Lesnar has a lot of skill wrestling. The rest of his game is horrible, and his fighting is painful to watch with how poor he is. His size and strength are his bread and butter.
How do they fail? Because they don’t win the fight? I’d be willing to bet more strikes fail in that regard then.
Bas Rutten, hardly a little guy, has more wins via submission than by knockout. You were saying?
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Bob Sapp is a huge and ferocious negro, but he has a fairly weak chin. Like many of his tribe, he comes out aggressively but goes downhill fast once his opponents start landing a few hits on him. Cro Cop is very agile, swift, and quite strong for his size, so he was able to keep up with Bob. I attribute his victory to physical prowess, not technical ability.
[/quote]
Specific physical prowess, is of course, born through training as well as gifted to some. The same with the understanding of “physics” that you purport. BTW I wonder if you’d address Mr. Bob Sapp that way to his face?
The way I see it:
Gorilla > chimp > MMA specialists > mariusz > ordinary MMA fighter > average human being
NP, you fun-nee :))
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
A_l3x wrote:
^^ heres a few
Emelianenko Fedor vs Hong-Man Choi
BROCK LESNAR V FRANK MIR
Mirko Cro Cop vs Bob Sapp
That’s good. I don’t follow this sport closely but I’m familiar with the examples you posted. You can post more if you’d like.
The guy who fought Fedor was clumsy. You can tell just by the way he moved. He probably has acromegaly or something of that nature, and obviously isn’t the best example of this trend. People who are clumsy can’t harness their own strength and power correctly.
In Lesnar vs. Mir, which I did watch in its entirety, Lesnar completely dominated the fight until Mir managed to pull off the lucky submission. Here’s the scoop on submissions: If you have to rely on them to save your ass, you are going to get raped more often than not. The vast majority of submission attempts fail (that’s a statistical fact, not my opinion). Submission is the most over-rated aspect of any fighter’s ability. It is basically completely unnecessary and that’s why most guys who specialize in it are smaller. Only the little guys love to pull all the bullshit karate moves. That stuff practically never works the way it’s supposed to in a real fight, it only works in practice. Lesnar basically won that fight, in my opinion. Another minute or two and Mir would have been knocked out. He got very lucky.
Bob Sapp is a huge and ferocious negro, but he has a fairly weak chin. Like many of his tribe, he comes out aggressively but goes downhill fast once his opponents start landing a few hits on him. Cro Cop is very agile, swift, and quite strong for his size, so he was able to keep up with Bob. I attribute his victory to physical prowess, not technical ability.
But speaking of Sapp, didn’t he nearly kill some experienced Pride fighters? I don’t even know what the nicknames stand for, but someone said he gave Nog (Nogeira) a good pounding.
As I said, a weak chin will take anyone down, no matter how big they are. But a big man with a decent chin has the advantage in any fight, regardless of how technically proficient his opponent is.
“all of that bullshit leaves your head in 2 seconds flat when someone punches you in the face” is a ridiculous assumption. That’s why fighters train for months on end genius, so it’s not a “shock” when they get punched in the face. That’s also why there’s cornermen and gameplans.
I watch the fights and I see the expressions on their faces. I see how they come out looking as hard as bulldogs and then by the end of the fight, either one or both of them turn into puppies. I’ve seen it time and again. You are promoting a piece of mythology that makes fighting seem a lot more complex than it is. 98% of fighting comes down to physics and attitude. Attitude is something that people are born with. You don’t develop it in training. But naturally, “professionals” and the organizations who sponsor them always have a vested interest in making things look harder than they seem.
It’s true with doctors, lawyers, accountants, and yes, brawlers, too.
"It doesnt matter how much you can bench if you don’t know how to escape from side control. "
Lol, I’m sorry, but “side control” is a joke. It’s largely an invented concept, much like all that “ground guard” bullshit. Some asshole got knocked onto his back in training one day and put his legs around his opponent, and presto! The “guard” was born. Because nobody had ever done that before in a fight.
For this reason, I love listening to the commentary on UFC. These guy know all the terms, and they’re paid to endorse these phoney concepts of technical proficiency. Whenever Joe Rogan yells, “Oh no, It’s looking pretty for [insert fighter], he’s in an arm bar!” I know that 8 out of 10 times, the guy who is “trapped” is going to break free in about 3 seconds. I keep an informal count of this in my head. It’s funny to see how wrong they are with their predictions.
Don’t you people get it? It’s all marketing. There is no such thing as “side control”. There is no such thing as a “guard”. All there is is fists in your face.[/quote]
I actually agree with what he’s saying. But it’s easy to misinterpret it into something else.
Fighters are born not made. You guys think Mike Tyson was who he was because of some killer technique or moves he practiced with a secret guru? He was who he was because he was born with a talent for fighting and was strong as an ox. Those two things combined with a singular mind was what it took.
[quote]A_l3x wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
who knows, anything is possible i mean Brock Lesnar is the UFC Heavyweight champ right now you know if Mariusz got in the UFC thatd be like his 3rd fight.
Yeah but Lesnar has a lot of skill and is a very good fighter, people just didnt know it because of the WWE shit.
If MP had a good few years to get a ground game etc this would be a diff convo we would all be having, the point is strength alone isnt enough.[/quote]
LEsnar would be nothing without his size though, can we both agree on that? he has some alright skill but lets call a spade a spade and acknowledge that most of his ability comes from his size.
i train for bodybuilding, i love Lesnar, i love seeing the big guys win and take the spotlight. but even with Lesnar’s impressive wrestling background he’s not that technically solid. doesnt mean he cant just take you down and crush you though.
until something actually happens its all mere speculation. id love to see him fight, id love to see him put someone in an armbar just to shut me up about his lack of technical skills. i wonder how many more Beheamoths will switch sides and maybe theyll even be a new Megaweight class for all these 250+ pounders to do battle in.
[quote]Gregus wrote:
I actually agree with what he’s saying. But it’s easy to misinterpret it into something else.
Fighters are born not made. You guys think Mike Tyson was who he was because of some killer technique or moves he practiced with a secret guru? He was who he was because he was born with a talent for fighting and was strong as an ox. Those two things combined with a singular mind was what it took.
[/quote]
I think people put WAYYYYYY to much emphasis on genetics, yes i do believe some people my have a greater predisposition for something than someone else but what will win you the fight is the hours you spend training for it (SKILL), the psychological aspects and your hunger to win NOT genetics. We can only speculate that Tyson was born a fighter but what we DO KNOW is he trained like an animal and had sick skills.
Its like the old debate with the 100m sprint finals being made up of black runners…" black people have a running gene etc…", in the last olympics GB got most there golds from rowing, cycling and sailing all sports that people sit down in…maybe we brits have some good genes in our ass?(i know its stupid example but its the point im making more)
lol @ Lesnar being “unskilled” and “painful to watch” and relying solely on “size”.
What about exceptional speed, explosiveness, agility and athleticism? He’s a freak of nature and a born fighter. He doesn’t need to jump into rubber guard to impress you. Too fucking bad.
Technically, he has improved very much between the Herring and Couture fights and he will continue to get better.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
A_l3x wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
who knows, anything is possible i mean Brock Lesnar is the UFC Heavyweight champ right now you know if Mariusz got in the UFC thatd be like his 3rd fight.
Yeah but Lesnar has a lot of skill and is a very good fighter, people just didnt know it because of the WWE shit.
If MP had a good few years to get a ground game etc this would be a diff convo we would all be having, the point is strength alone isnt enough.
LEsnar would be nothing without his size though, can we both agree on that? he has some alright skill but lets call a spade a spade and acknowledge that most of his ability comes from his size.
i train for bodybuilding, i love Lesnar, i love seeing the big guys win and take the spotlight. but even with Lesnar’s impressive wrestling background he’s not that technically solid. doesnt mean he cant just take you down and crush you though.
until something actually happens its all mere speculation. id love to see him fight, id love to see him put someone in an armbar just to shut me up about his lack of technical skills. i wonder how many more Beheamoths will switch sides and maybe theyll even be a new Megaweight class for all these 250+ pounders to do battle in.[/quote]
Tho i understand where your coming from Lesnars biggest strength is his strength and no i dont think he would be where he is if he didnt have it BUT ask yourself would he even be in the ring/cage if he didnt have the skills he has (no matter how little they are.
If you watch Lesnars first fight which he won on GNP he established a very good mount from half guard, its not that easy.
Brock was NCAA Wrestling Champion, that sort of wrestling plays a good role in MMA, tho this is my opinion i think brock would be more at a loss without this experience/skill than without his strength but he has both so thats why is able to hold his own…for now. lol
[quote]A_l3x wrote:
Gregus wrote:
I actually agree with what he’s saying. But it’s easy to misinterpret it into something else.
Fighters are born not made. You guys think Mike Tyson was who he was because of some killer technique or moves he practiced with a secret guru? He was who he was because he was born with a talent for fighting and was strong as an ox. Those two things combined with a singular mind was what it took.
I think people put WAYYYYYY to much emphasis on genetics, yes i do believe some people my have a greater predisposition for something than someone else but what will win you the fight is the hours you spend training for it (SKILL), the psychological aspects and your hunger to win NOT genetics. We can only speculate that Tyson was born a fighter but what we DO KNOW is he trained like an animal and had sick skills.
Its like the old debate with the 100m sprint finals being made up of black runners…" black people have a running gene etc…", in the last olympics GB got most there golds from rowing, cycling and sailing all sports that people sit down in…maybe we brits have some good genes in our ass?(i know its stupid example but its the point im making more)[/quote]
But to counter that argument, you can say that no matter how much time you spend in the gym, no matter how hungry you are, you will never be like Schwarzenegger or even close. Why? Genetics.
I believe genetics are everything. Even the genetics that make up your psychology will dictate how easy it will be to motivate yourself to do something.
Genetics is a new word for natural talent. Without talent for a certain discipline you will not suceed no matter how hard you work at it.
Try to take a tone deaf person and make them into a musician. You can’t.
Take a natural poet and make them into a physicist, you can’t.
Take a big hipped girl and make her into a sprinter. She’ll run, but no where near the capabilities of a woman with an athletic frame.
Anyone can improve in a certain discipline, but those who take it to the top are naturally talented to begin with.
I just wanted to comment that a 4th kyu is NOT a 4th degree black belt. Kyu grades are the ranks below black belt. In many martial arts, the grades below black belt start with 10th or 9th kyu until 1st kyu, then black belt 1st dan, 2nd dan, etc.
Sorry, I don’t have anything to offer to the debate. I just wanted to point out the discrepency above.
[quote]Jack_Dempsey wrote:
lol @ Lesnar being “unskilled” and “painful to watch” and relying solely on “size”.
What about exceptional speed, explosiveness, agility and athleticism? He’s a freak of nature and a born fighter. He doesn’t need to jump into rubber guard to impress you. Too fucking bad.[/quote]
lol @ you for being glued to Lesnar’s sack.
Except for his wrestling, he is quite unskilled. He is no good at boxing, he’s no good at muay thai, and he’s no good at BJJ.
Yeah, he’s big and fast, and that’s what makes it even MORE painful to watch. Instead of supplementing a good fighting game with his athleticism, he ekes by solely because of it.
He probably will be good eventually, just not yet though.
While I agree that fighters are born not made, technical skill is far more important than strength alone. When you combine the two you’ve got a dangerous man. And, for the record Lesnar is awful. He’s obviously a good wrestler and he’s strong as an ox, but he’s horrible everywhere else.
It’s painful to watch him have someone on their back and and graze them with 2" hammer fists like he’s having an epileptic seizure. If he had more skill he’d actually land those or even better throw an actual punch from the mount.
Also, Nominal Prospect is either fucking with everyone or he’s the world’s biggest moron.
[quote]A_l3x wrote:
Its like the old debate with the 100m sprint finals being made up of black runners…" black people have a running gene etc…", in the last olympics GB got most there golds from rowing, cycling and sailing all sports that people sit down in…maybe we brits have some good genes in our ass?(i know its stupid example but its the point im making more)[/quote]
It is a stupid example, because sprinting is a thresh-hold sport which relies on two or three attributes which you need to develop to the extreme. In addition to that, it is a very popular sport, in which a large number of people with different genetics partake in. Rowing is neither. The only thing that matters in sprinting is pure speed/acceleration, and even being genetically disposed to run that distance 3-4% faster than someone else will be a massive advantage at the elite level.
Taking a look at the top 10 100m times of all time will certainly make it clear that a very small minority of a certain group is blessed for the PARTICULAR sport.
[quote]Ronsauce wrote:
Jack_Dempsey wrote:
lol @ Lesnar being “unskilled” and “painful to watch” and relying solely on “size”.
What about exceptional speed, explosiveness, agility and athleticism? He’s a freak of nature and a born fighter. He doesn’t need to jump into rubber guard to impress you. Too fucking bad.
lol @ you for being glued to Lesnar’s sack.
Except for his wrestling, he is quite unskilled. He is no good at boxing, he’s no good at muay thai, and he’s no good at BJJ.
Yeah, he’s big and fast, and that’s what makes it even MORE painful to watch. Instead of supplementing a good fighting game with his athleticism, he ekes by solely because of it.
He probably will be good eventually, just not yet though.
[/quote]
I would not want to fight Lesnar in a boxing or kickboxing match, and I suspect there’s very few professional MMA fighters that would want to, also. He has a serious right hand and also seems to have very good hand-to-eye coordination and reflexes for a man of his size.
[quote]Nikiforos wrote:
Ronsauce wrote:
Jack_Dempsey wrote:
lol @ Lesnar being “unskilled” and “painful to watch” and relying solely on “size”.
What about exceptional speed, explosiveness, agility and athleticism? He’s a freak of nature and a born fighter. He doesn’t need to jump into rubber guard to impress you. Too fucking bad.
lol @ you for being glued to Lesnar’s sack.
Except for his wrestling, he is quite unskilled. He is no good at boxing, he’s no good at muay thai, and he’s no good at BJJ.
Yeah, he’s big and fast, and that’s what makes it even MORE painful to watch. Instead of supplementing a good fighting game with his athleticism, he ekes by solely because of it.
He probably will be good eventually, just not yet though.
I would not want to fight Lesnar in a boxing or kickboxing match, and I suspect there’s very few professional MMA fighters that would want to, also. He has a serious right hand and also seems to have very good hand-to-eye coordination and reflexes for a man of his size.
[/quote]
He will never be Sugar Ray Robinson, but his punching was improved during the Couture fight. He was throwing some combinations and dropped Couture with a right with his horrible boxing.
His submissions and ground game continue to get better.
Even if he turned into Machado on the ground and Tyson standing there will be a bunch of people on the internet – mostly 5’4 120 lb’ers – bitter than he even got into MMA.
ON TOPIC, Polish gossip columns on Pudz in MMA?:
Can anyone read Polish?
[quote]Nikiforos wrote:I would not want to fight Lesnar in a boxing or kickboxing match, and I suspect there’s very few professional MMA fighters that would want to
[/quote]
Fair enough, but they wouldn’t want to because of his size, NOT because of his skill.
Not so much. I think the bitter folks would be the heavyweights who would have to contend with him. Thinking that small guys have a beef with Lesnar simply because he’s big is pretty misguided.
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Since I was a six year old in kindergarden, I’ve been distinctly aware that I was different from the other kids on the playground. [/quote]
A 6 year old in kindergarten? You’re right, you were different from the other kids…apparently you are developmentally challeged, rode the short bus to school, and wore a helmet.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
You honestly have NO IDEA of what you’re talking about. NONE.
[/quote]
Combat sports hasnt had to deal with this guy yet I take it.
Back on topic though…
IF Pudz has some degree of skill when it comes to fighting, he will be a force to be reckoned with. Whoever it was that said he needs metabolic conditioning has obviously never had any first hand experience with strongman.
It is not a pure strength sport and there is a high degree of conditioning required in addition to strength. This is why you see top strongmen cross over and do well in powerlifting, but the opposite is not usually the case, as even though elite level powerlifters may be stronger, they lack the conditioning and endurance to succeed at strongman.
Also, if you look at the competitions that Pudz tends to do well in, they tend to be “lighter” in terms of weights and more speed and conditioning based. The Arnold strongman contest, compared to WSM is much more geared towards absolute strength and this is why Zydrunas wipes the floor with Pudz’s ass at the Arnold.
To summarize:
Checklist for an unstoppable fighter-
Size- Pudz weighs in the low 300’s, check
Strength, mobility, conditioning- Mariusz Pudzianowski Tribute - YouTube CHECK
Tactical skills- jury is out
Pudzianowski is definitely stronger than Lesnar but unless Pudz can wrestle or adequately defend the take down Lesnar crush him
[quote]Ronsauce wrote:
Lesnar has a lot of skill wrestling. The rest of his game is horrible, and his fighting is painful to watch with how poor he is. His size and strength are his bread and butter.
Nominal Prospect wrote: Here’s the scoop on submissions: If you have to rely on them to save your ass, you are going to get raped more often than not. The vast majority of submission attempts fail (that’s a statistical fact, not my opinion).
How do they fail? Because they don’t win the fight? I’d be willing to bet more strikes fail in that regard then.
[/quote]
Yeah, but the difference between strikes and subs is that a strike doesn’t have to knock someone out in order to be successful. If you swing at someone and you land, you have done damage to him. And a fighter can only take so much damage in one fight.
A failed submission, on the other hand, usually won’t damage the opponent but will use up a lot of energy for the guy who tried to pull it off. Not to mention, it will demoralize him and invigorate his opponent.
Relying on submission is like gambling with your life. Not saying that fighters shouldn’t know how to submit an opponent in the rare instances where they have a good chance of success, but that’s 1% of the game. You have to focus on the other 99% if you want to survive.
“NO YOUR WRONGE, MIR SAW AN OPENING AND USED IT, THAT IS SKIL”
It took skill on his part, no doubt, but it still doesn’t change the fact that he got lucky, on a purely statistical basis. Mir is a big boned guy himself which is probably the only reason he was able to last as long as he did, and he was in pretty bad shape after those two minutes.
“ONE WORD, GRACIE, ONE OF THE BEST FIGHTERS OF ALL TIME BASED ON SUBMISSIONS”
Huh? I thought the Graycie invincibility myth was shattered long ago. Again, I don’t really follow the sport closely, but my impression was that they built their reputation in the very early days of the UFC but once the sport got bigger they could never really hold their own against newer fighters.
For all the hype they are pretty one dimensional, much like your typical karate guy only they like to do it on the ground. How come no Graycie has fought Fedor, Arlovski, Sapp, Syvlia or any other big and strong guy (or have they)? They all seem to have disappeared from the sport.
“THATS WHY MORE MMA FIGHT ARE WON BY SUBMISSIONS THAN (FACT, NOT MY OPINION), YOU WONT FIND A HIGH LEVEL OR LOW LEVEL MMA FIGHTRE WHO HASNT A GROUND GAME”
Since when is “ground game” equivalent to judo submission bs? Ground game is just wrestling with a good bit of striking thrown in (albeit non-technical striking). Yeah, plenty of fighters tap out on the ground. But the majority do it not because of a sub, but because they got their brains bashed in with fists and knees.
“TO ACHIEVE A KICK THAT WAS POWERFULL ENOUGH TO BREAK SAPPS RIBS (REMEMBER SAPP ISNT SOME GUY OFF THE STREETS) TAKES A LOT OF SKILL ( I CANT SQUAT FOR SHIT YET I HAVE KO’ED A DOORMAN A LOT BIGGER THAN ME WITH A HEAD KICK), THAT KICK LANDED WHERE HE WANTED IT TOO AT THE EXACT RIGHT TIME, THAT IS SKILL”
It’s called power. It is a physical attribute and you better believe having physics on your side helps more than anything else.
“THAT BECAUSE FOR EVERY SUBMISSION THERE IS A COUNTER AND A COUNTER TO THAT BUT AGAIN IS THEM NOT ESCAPING NOT SKILL?”
At the end of the day, it’s a numbers game. You judge fighting techniques by their effectiveness in the ring, not on the practice mat. Submission attempts have a piss-poor record of success. No need to analyze it further than that.