation purely for fun and academia, I think you can get more out of your hormone production focusing on big movements and finishing with some pump if you have energy/time after you’ve done the big stuff.
I’m quite jealous of your MMC with your lats.
As far as benching close grip with an arch, my true honest answer, and this is gonna get flamed I’m sorry it’'s true; at least in part because it’s trendy.
It’s also doable for old people, I couldn’t bench anymore if I didn’t, my shoulders can’t do bb style anymore, not well anyway and I still like to press and I need my shoulders to do other things.
But, I agree not as much a chest exercise as anyone on a bb board would prefer.

151

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

To be fair, complete beginners running 5/3/1 tend to run into issues with the percentage work.

When you’re only pressing 60lbs, you start finding they don’t make plates small enough for the necessary increases.

But at the same time, I would say someone who can only press that much should probably spend some time doing some basic athletic work/playing sports before they start lifting again.
[/quote]

Good post.

I will also add that although Wendler disagrees (understandably so), that 531 is not a good program for the rank beginner. When you combine newbie gains with nailing technique, they will see their lifts sky rocket under the right conditions. A true beginner on 531 will be nailing 15+ reps on their money exercises a couple cycles in as their newbie gains explode and technique improves. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but the intensity is not there and the frequency of the “small increments” is not often enough for me to recommend it to a beginner.

Which is why I think Starting Strength is superior for a beginner than 531. Once he gets a bit of a base (4-6 months or so) 531 with hypertrophy focus (or whatever) is an excellent choice IMO.

152

[quote]knotginuwhine wrote:
I can’t speak for everyone, just myself.
I think you can get more out of your hormone production focusing on big movements and finishing with some pump…[/quote]

^^ Do you realize that this is virtually the EXACT same advice that the guys you are arguing against have suggested?

153

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

To be fair, complete beginners running 5/3/1 tend to run into issues with the percentage work.

When you’re only pressing 60lbs, you start finding they don’t make plates small enough for the necessary increases.

But at the same time, I would say someone who can only press that much should probably spend some time doing some basic athletic work/playing sports before they start lifting again.
[/quote]

Good post.

I will also add that although Wendler disagrees (understandably so), that 531 is not a good program for the rank beginner. When you combine newbie gains with nailing technique, they will see their lifts sky rocket under the right conditions. A true beginner on 531 will be nailing 15+ reps on their money exercises a couple cycles in as their newbie gains explode and technique improves. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but the intensity is not there and the frequency of the “small increments” is not often enough for me to recommend it to a beginner.

Which is why I think Starting Strength is superior for a beginner than 531. Once he gets a bit of a base (4-6 months or so) 531 with hypertrophy focus (or whatever) is an excellent choice IMO.

[/quote]

This is a good point about 5/3/1 percentages, but as far as SS being superior for a begining bber im not so sure. Why would a newb that wants to get big (yes arms too) want to wait six months (or even four weeks) to start doing curls, lateral raises, tricep extension and learning the proper form for these when he can start learning them NOW along with the main focus being on the big movements?

edited sp.

154

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

But at the same time, I would say someone who can only press that much should probably spend some time doing some basic athletic work/playing sports before they start lifting again.
[/quote]

Fuck that noise. There is no prerequisite for lifting.

155

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]optheta wrote:
Notice a trend in all those pictures? The guys start with defined abs then they are gone and they just look a little bit chubbier.[/quote]

I thought the bodybuilding forum was better than this :confused:

So it’s all about skinny guys keeping their abs year round and not having any muscle?[/quote]

I think the critiscism comes from the overyhyped gains that these guys are allegedly getting. I’m not looking at the pictures right now but I think I saw one guy that(supposedly) went from 180 to 210 and looks as if he just drank a bottle of soda and ate some potato chips. I have seen guys going up 5 or 10 pounds and they look a lot bigger, do you really believe that the difference between those photographs is 20-30 pounds?

156

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

To be fair, complete beginners running 5/3/1 tend to run into issues with the percentage work.

When you’re only pressing 60lbs, you start finding they don’t make plates small enough for the necessary increases.

But at the same time, I would say someone who can only press that much should probably spend some time doing some basic athletic work/playing sports before they start lifting again.
[/quote]

Good post.

I will also add that although Wendler disagrees (understandably so), that 531 is not a good program for the rank beginner. When you combine newbie gains with nailing technique, they will see their lifts sky rocket under the right conditions. A true beginner on 531 will be nailing 15+ reps on their money exercises a couple cycles in as their newbie gains explode and technique improves. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but the intensity is not there and the frequency of the “small increments” is not often enough for me to recommend it to a beginner.

Which is why I think Starting Strength is superior for a beginner than 531. Once he gets a bit of a base (4-6 months or so) 531 with hypertrophy focus (or whatever) is an excellent choice IMO.

[/quote]

This is a good point about 5/3/1 percentages, but as far as SS being superior for a begining bber im not so sure. Why would a newb that wants to get big (yes arms too) want to wait six months (or even four weeks) to start doing curls, lateral raises, tricep extension and learning the proper form for these when he can start learning them NOW along with the main focus being on the big movements?

edited sp.[/quote]

I didn’t say it was superior for BB, only that it was superior to 531 for beginners (in general).

Although I really do think it is a worthwhile investment to spend your time getting decently strong before worrying about the details. It is all about training economy. My personality is an all or nothing type. I believe a focused effort (blast) on one thing is better than trying to chase two rabbits. Which is why I advocate building up your strength base before anything else. And besides, if you are hammering bench and OHP 3x/week and gaining weight, you WILL see an increase in arm size.

Back in my younger years, when I really believed weightlifting was a 3 month pursuit (you know, gotta get jacked over summer or over holidays before spring break, etc.) I would probably agree with the “do both at once” approach. You know, since you will be all jacked in 3 months and can just coast from there. As I’ve gotten older and more experienced I have really started seeing this as more of a marathon than a sprint. You will have 30+ years (or more) of gym time to build an “aesthetically pleasing” physique. Is 4 months at the beginning to help you get ahead of your “competition” really all that much? Not in the grand scheme of things.

157

I’ll also add that I’ve never done a “lateral raise” in my life (and wouldnt really know the proper form to do one if I wanted to) and only do light triceps extensions for elbow health. Also managed to set my federation strict curl record (176 pounds) having only trained my biceps directly for like 4 months before the competition.

I have pretty big shoulders and 18+ inch arms. Its pretty obvious I lift even in a sweatshirt…But I’m just a fat fucking powerlifter, so take that with a grain of salt…

158

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

I have pretty big shoulders and 18+ inch arms. Its pretty obvious I lift even in a sweatshirt…But I’m just a fat fucking powerlifter, so take that with a grain of salt…[/quote]

Don’t worry we are…

159

[quote]optheta wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

I have pretty big shoulders and 18+ inch arms. Its pretty obvious I lift even in a sweatshirt…But I’m just a fat fucking powerlifter, so take that with a grain of salt…[/quote]

Don’t worry we are…[/quote]

That was addressed to grownups that actually know what they’re doing, not children that have been at this for nearly 4 years and have nothing to show for it.

160

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]optheta wrote:
Notice a trend in all those pictures? The guys start with defined abs then they are gone and they just look a little bit chubbier.[/quote]

I thought the bodybuilding forum was better than this :confused:

So it’s all about skinny guys keeping their abs year round and not having any muscle?[/quote]
It’s just easier to put him on ignore man. I learned that about 2 years ago haha. Dude’s a complete tool.