[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
The concept of “prerequisites for lifting” is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard, lol. People are going off the deep end with this shit…[/quote]
agree with this too.
I don’t understand. The first time I picked up a weight I couldn’t do a single pushup or pullup. I remember just the 45lb bar being a huge struggle. lifting changed this forever.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
The concept of “prerequisites for lifting” is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard, lol. People are going off the deep end with this shit…[/quote]
Just been my experience with training beginners. There is a vast difference in the capabilities of those with a sports background and those without. Dave Tate spoke about it here as well
"A raw novice’s time would be better spent doing bodyweight training. You should be able to perform 100 push-ups, minimum, before even approaching a bench press. Add in pull-ups, lunges, and the other bodyweight staples to complete the program.
After a decent base of bodyweight strength has been developed, I’d next perform a sensible linear progression routine until respectable strength levels are achieved. 5/3/1 by my friend Jim Wendler and Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe would fit the bill perfectly, with assistance work programmed to target any emerging weak points in size and strength.
However, after a certain threshold of development â?? say a 1.5 x bodyweight bench press, a 2 x bodyweight squat, and a 2.5 x bodyweight deadlift â?? it’s time to step it up."
And etc. Perhaps not your experience with training new lifters, but definitely mine.[/quote]
this is what I’d do brah. If I wasn’t so obnoxiously weak when I started then maybe I wouldn’t. Either way, it really doesn’t as noobs don’t stay noobs forever, and if they do it’s because they’re inconsistent or overanalyze things.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]browndisaster wrote:
I’ve had 3 shoulder surgeries, a robotic anakin skywalker arm put in, and do lateral raises 3x a week, but still there is just no hope for my aesthetics ever recovering.[/quote]
How much you curl with that arm, brah?[/quote]
it really depends, coach Kenobi said to really channel the MMC and control the weight, while coach Palpaltine said to go for max power and focus on progress. I’m confused by it, but regardless I mainly wish I started earlier.
I can’t believe that there’s so much debate about a novice strength training program. It’s meant to get you stronger not looking like Arnold. You squat 3 days a week adding 5 lbs per session you’ll go from the bar to an appreciable amount of weight pretty quickly and get a lot of practice for your squats. Once you’ve gotten what you can out of the program you move onto something else. It’s that simple and there’s no reason to make this tougher than it has to be. It’s one tool out of many out there to get someone who is currently very weak to being pretty strong.
And if he’s ruined any lives from GOMAD it’s because their too stupid to know that they shouldn’t be drinking that much milk a day. Does it work for a 16 year old kid who’s really skinny and wants to put on weight? Of course. Is the the best thing for someone who’s 25 and not quite as skinny? Probably not.
OP, congrats on the progress, that’s really great work.
james
[quote]gregron wrote:
^^first of all, LOL @ your avi. WTF? Haha
Secondly, I don’t know what page the pics are on but there were 3 or 4 very Unimpressive before and afters from SS users.
None of them would ever go up on online if SS was my program but that’s just me.[/quote]
HAHA yeah I lost a bet on the world series to DBCooper. New Year’s can’t come soon enough! I couldn’t see the pics on page 3 or 4, I’ll look through the thread more when I got time. Looking pretty sick btw dude!! Keep up the hard work!
[quote]optheta wrote:
[quote]johnman18 wrote:
^ I’ll be honest greg, I don’t even know what pictures you guys were talking about. I just know from my time on this website that “opetha” is a troll for the most part.[/quote]
its Optheta thank you very much, and really because I am a little mean and dickish I’m a troll?
Regardless, I think I can some up this thread. If you want to look like a BB then train like a BB.
/thread.[/quote]
No shit Sherlock…
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
The concept of “prerequisites for lifting” is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard, lol. People are going off the deep end with this shit…[/quote]
Aren’t you a personal trainer? You’re telling me you’ve never seen people that look like they are training there left glute when doing curls for the first time? or a person whose neck goes 90degrees on when they bench press? I would have to assume you started being active at a fairly young age and don’t appreciate the coordination and base you had before you started lifting.
To be honest even pro athletes have prereq’s before training camp. A list of certain things they should be able to accomplish before they are even allowed to do certain things. People crawl before they walk, and balance on their knees before they crawl.
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
The concept of “prerequisites for lifting” is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard, lol. People are going off the deep end with this shit…[/quote]
Aren’t you a personal trainer? You’re telling me you’ve never seen people that look like they are training there left glute when doing curls for the first time? or a person whose neck goes 90degrees on when they bench press? I would have to assume you started being active at a fairly young age and don’t appreciate the coordination and base you had before you started lifting.
To be honest even pro athletes have prereq’s before training camp. A list of certain things they should be able to accomplish before they are even allowed to do certain things. People crawl before they walk, and balance on their knees before they crawl.
[/quote]
True as that may be (and I’ve had my share of clients with terrible body awareness and coordination), I actually find that these types have a far more difficult time with body weight exercises like push-ups, pull-ups/chins, or even squats than they do with free weights. Think about it, with free weights it is possible to use very light weights (both in the absolute sense and relative to body weight), while with body weight you are pretty much stuck with using what you’ve got (sure you can increase or decrease leverage, or add assistance through bands, pulleys, or machines).
Are you guys are actually suggesting that someone who is unable to correctly perform a bench press with a 45 lb bar or a lat pull-down with 30 lbs of resistance is going to be better off starting with push-ups and chins? Because that seems totally backwards to me. I like body weight stuff because it teaches someone how to correctly coordinate their body parts together and can (at the higher levels) teach great body awareness/kinesthetic awareness and even build substantial amounts of strength (though, again, since this is the bbing forum I must say that they aren’t the best choice for bb’ers), but in my experience most newbies do not have the requisite strength to perform body weight exercises correctly and that free weights (or even machines in extremely deconditioned individuals) are a better starting point.
Perhaps your mileage differs.
I really wish I had started off doing SS. Would have gotten stronger wayyyy faster than the bullshit Muscle and Fitness routine I was doing for the first year of lifting.
If your really concerned about it I don’t get why it’s such a hard concept to just add in a few sets of curls/light tri stuff and maybe something for shoulder health 1 or 2 times a week. But I guess that would require critical thinking.
[quote]johnman18 wrote:
[quote]optheta wrote:
[quote]johnman18 wrote:
^ I’ll be honest greg, I don’t even know what pictures you guys were talking about. I just know from my time on this website that “opetha” is a troll for the most part.[/quote]
its Optheta thank you very much, and really because I am a little mean and dickish I’m a troll?
Regardless, I think I can some up this thread. If you want to look like a BB then train like a BB.
/thread.[/quote]
No shit Sherlock…
[/quote]
Well arn’t you a ray of sun shine?
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
The concept of “prerequisites for lifting” is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard, lol. People are going off the deep end with this shit…[/quote]
Aren’t you a personal trainer? You’re telling me you’ve never seen people that look like they are training there left glute when doing curls for the first time? or a person whose neck goes 90degrees on when they bench press? I would have to assume you started being active at a fairly young age and don’t appreciate the coordination and base you had before you started lifting.
To be honest even pro athletes have prereq’s before training camp. A list of certain things they should be able to accomplish before they are even allowed to do certain things. People crawl before they walk, and balance on their knees before they crawl.
[/quote]
True as that may be (and I’ve had my share of clients with terrible body awareness and coordination), I actually find that these types have a far more difficult time with body weight exercises like push-ups, pull-ups/chins, or even squats than they do with free weights. Think about it, with free weights it is possible to use very light weights (both in the absolute sense and relative to body weight), while with body weight you are pretty much stuck with using what you’ve got (sure you can increase or decrease leverage, or add assistance through bands, pulleys, or machines).
Are you guys are actually suggesting that someone who is unable to correctly perform a bench press with a 45 lb bar or a lat pull-down with 30 lbs of resistance is going to be better off starting with push-ups and chins? Because that seems totally backwards to me. I like body weight stuff because it teaches someone how to correctly coordinate their body parts together and can (at the higher levels) teach great body awareness/kinesthetic awareness and even build substantial amounts of strength (though, again, since this is the bbing forum I must say that they aren’t the best choice for bb’ers), but in my experience most newbies do not have the requisite strength to perform body weight exercises correctly and that free weights (or even machines in extremely deconditioned individuals) are a better starting point.
Perhaps your mileage differs.[/quote]
^^This.
Having “prerequisite levels of strength” is completely arbitrary. I was weak as shit when I started training and couldn’t do a dip or pull up and could barely bench the bar or squat 65lbs for a few reps. I started immediately with weights and I trained ALL my bodyparts on a BODYPART SPLIT and I had no issues with improving coordination and strength. As a result, my body GREW PROPORTIONALLY RIGHT FROM THE DAMN START and I never had any glaring imbalances or weaknesses. Never had to make any stupid ass threads on how to bring up my lagging bodyparts because I started with fking starting strength. Serious lol @ starting with “just becoming more active” or bodyweight exercises. Absolutely no provable reason why that’s a better idea.
Yes I’m a PT and I’ve trained/given routines to my fair share of beginners from teenagers to the elderly and they all do perfectly fine starting off lifting weights right away. Hence when I say things, I’m talking from my experiences with a good sized sample of the population, not just my own personal experiences, which is why some of the things being said in here just make no damn sense to me.
Why mess around doing minimal shit and neglecting training bodyparts for the sake of being new, when you can hit the ground running, get right into it, and start looking the way you really want to sooner? My 4 day beginner program works EXTREMELY well for my trainees. The ones that follow what I suggest to a T are progressing just like they should. F starting strength… Seriously… Don’t do that shit if your goals include looking as good as you possibly can.
As Maiden 3.16 stated I dont think there is any issue on doing both, in terms of compound movements and isolation especially for beginners who may not know at the time which route they want to delve into (BBing, PLing etc). Personally I feel it would benefit any beginner to have some modicum of a Strength base in the big 3 movements than simply doing isolation movements. I dont know why it has to be one or the other, Do your squats and then go do Leg extensions and Leg presses to get teh swolez on.
Also for some people on this thread who are not PLers and have no interest in it they still seem to think that the old adage of the fatass powerlifter rings true, this is a thing of the past. Hypertrophy work and even Bodybuilding days are a common part of popular PLing and Strength programs (i.e. 531 BBB, Juggernaut, Cube) Top Plers including Mark Bell and Brandon Lilly have stated that after your big lift, its time to STOP thinking like a PLer and think like a BBer. Many PLers have stated that its OK to look like you work out lol. So after your 3x3 Bench so many programs call for higher rep, hypertrophy based percentages for size and tendon strength.
Even guys that have chimed in on this thread (Gregron) competed in PLing and have an impressive physique to boot, another guy like Steel Nation who I believe competes in PLing or has competed is in very impressive physical shape.
I guess what Im trying to say is that the styles of weight lifting (PLing and BBIng) crossover much more than people realize and an athlete can take alot from both camps. With that being said I would not advocate for a beginner to JUST do the big 3 lifts and no isolation work…do both why not. I am a powerlifter, but I care how I look, after a OH press Ill be rocking a Meadows 6 way shoulder exercise, I do both and will always do it.
Sento and KB, you have both articulated your points well. I cannot say I agree, but I understand your reasoning, and we can simply agree to disagree.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
The concept of “prerequisites for lifting” is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard, lol. People are going off the deep end with this shit…[/quote]
Aren’t you a personal trainer? You’re telling me you’ve never seen people that look like they are training there left glute when doing curls for the first time? or a person whose neck goes 90degrees on when they bench press? I would have to assume you started being active at a fairly young age and don’t appreciate the coordination and base you had before you started lifting.
To be honest even pro athletes have prereq’s before training camp. A list of certain things they should be able to accomplish before they are even allowed to do certain things. People crawl before they walk, and balance on their knees before they crawl.
[/quote]
True as that may be (and I’ve had my share of clients with terrible body awareness and coordination), I actually find that these types have a far more difficult time with body weight exercises like push-ups, pull-ups/chins, or even squats than they do with free weights. Think about it, with free weights it is possible to use very light weights (both in the absolute sense and relative to body weight), while with body weight you are pretty much stuck with using what you’ve got (sure you can increase or decrease leverage, or add assistance through bands, pulleys, or machines).
Are you guys are actually suggesting that someone who is unable to correctly perform a bench press with a 45 lb bar or a lat pull-down with 30 lbs of resistance is going to be better off starting with push-ups and chins? Because that seems totally backwards to me. I like body weight stuff because it teaches someone how to correctly coordinate their body parts together and can (at the higher levels) teach great body awareness/kinesthetic awareness and even build substantial amounts of strength (though, again, since this is the bbing forum I must say that they aren’t the best choice for bb’ers), but in my experience most newbies do not have the requisite strength to perform body weight exercises correctly and that free weights (or even machines in extremely deconditioned individuals) are a better starting point.
Perhaps your mileage differs.[/quote]
I didn’t say they should do push ups or pull ups. I said they should have prerequisites or some form of a base. Which is where SS comes in. It’s 3 maybe 4 exercises, with power cleans being the most complicated. 3 months of watching your technique with 3 basic exercises is more likely to get a general population to a strong foundation for whatever you want to do later.
I’ve seen trainers go through a list of isolation exercises and guarantee the client forgot everything by the next session compared to a short period of benching, squatting and deadlifting 3 days a week. Of course like school if you just excel you can slowly start adding stuff, but writing a program that starts off complicated would not help the majority of people who read it.
This thread makes me sad.
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
The concept of “prerequisites for lifting” is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard, lol. People are going off the deep end with this shit…[/quote]
Aren’t you a personal trainer? You’re telling me you’ve never seen people that look like they are training there left glute when doing curls for the first time? or a person whose neck goes 90degrees on when they bench press? I would have to assume you started being active at a fairly young age and don’t appreciate the coordination and base you had before you started lifting.
To be honest even pro athletes have prereq’s before training camp. A list of certain things they should be able to accomplish before they are even allowed to do certain things. People crawl before they walk, and balance on their knees before they crawl.
[/quote]
True as that may be (and I’ve had my share of clients with terrible body awareness and coordination), I actually find that these types have a far more difficult time with body weight exercises like push-ups, pull-ups/chins, or even squats than they do with free weights. Think about it, with free weights it is possible to use very light weights (both in the absolute sense and relative to body weight), while with body weight you are pretty much stuck with using what you’ve got (sure you can increase or decrease leverage, or add assistance through bands, pulleys, or machines).
Are you guys are actually suggesting that someone who is unable to correctly perform a bench press with a 45 lb bar or a lat pull-down with 30 lbs of resistance is going to be better off starting with push-ups and chins? Because that seems totally backwards to me. I like body weight stuff because it teaches someone how to correctly coordinate their body parts together and can (at the higher levels) teach great body awareness/kinesthetic awareness and even build substantial amounts of strength (though, again, since this is the bbing forum I must say that they aren’t the best choice for bb’ers), but in my experience most newbies do not have the requisite strength to perform body weight exercises correctly and that free weights (or even machines in extremely deconditioned individuals) are a better starting point.
Perhaps your mileage differs.[/quote]
I didn’t say they should do push ups or pull ups. I said they should have prerequisites or some form of a base. Which is where SS comes in. It’s 3 maybe 4 exercises, with power cleans being the most complicated. 3 months of watching your technique with 3 basic exercises is more likely to get a general population to a strong foundation for whatever you want to do later.
I’ve seen trainers go through a list of isolation exercises and guarantee the client forgot everything by the next session compared to a short period of benching, squatting and deadlifting 3 days a week. Of course like school if you just excel you can slowly start adding stuff, but writing a program that starts off complicated would not help the majority of people who read it.[/quote]
No one ever said that anyone needed to do a list of isolation exercises
[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
The concept of “prerequisites for lifting” is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard, lol. People are going off the deep end with this shit…[/quote]
Aren’t you a personal trainer? You’re telling me you’ve never seen people that look like they are training there left glute when doing curls for the first time? or a person whose neck goes 90degrees on when they bench press? I would have to assume you started being active at a fairly young age and don’t appreciate the coordination and base you had before you started lifting.
To be honest even pro athletes have prereq’s before training camp. A list of certain things they should be able to accomplish before they are even allowed to do certain things. People crawl before they walk, and balance on their knees before they crawl.
[/quote]
True as that may be (and I’ve had my share of clients with terrible body awareness and coordination), I actually find that these types have a far more difficult time with body weight exercises like push-ups, pull-ups/chins, or even squats than they do with free weights. Think about it, with free weights it is possible to use very light weights (both in the absolute sense and relative to body weight), while with body weight you are pretty much stuck with using what you’ve got (sure you can increase or decrease leverage, or add assistance through bands, pulleys, or machines).
Are you guys are actually suggesting that someone who is unable to correctly perform a bench press with a 45 lb bar or a lat pull-down with 30 lbs of resistance is going to be better off starting with push-ups and chins? Because that seems totally backwards to me. I like body weight stuff because it teaches someone how to correctly coordinate their body parts together and can (at the higher levels) teach great body awareness/kinesthetic awareness and even build substantial amounts of strength (though, again, since this is the bbing forum I must say that they aren’t the best choice for bb’ers), but in my experience most newbies do not have the requisite strength to perform body weight exercises correctly and that free weights (or even machines in extremely deconditioned individuals) are a better starting point.
Perhaps your mileage differs.[/quote]
I didn’t say they should do push ups or pull ups. I said they should have prerequisites or some form of a base. Which is where SS comes in. It’s 3 maybe 4 exercises, with power cleans being the most complicated. 3 months of watching your technique with 3 basic exercises is more likely to get a general population to a strong foundation for whatever you want to do later.
I’ve seen trainers go through a list of isolation exercises and guarantee the client forgot everything by the next session compared to a short period of benching, squatting and deadlifting 3 days a week. Of course like school if you just excel you can slowly start adding stuff, but writing a program that starts off complicated would not help the majority of people who read it.[/quote]
No one ever said that anyone needed to do a list of isolation exercises[/quote]
actually the more I look at this the more it doesn’t make sense. This can very easily be overcome by keeping notes or a log
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]caveman101 wrote:
Ripptoes 5x5 and similar is great if you’re trying to coach a bunch of newbs and bring them up to at least BW x10 squats. But GOMAD is the biggest bullshit ever.[/quote]
Honestly, I’m a fan of the approach, because so many supposed “hard gainers” suddenly learn that they’re just full of shit when they actually force feed themselves a gallon of milk a day and that they’ve just been undereating.
I’ve done it before and it worked out well, but I was already lifting heavy and goal was strength. It is poorly implemented by many.
[/quote]
I guess even bad ideas sometimes have good merits. Milk tastes good too.
So this got to 8 pages? Why? People are stuck on their beliefs and the ad hominem attacks haven’t persuaded anyone to change their mind.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
The concept of “prerequisites for lifting” is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard, lol. People are going off the deep end with this shit…[/quote]
Aren’t you a personal trainer? You’re telling me you’ve never seen people that look like they are training there left glute when doing curls for the first time? or a person whose neck goes 90degrees on when they bench press? I would have to assume you started being active at a fairly young age and don’t appreciate the coordination and base you had before you started lifting.
To be honest even pro athletes have prereq’s before training camp. A list of certain things they should be able to accomplish before they are even allowed to do certain things. People crawl before they walk, and balance on their knees before they crawl.
[/quote]
True as that may be (and I’ve had my share of clients with terrible body awareness and coordination), I actually find that these types have a far more difficult time with body weight exercises like push-ups, pull-ups/chins, or even squats than they do with free weights. Think about it, with free weights it is possible to use very light weights (both in the absolute sense and relative to body weight), while with body weight you are pretty much stuck with using what you’ve got (sure you can increase or decrease leverage, or add assistance through bands, pulleys, or machines).
Are you guys are actually suggesting that someone who is unable to correctly perform a bench press with a 45 lb bar or a lat pull-down with 30 lbs of resistance is going to be better off starting with push-ups and chins? Because that seems totally backwards to me. I like body weight stuff because it teaches someone how to correctly coordinate their body parts together and can (at the higher levels) teach great body awareness/kinesthetic awareness and even build substantial amounts of strength (though, again, since this is the bbing forum I must say that they aren’t the best choice for bb’ers), but in my experience most newbies do not have the requisite strength to perform body weight exercises correctly and that free weights (or even machines in extremely deconditioned individuals) are a better starting point.
Perhaps your mileage differs.[/quote]
Amen. Starting people out with pushups is an exercise in utter futility. None of them can ever perform one through the full range of motion, and they lack the core strength to stabilize themselves 99 times out of 100. Give them some back support and light dumbells, however, and you can get them progressing much faster.