Maiquel Falco Brawl Video

Training
41

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Spooner21 wrote:
is an argument this elaborate really needed? a guy snuck up from behind him and hit him in the head with a bat. show me any martial art thats going to defend against that, looked like they were handling themselves pretty well up until that point[/quote]

Actually it was his buddy that got snuck up on and hit over the head with the bat (this was actually mentioned earlier in the thread). Falco saw the stick wielding attacker coming, but didn’t look like he knew how to deal with the oncoming attack effectively and thus got overwhelmed and KO’d.

Again though, the most important point is the fact that Falco and his friend were acting like “tough guy” MMA fighters and thus chose to stick around and prove how tough they were (and paid the price for doing so) instead of hitting first, hard, and then getting the hell out of there the first chance they got, or just not acting like disrespectful punks in the first place.[/quote]

i know who it was that got hit, i read about this story a while ago before seeing this video. you guys are turning a molehill into a mountain. i dont know if you’ve heard of a thing called testosterone and pride, it makes a male do stupid things. they’re not the first two to fight a group of guys by themselves, but because they’re mma fighters they get held to a higher standard. most mma fighters were troubled youth and “street fighters” before they got into mma, many have been incarcerated, in gangs, grew up in violent upbringings and neighborhoods. then you expect them to run away when confronted by a bunch of scrubs in a gas station.

did they make the best choice? in hindsight clearly not. you dont need to have a huge debate on street fight tactics and all that shit over something as trivial as a couple guys starting a fight. i, like many others who get into fighting, got in trouble and fought alot as a kid. any street fight ive seen and been in has been 1 on 1 with the exception of 1 bar brawl. i have yet to see krav maga work, or kung fu or any of that crap. if you can find a video gladly show me. how about the video of the boxer taking out 4 guys coming after him? how about the boxer knocking the 2 guys out who hit his girlfriend? how about justin mccully taking out a guy with a gun to his head how about lee murray and how badly he fucked guys up?

i saw a wrestler throw a kid literally 10 times in a row in a street fight. or how about alistair overeem sending 5 bouncers in a nightclub to the hospital? or badr hari doing the same thing. how about nick ring chasing off a group of 10 guys who jumped somebody? or the 70 yearold boxer who beat up 2 guys trying to break into his house? do you want me to keep going? keep stressing out over your weapons tactics and positioning and all that bs in the unlikely event anyone ever attacks you from behind with a baseball bat. you’ve got a better chance of drowning in the tub.

42

[quote]Spooner21 wrote:
keep stressing out over your weapons tactics and positioning and all that bs in the unlikely event anyone ever attacks you from behind with a baseball bat. you’ve got a better chance of drowning in the tub.[/quote]

Impossible cause I train weekly in BMA and I wear floaters.

43

[quote]Spooner21 wrote:
i know who it was that got hit, i read about this story a while ago before seeing this video. you guys are turning a molehill into a mountain. i dont know if you’ve heard of a thing called testosterone and pride, it makes a male do stupid things. they’re not the first two to fight a group of guys by themselves, but because they’re mma fighters they get held to a higher standard. most mma fighters were troubled youth and “street fighters” before they got into mma, many have been incarcerated, in gangs, grew up in violent upbringings and neighborhoods. then you expect them to run away when confronted by a bunch of scrubs in a gas station.
[/quote]

Well if you know who it was that got hit, then why did you say that Falco got blindsided by the guy with the bat?

And sorry but that’s a really weak argument. You mean to tell me that all of us makes who possess testosterone are somehow force to assault women like Falco did? No, sorry, that was his choice, he was not the victim of his hormones. Nor did he have to act like a “tough guy” and stick around to take on a bunch of opponents.

See, my whole point is that MMA failed Falco in terms of developing his character, moral compass, and understanding of the why’s and when’s to fight. Unfortunately this “tough guy” attitude is something that is almost revered within MMA these days. I already mentioned the phenomenon of the “stare down” and how if someone refuses to allow someone to basically get face to face contact with them they are somehow seen as “weak” or “a pussy”, when in reality it’s a terrible habit to develop. Others have ranted about the “Tapout” phenomenon in other threads and I agree that it is quite annoying, but the truth is that if this hyper masculine ideal wasn’t being marketed and re-enforced by the MMA industry as a whole these Tapout types would not be acting like such punks.

I’m not saying this is the case across the board though as you still have coaches and fighters who remain true to the ideals that Martial Arts were meant to stand for; honor, loyalty, rectitude/morality, etiquette/politeness, courage (which might mean the courage to know when to walk away at times), and benevolence. Or, as we define them: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self control.

I don’t care if Falco and his buddy had trounced all of those guys, that would still have been the wrong course of action. The fact that they did not just gives is some examples of things not to do on top of their poor decision making skills.

And did I ever say that punching people doesn’t work? Did I not say that boxing does a great job of teaching people how to punch effectively? No, I said nothing of the sort. Again, I have trained with world champion strikers, my instructors have trained with some of the best in the world and even sparred with and trained with THE BEST pound for pound boxer of all time! I know the virtues that boxing has; I teach it, continue to train it, and advise people learn it. That doesn’t mean though that I cannot recognize that it has huge holes in it in terms of preparing someone for real world violence though.

Why are people always so black and white about this subject? Did I not already say wrestling teaches effective takedowns/throws? Did I ever suggest anyone not learn boxing or wrestling?

Look, you gave me a couple of examples of people effectively using wrestling and boxing against unarmed guys, great who ever said that those skills can’t be effective? Weapons are a very real and common reality in street violence and thinking that simply because you cannot prevent every single type of attack (like being completely ambushed and shot or smashed over the head with a bat from behind) means that training to defend against weapons is unnecessary makes no sense at all. Guess what? You can’t defend against someone sucker punching you from behind either, so I guess that means we shouldn’t learn how to defend against any punches. Oh, and you can’t punch somebody if the walk up and grab you from behind and take you down, so I guess punching is out too. Looks like boxing is a useless skill after all [sarcasm/].

44

again, i know who it was that got hit. i never said it was falco. im going to try and keep this as short as possible, because after accusing you of turning molehills into mountains i dont want to start doing it myself. im going to be honest, i hardly read anything you wrote, thats ridiculous, im not reading all that. if i were to sit here and reply to every point in there this would escalate into a months long debate over something as stupid and trivial as a street fight. i feel like im in grade 8 again. like are you walking around compton with a swaztika on your forehead? you know what, im not even going to bother. TMA’s take the cake again, best fighters on the planet. you win.

45

[quote]Spooner21 wrote:
again, i know who it was that got hit. i never said it was falco. im going to try and keep this as short as possible, because after accusing you of turning molehills into mountains i dont want to start doing it myself. im going to be honest, i hardly read anything you wrote, thats ridiculous, im not reading all that. if i were to sit here and reply to every point in there this would escalate into a months long debate over something as stupid and trivial as a street fight. i feel like im in grade 8 again. like are you walking around compton with a swaztika on your forehead? you know what, im not even going to bother. TMA’s take the cake again, best fighters on the planet. you win.[/quote]

We have a winner. Sento is a Nazi.

46

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
We have a winner. Sento is a Nazi.[/quote]

47

[quote]Spooner21 wrote:
again, i know who it was that got hit. i never said it was falco. im going to try and keep this as short as possible, because after accusing you of turning molehills into mountains i dont want to start doing it myself. im going to be honest, i hardly read anything you wrote, thats ridiculous, im not reading all that. if i were to sit here and reply to every point in there this would escalate into a months long debate over something as stupid and trivial as a street fight. i feel like im in grade 8 again. like are you walking around compton with a swaztika on your forehead? you know what, im not even going to bother. TMA’s take the cake again, best fighters on the planet. you win.[/quote]

Dude, I’ve seen TMA guys take on dozens of boards single handedly on numerous occasions and win; they are clearly the best. :stuck_out_tongue:

48

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]Spooner21 wrote:
again, i know who it was that got hit. i never said it was falco. im going to try and keep this as short as possible, because after accusing you of turning molehills into mountains i dont want to start doing it myself. im going to be honest, i hardly read anything you wrote, thats ridiculous, im not reading all that. if i were to sit here and reply to every point in there this would escalate into a months long debate over something as stupid and trivial as a street fight. i feel like im in grade 8 again. like are you walking around compton with a swaztika on your forehead? you know what, im not even going to bother. TMA’s take the cake again, best fighters on the planet. you win.[/quote]

We have a winner. Sento is a Nazi.[/quote]

NO SOUP FOR YOU!

49

[quote]Spooner21 wrote:

i know who it was that got hit, i read about this story a while ago before seeing this video. you guys are turning a molehill into a mountain. i dont know if you’ve heard of a thing called testosterone and pride, it makes a male do stupid things. they’re not the first two to fight a group of guys by themselves, but because they’re mma fighters they get held to a higher standard. most mma fighters were troubled youth and “street fighters” before they got into mma, many have been incarcerated, in gangs, grew up in violent upbringings and neighborhoods. then you expect them to run away when confronted by a bunch of scrubs in a gas station.

did they make the best choice? in hindsight clearly not. you dont need to have a huge debate on street fight tactics and all that shit over something as trivial as a couple guys starting a fight. i, like many others who get into fighting, got in trouble and fought alot as a kid. any street fight ive seen and been in has been 1 on 1 with the exception of 1 bar brawl. i have yet to see krav maga work, or kung fu or any of that crap. if you can find a video gladly show me. how about the video of the boxer taking out 4 guys coming after him? how about the boxer knocking the 2 guys out who hit his girlfriend? how about justin mccully taking out a guy with a gun to his head how about lee murray and how badly he fucked guys up?

i saw a wrestler throw a kid literally 10 times in a row in a street fight. or how about alistair overeem sending 5 bouncers in a nightclub to the hospital? or badr hari doing the same thing. how about nick ring chasing off a group of 10 guys who jumped somebody? or the 70 yearold boxer who beat up 2 guys trying to break into his house? do you want me to keep going? keep stressing out over your weapons tactics and positioning and all that bs in the unlikely event anyone ever attacks you from behind with a baseball bat. you’ve got a better chance of drowning in the tub.[/quote]

While I do tend to agree with you about the sport fighting - I refuse to believe that there is better training for fighting than fighting - Sento is right about weapons.

They are a very real reality if you’re living “in the boomtown” so to speak, and I have been involved in a number of fights where improvised weapons were featured prominently - everything from pint glasses to beer bottles to tiki torches to a pool ball in a sock to a fork. One guy I used to know had a massive scar running down the back of his head from where he got hit with a brick when he was younger.

I got hit with a full beer bottle once, almost ended my enjoyable habit of having two working eyes.

Also, most altercations I was in after the age of 14 were more than 1-on-1.

So, while Sento and I disagree on how one should train to effectively defend themselves, we don’t disagree about the tenets of the fight.

50

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Spooner21 wrote:

i know who it was that got hit, i read about this story a while ago before seeing this video. you guys are turning a molehill into a mountain. i dont know if you’ve heard of a thing called testosterone and pride, it makes a male do stupid things. they’re not the first two to fight a group of guys by themselves, but because they’re mma fighters they get held to a higher standard. most mma fighters were troubled youth and “street fighters” before they got into mma, many have been incarcerated, in gangs, grew up in violent upbringings and neighborhoods. then you expect them to run away when confronted by a bunch of scrubs in a gas station.

did they make the best choice? in hindsight clearly not. you dont need to have a huge debate on street fight tactics and all that shit over something as trivial as a couple guys starting a fight. i, like many others who get into fighting, got in trouble and fought alot as a kid. any street fight ive seen and been in has been 1 on 1 with the exception of 1 bar brawl. i have yet to see krav maga work, or kung fu or any of that crap. if you can find a video gladly show me. how about the video of the boxer taking out 4 guys coming after him? how about the boxer knocking the 2 guys out who hit his girlfriend? how about justin mccully taking out a guy with a gun to his head how about lee murray and how badly he fucked guys up?

i saw a wrestler throw a kid literally 10 times in a row in a street fight. or how about alistair overeem sending 5 bouncers in a nightclub to the hospital? or badr hari doing the same thing. how about nick ring chasing off a group of 10 guys who jumped somebody? or the 70 yearold boxer who beat up 2 guys trying to break into his house? do you want me to keep going? keep stressing out over your weapons tactics and positioning and all that bs in the unlikely event anyone ever attacks you from behind with a baseball bat. you’ve got a better chance of drowning in the tub.[/quote]

While I do tend to agree with you about the sport fighting - I refuse to believe that there is better training for fighting than fighting - Sento is right about weapons.

They are a very real reality if you’re living “in the boomtown” so to speak, and I have been involved in a number of fights where improvised weapons were featured prominently - everything from pint glasses to beer bottles to tiki torches to a pool ball in a sock to a fork. One guy I used to know had a massive scar running down the back of his head from where he got hit with a brick when he was younger.

I got hit with a full beer bottle once, almost ended my enjoyable habit of having two working eyes.

Also, most altercations I was in after the age of 14 were more than 1-on-1.

So, while Sento and I disagree on how one should train to effectively defend themselves, we don’t disagree about the tenets of the fight.
[/quote]

This has been pretty much my experience as well (although I have yet to see the pool ball in the sock IRL) and I live in a medium sized and fairly sedate towns in western Canada, which is neither Brazil nor Boomtown.

Working club security, I remember one of the other guys on my crew got his head opened up from behind with a bar stool during a brawl started by some Asian gangster-types. Afterwards, CCTV showed the Asian guy (who had been removed from the club the previous evening club by the guy who got hit) walk calmly and deliberately around the outside of the fray, pick up the stool an clock my shift mate from behind while he was dealing with someone else and walk straight out the side door. The whole thing was an obvious setup just to get back at my partner and save “face”. It resulted in some 37 stitches to the guy’s head. During that same scrap I stripped a pool cue and 2 bottles off of guys who meant me harm (they weren’t all that committed) and I would guess around 20-25 people (many of whom just happened to be in that bar that night) were involved.

Stuff like that happened at that club like once or twice a month to varying degrees. A bit later, while I was off shift, that same Asian clique had it out in the club with the Bikers from our local OMG chapter. Weapons (real and improvised) were pulled, limbs were broken, multiple hospitalizations etc, etc. It was total chaos. And yea Irish, I’m not sure how you train for that crap. Right now my training is RMA/LE/Combatives oriented and I am fortunate to have great instructors. We do multiples, improvised weapons, simulations etc. Looking back I have instinctively employed some of the things that we train and I expect that I would be more likely to perform better now as a result of that training combined with past experiences than I have in the past (of course there’s never any guarantees).

I’ve been in a few scraps, done some sport-fighting, played contact sports and/or done demanding hands on work all my life. I’m just kind of a rough, physical guy by nature and am comfortable in that arena. Our training is great and I love it and get a lot out of it, but I can’t help but wonder sometimes how successful a well behaved, university educated person who’d never lifted an hand in anger or banged bodies with anyone (i.e. many people I know/train with these days) would be at employing what we train in that type of mayhem. We simulate stuff as well one can, but “reality-based” is never quite reality, no matter how well it’s designed. It’s a question that’s been bothering me a little bit lately as I train/help teach.

edited

51

the city i used to live in for school has the highest assault rate in canada. one of the guys i train with was a renknowned street fighter who came from a bad part of town. i still have yet to see anything more than a 1 on 1 fight, and i frequented the nightlife there quite a bit. the only bar brawl ive seen has been in my hometown at a greasy little establishment. i dont know where you guys are that weapons and gang fights are a regular commodity, but remind me not to move there

52

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Spooner21 wrote:

i know who it was that got hit, i read about this story a while ago before seeing this video. you guys are turning a molehill into a mountain. i dont know if you’ve heard of a thing called testosterone and pride, it makes a male do stupid things. they’re not the first two to fight a group of guys by themselves, but because they’re mma fighters they get held to a higher standard. most mma fighters were troubled youth and “street fighters” before they got into mma, many have been incarcerated, in gangs, grew up in violent upbringings and neighborhoods. then you expect them to run away when confronted by a bunch of scrubs in a gas station.

did they make the best choice? in hindsight clearly not. you dont need to have a huge debate on street fight tactics and all that shit over something as trivial as a couple guys starting a fight. i, like many others who get into fighting, got in trouble and fought alot as a kid. any street fight ive seen and been in has been 1 on 1 with the exception of 1 bar brawl. i have yet to see krav maga work, or kung fu or any of that crap. if you can find a video gladly show me. how about the video of the boxer taking out 4 guys coming after him? how about the boxer knocking the 2 guys out who hit his girlfriend? how about justin mccully taking out a guy with a gun to his head how about lee murray and how badly he fucked guys up?

i saw a wrestler throw a kid literally 10 times in a row in a street fight. or how about alistair overeem sending 5 bouncers in a nightclub to the hospital? or badr hari doing the same thing. how about nick ring chasing off a group of 10 guys who jumped somebody? or the 70 yearold boxer who beat up 2 guys trying to break into his house? do you want me to keep going? keep stressing out over your weapons tactics and positioning and all that bs in the unlikely event anyone ever attacks you from behind with a baseball bat. you’ve got a better chance of drowning in the tub.[/quote]

While I do tend to agree with you about the sport fighting - I refuse to believe that there is better training for fighting than fighting - Sento is right about weapons.

They are a very real reality if you’re living “in the boomtown” so to speak, and I have been involved in a number of fights where improvised weapons were featured prominently - everything from pint glasses to beer bottles to tiki torches to a pool ball in a sock to a fork. One guy I used to know had a massive scar running down the back of his head from where he got hit with a brick when he was younger.

I got hit with a full beer bottle once, almost ended my enjoyable habit of having two working eyes.

Also, most altercations I was in after the age of 14 were more than 1-on-1.

So, while Sento and I disagree on how one should train to effectively defend themselves, we don’t disagree about the tenets of the fight.
[/quote]

This has been pretty much my experience as well (although I have yet to see the pool ball in the sock IRL) and I live in a medium sized and fairly sedate towns in western Canada, which is neither Brazil nor Boomtown.

Working club security, I remember one of the other guys on my crew got his head opened up from behind with a bar stool during a brawl started by some Asian gangster-types. Afterwards, CCTV showed the Asian guy (who had been removed from the club the previous evening club by the guy who got hit) walk calmly and deliberately around the outside of the fray, pick up the stool an clock my shift mate from behind while he was dealing with someone else and walk straight out the side door. The whole thing was an obvious setup just to get back at my partner and save “face”. It resulted in some 37 stitches to the guy’s head. During that same scrap I stripped a pool cue and 2 bottles off of guys who meant me harm (they weren’t all that committed) and I would guess around 20-25 people (many of whom just happened to be in that bar that night) were involved.

Stuff like that happened at that club like once or twice a month to varying degrees. A bit later, while I was off shift, that same Asian clique had it out in the club with the Bikers from our local OMG chapter. Weapons (real and improvised) were pulled, limbs were broken, multiple hospitalizations etc, etc. It was total chaos. And yea Irish, I’m not sure how you train for that crap. Right now my training is RMA/LE/Combatives oriented and I am fortunate to have great instructors. We do multiples, improvised weapons, simulations etc. Looking back I have instinctively employed some of the things that we train and I expect that I would be more likely to perform better now as a result of that training combined with past experiences than I have in the past (of course there’s never any guarantees).

I’ve been in a few scraps, done some sport-fighting, played contact sports and/or done demanding hands on work all my life. I’m just kind of a rough, physical guy by nature and am comfortable in that arena. Our training is great and I love it and get a lot out of it, but I can’t help but wonder sometimes how successful a well behaved, university educated person who’d never lifted an hand in anger or banged bodies with anyone (i.e. many people I know/train with these days) would be at employing what we train in that type of mayhem. We simulate stuff as well one can, but “reality-based” is never quite reality, no matter how well it’s designed. It’s a question that’s been bothering me a little bit lately as I train/help teach.

edited[/quote]

The truth is that no training can ever be truly “real”, the best it can be is more or less “realistic”. But just like putting on the protective gear (gloves, headgear, mouth guard, etc…) and going full contact can more accurately prepare you for striking contests that don’t involve your opponent “playing along”, training with protective gear and/or training weapons full resistance/speed can better illustrate/prepare you for real weapons combative situations. In fact, that same basic concept can be applied to pretty much any arsenal or situation if done intelligently.

Of course, you can’t just “throw people to the wolves” so to speak and just have them go full speed/full resistance right from the get go; they have to develop the skills with no resistance, then gradually increase the level of resistance until you have them try to apply it full resistance in an isolated context and then finally in a completely open context (sparring).

53

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]Spooner21 wrote:
again, i know who it was that got hit. i never said it was falco. im going to try and keep this as short as possible, because after accusing you of turning molehills into mountains i dont want to start doing it myself. im going to be honest, i hardly read anything you wrote, thats ridiculous, im not reading all that. if i were to sit here and reply to every point in there this would escalate into a months long debate over something as stupid and trivial as a street fight. i feel like im in grade 8 again. like are you walking around compton with a swaztika on your forehead? you know what, im not even going to bother. TMA’s take the cake again, best fighters on the planet. you win.[/quote]

We have a winner. Sento is a Nazi.[/quote]

NO SOUP FOR YOU![/quote]

hahahahahaha

54

[quote]Ropes wrote:
I thought some of you might find this video interesting, for those who haven’t seen it already, with the discussion on here about MMA for self defense and the reality of how quickly things can escalate. I’m not sure how to embed, but I’ve posted the links below:

[/quote]

A real man bites his tongue and ignores the young lady… he reacted, lashing out against a most likely dirty mouth, and got what he deserved. Touching a woman the way he did invites a world of hurt.

Humble: Same in my neck of the woods. Stay clear of women unless they are yours and/or they have invited your attention (be leery). Simple.

55

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Spooner21 wrote:

i know who it was that got hit, i read about this story a while ago before seeing this video. you guys are turning a molehill into a mountain. i dont know if you’ve heard of a thing called testosterone and pride, it makes a male do stupid things. they’re not the first two to fight a group of guys by themselves, but because they’re mma fighters they get held to a higher standard. most mma fighters were troubled youth and “street fighters” before they got into mma, many have been incarcerated, in gangs, grew up in violent upbringings and neighborhoods. then you expect them to run away when confronted by a bunch of scrubs in a gas station.

did they make the best choice? in hindsight clearly not. you dont need to have a huge debate on street fight tactics and all that shit over something as trivial as a couple guys starting a fight. i, like many others who get into fighting, got in trouble and fought alot as a kid. any street fight ive seen and been in has been 1 on 1 with the exception of 1 bar brawl. i have yet to see krav maga work, or kung fu or any of that crap. if you can find a video gladly show me. how about the video of the boxer taking out 4 guys coming after him? how about the boxer knocking the 2 guys out who hit his girlfriend? how about justin mccully taking out a guy with a gun to his head how about lee murray and how badly he fucked guys up?

i saw a wrestler throw a kid literally 10 times in a row in a street fight. or how about alistair overeem sending 5 bouncers in a nightclub to the hospital? or badr hari doing the same thing. how about nick ring chasing off a group of 10 guys who jumped somebody? or the 70 yearold boxer who beat up 2 guys trying to break into his house? do you want me to keep going? keep stressing out over your weapons tactics and positioning and all that bs in the unlikely event anyone ever attacks you from behind with a baseball bat. you’ve got a better chance of drowning in the tub.[/quote]

While I do tend to agree with you about the sport fighting - I refuse to believe that there is better training for fighting than fighting - Sento is right about weapons.

They are a very real reality if you’re living “in the boomtown” so to speak, and I have been involved in a number of fights where improvised weapons were featured prominently - everything from pint glasses to beer bottles to tiki torches to a pool ball in a sock to a fork. One guy I used to know had a massive scar running down the back of his head from where he got hit with a brick when he was younger.

I got hit with a full beer bottle once, almost ended my enjoyable habit of having two working eyes.

Also, most altercations I was in after the age of 14 were more than 1-on-1.

So, while Sento and I disagree on how one should train to effectively defend themselves, we don’t disagree about the tenets of the fight.
[/quote]

This has been pretty much my experience as well (although I have yet to see the pool ball in the sock IRL) and I live in a medium sized and fairly sedate towns in western Canada, which is neither Brazil nor Boomtown.

Working club security, I remember one of the other guys on my crew got his head opened up from behind with a bar stool during a brawl started by some Asian gangster-types. Afterwards, CCTV showed the Asian guy (who had been removed from the club the previous evening club by the guy who got hit) walk calmly and deliberately around the outside of the fray, pick up the stool an clock my shift mate from behind while he was dealing with someone else and walk straight out the side door. The whole thing was an obvious setup just to get back at my partner and save “face”. It resulted in some 37 stitches to the guy’s head. During that same scrap I stripped a pool cue and 2 bottles off of guys who meant me harm (they weren’t all that committed) and I would guess around 20-25 people (many of whom just happened to be in that bar that night) were involved.

Stuff like that happened at that club like once or twice a month to varying degrees. A bit later, while I was off shift, that same Asian clique had it out in the club with the Bikers from our local OMG chapter. Weapons (real and improvised) were pulled, limbs were broken, multiple hospitalizations etc, etc. It was total chaos. And yea Irish, I’m not sure how you train for that crap. Right now my training is RMA/LE/Combatives oriented and I am fortunate to have great instructors. We do multiples, improvised weapons, simulations etc. Looking back I have instinctively employed some of the things that we train and I expect that I would be more likely to perform better now as a result of that training combined with past experiences than I have in the past (of course there’s never any guarantees).

I’ve been in a few scraps, done some sport-fighting, played contact sports and/or done demanding hands on work all my life. I’m just kind of a rough, physical guy by nature and am comfortable in that arena. Our training is great and I love it and get a lot out of it, but I can’t help but wonder sometimes how successful a well behaved, university educated person who’d never lifted an hand in anger or banged bodies with anyone (i.e. many people I know/train with these days) would be at employing what we train in that type of mayhem. We simulate stuff as well one can, but “reality-based” is never quite reality, no matter how well it’s designed. It’s a question that’s been bothering me a little bit lately as I train/help teach.

edited[/quote]

The truth is that no training can ever be truly “real”, the best it can be is more or less “realistic”. But just like putting on the protective gear (gloves, headgear, mouth guard, etc…) and going full contact can more accurately prepare you for striking contests that don’t involve your opponent “playing along”, training with protective gear and/or training weapons full resistance/speed can better illustrate/prepare you for real weapons combative situations. In fact, that same basic concept can be applied to pretty much any arsenal or situation if done intelligently.

Of course, you can’t just “throw people to the wolves” so to speak and just have them go full speed/full resistance right from the get go; they have to develop the skills with no resistance, then gradually increase the level of resistance until you have them try to apply it full resistance in an isolated context and then finally in a completely open context (sparring).[/quote]

Pretty much agree and this is essentially how we do it at the RMA school where I trained (different on the LE side due to very limited available training time). It makes logical sense to me to do it this way. However, because most people are so rarely involved in real world violence it’s difficult to get any actual feedback as to how effectively training is really preparing them and I find that doubts and questions begin to creep in. This is not necessarily a bad thing as overconfidence breeds complacency and complacency kills.

I can also somewhat see Irish’s point about how, given the limited amount of time and energy most people are willing/able to devote to training, they might be better served by becoming proficient in a skill set that has fewer elements(i.e. boxing or wrestling). Your suggestion of offsetting this through crosstraining makes sense. However I also find that most people will not train hard enough for long enough to get good at one discipline, let alone several. I’m not really arguing with you. I don’t even disagree. Just thinking out loud and trying to determine where would be best served to spend my own finite training resources.

I just find that when you are helping people prepare specifically for real world violence the responsibility weighs heavy and in the overwhelming majority of cases it’s nearly impossible to know how effective you’re really being from day to day. In the end so much of it seems to me to come down to the will and fighting spirit of the individual and an uncomfortable amount of dumb luck.

56

[quote]
A real man bites his tongue and ignores the young lady… he reacted, lashing out against a most likely dirty mouth, and got what he deserved. Touching a woman the way he did invites a world of hurt.

Humble: Same in my neck of the woods. Stay clear of women unless they are yours and/or they have invited your attention (be leery). Simple.[/quote]

That’s it bro.
No shit, guns pulled at weddings here because fuckers look at peoples wives the wrong way. Men know to keep their eyes to themselves or to mess only with women who invite it

57

[quote]Spooner21 wrote:
the city i used to live in for school has the highest assault rate in canada. one of the guys i train with was a renknowned street fighter who came from a bad part of town. i still have yet to see anything more than a 1 on 1 fight, and i frequented the nightlife there quite a bit. the only bar brawl ive seen has been in my hometown at a greasy little establishment. i dont know where you guys are that weapons and gang fights are a regular commodity, but remind me not to move there[/quote]

Welcome to sunny Clapton.

58

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Spooner21 wrote:

i know who it was that got hit, i read about this story a while ago before seeing this video. you guys are turning a molehill into a mountain. i dont know if you’ve heard of a thing called testosterone and pride, it makes a male do stupid things. they’re not the first two to fight a group of guys by themselves, but because they’re mma fighters they get held to a higher standard. most mma fighters were troubled youth and “street fighters” before they got into mma, many have been incarcerated, in gangs, grew up in violent upbringings and neighborhoods. then you expect them to run away when confronted by a bunch of scrubs in a gas station.

did they make the best choice? in hindsight clearly not. you dont need to have a huge debate on street fight tactics and all that shit over something as trivial as a couple guys starting a fight. i, like many others who get into fighting, got in trouble and fought alot as a kid. any street fight ive seen and been in has been 1 on 1 with the exception of 1 bar brawl. i have yet to see krav maga work, or kung fu or any of that crap. if you can find a video gladly show me. how about the video of the boxer taking out 4 guys coming after him? how about the boxer knocking the 2 guys out who hit his girlfriend? how about justin mccully taking out a guy with a gun to his head how about lee murray and how badly he fucked guys up?

i saw a wrestler throw a kid literally 10 times in a row in a street fight. or how about alistair overeem sending 5 bouncers in a nightclub to the hospital? or badr hari doing the same thing. how about nick ring chasing off a group of 10 guys who jumped somebody? or the 70 yearold boxer who beat up 2 guys trying to break into his house? do you want me to keep going? keep stressing out over your weapons tactics and positioning and all that bs in the unlikely event anyone ever attacks you from behind with a baseball bat. you’ve got a better chance of drowning in the tub.[/quote]

While I do tend to agree with you about the sport fighting - I refuse to believe that there is better training for fighting than fighting - Sento is right about weapons.

They are a very real reality if you’re living “in the boomtown” so to speak, and I have been involved in a number of fights where improvised weapons were featured prominently - everything from pint glasses to beer bottles to tiki torches to a pool ball in a sock to a fork. One guy I used to know had a massive scar running down the back of his head from where he got hit with a brick when he was younger.

I got hit with a full beer bottle once, almost ended my enjoyable habit of having two working eyes.

Also, most altercations I was in after the age of 14 were more than 1-on-1.

So, while Sento and I disagree on how one should train to effectively defend themselves, we don’t disagree about the tenets of the fight.
[/quote]

This has been pretty much my experience as well (although I have yet to see the pool ball in the sock IRL) and I live in a medium sized and fairly sedate towns in western Canada, which is neither Brazil nor Boomtown.

Working club security, I remember one of the other guys on my crew got his head opened up from behind with a bar stool during a brawl started by some Asian gangster-types. Afterwards, CCTV showed the Asian guy (who had been removed from the club the previous evening club by the guy who got hit) walk calmly and deliberately around the outside of the fray, pick up the stool an clock my shift mate from behind while he was dealing with someone else and walk straight out the side door. The whole thing was an obvious setup just to get back at my partner and save “face”. It resulted in some 37 stitches to the guy’s head. During that same scrap I stripped a pool cue and 2 bottles off of guys who meant me harm (they weren’t all that committed) and I would guess around 20-25 people (many of whom just happened to be in that bar that night) were involved.

Stuff like that happened at that club like once or twice a month to varying degrees. A bit later, while I was off shift, that same Asian clique had it out in the club with the Bikers from our local OMG chapter. Weapons (real and improvised) were pulled, limbs were broken, multiple hospitalizations etc, etc. It was total chaos. And yea Irish, I’m not sure how you train for that crap. Right now my training is RMA/LE/Combatives oriented and I am fortunate to have great instructors. We do multiples, improvised weapons, simulations etc. Looking back I have instinctively employed some of the things that we train and I expect that I would be more likely to perform better now as a result of that training combined with past experiences than I have in the past (of course there’s never any guarantees).

I’ve been in a few scraps, done some sport-fighting, played contact sports and/or done demanding hands on work all my life. I’m just kind of a rough, physical guy by nature and am comfortable in that arena. Our training is great and I love it and get a lot out of it, but I can’t help but wonder sometimes how successful a well behaved, university educated person who’d never lifted an hand in anger or banged bodies with anyone (i.e. many people I know/train with these days) would be at employing what we train in that type of mayhem. We simulate stuff as well one can, but “reality-based” is never quite reality, no matter how well it’s designed. It’s a question that’s been bothering me a little bit lately as I train/help teach.

edited[/quote]

The truth is that no training can ever be truly “real”, the best it can be is more or less “realistic”. But just like putting on the protective gear (gloves, headgear, mouth guard, etc…) and going full contact can more accurately prepare you for striking contests that don’t involve your opponent “playing along”, training with protective gear and/or training weapons full resistance/speed can better illustrate/prepare you for real weapons combative situations. In fact, that same basic concept can be applied to pretty much any arsenal or situation if done intelligently.

Of course, you can’t just “throw people to the wolves” so to speak and just have them go full speed/full resistance right from the get go; they have to develop the skills with no resistance, then gradually increase the level of resistance until you have them try to apply it full resistance in an isolated context and then finally in a completely open context (sparring).[/quote]

Pretty much agree and this is essentially how we do it at the RMA school where I trained (different on the LE side due to very limited available training time). It makes logical sense to me to do it this way. However, because most people are so rarely involved in real world violence it’s difficult to get any actual feedback as to how effectively training is really preparing them and I find that doubts and questions begin to creep in. This is not necessarily a bad thing as overconfidence breeds complacency and complacency kills.

I can also somewhat see Irish’s point about how, given the limited amount of time and energy most people are willing/able to devote to training, they might be better served by becoming proficient in a skill set that has fewer elements(i.e. boxing or wrestling). Your suggestion of offsetting this through crosstraining makes sense. However I also find that most people will not train hard enough for long enough to get good at one discipline, let alone several. I’m not really arguing with you. I don’t even disagree. Just thinking out loud and trying to determine where would be best served to spend my own finite training resources.

I just find that when you are helping people prepare specifically for real world violence the responsibility weighs heavy and in the overwhelming majority of cases it’s nearly impossible to know how effective you’re really being from day to day. In the end so much of it seems to me to come down to the will and fighting spirit of the individual and an uncomfortable amount of dumb luck.[/quote]

Well, first it really helps if the instructors (or at least their instructors) have actual experience with real world violence, because if they do, then what they are teach will generally be informed by that experience. Short of that, then next best thing would be to have some students training in the school who’s occupations afford them the opportunity to test the material (LEO’s, bouncers, corrections officers, active military, etc…).

Full on sparring in the school (with varying degrees of limitations) is another very helpful litmus test, but the students need to be constantly reminded that even a single rule makes the training not “real”. So, if you guys don’t actually put on the protective gear and “mix it up” (be that just boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, ground grappling, ground fighting, MMA style, weapons sparring, empty hands vs weapons sparring or “free-fighting”), then it’s going to be tough to be confident in your physical skills. This does not mean however that all you need to do is “get in there and bang”; you need informed drills that will actually teach and refine your skills prior to actually trying to apply them full speed/resistance.

59

[quote]Ricochet wrote:

[quote]Ropes wrote:
I thought some of you might find this video interesting, for those who haven’t seen it already, with the discussion on here about MMA for self defense and the reality of how quickly things can escalate. I’m not sure how to embed, but I’ve posted the links below:

[/quote]

A real man bites his tongue and ignores the young lady… he reacted, lashing out against a most likely dirty mouth, and got what he deserved. Touching a woman the way he did invites a world of hurt.

Humble: Same in my neck of the woods. Stay clear of women unless they are yours and/or they have invited your attention (be leery). Simple.[/quote]

I might be embarrassed by this but I almost get turned on when some girls give me attitude.

60

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Spooner21 wrote:

i know who it was that got hit, i read about this story a while ago before seeing this video. you guys are turning a molehill into a mountain. i dont know if you’ve heard of a thing called testosterone and pride, it makes a male do stupid things. they’re not the first two to fight a group of guys by themselves, but because they’re mma fighters they get held to a higher standard. most mma fighters were troubled youth and “street fighters” before they got into mma, many have been incarcerated, in gangs, grew up in violent upbringings and neighborhoods. then you expect them to run away when confronted by a bunch of scrubs in a gas station.

did they make the best choice? in hindsight clearly not. you dont need to have a huge debate on street fight tactics and all that shit over something as trivial as a couple guys starting a fight. i, like many others who get into fighting, got in trouble and fought alot as a kid. any street fight ive seen and been in has been 1 on 1 with the exception of 1 bar brawl. i have yet to see krav maga work, or kung fu or any of that crap. if you can find a video gladly show me. how about the video of the boxer taking out 4 guys coming after him? how about the boxer knocking the 2 guys out who hit his girlfriend? how about justin mccully taking out a guy with a gun to his head how about lee murray and how badly he fucked guys up?

i saw a wrestler throw a kid literally 10 times in a row in a street fight. or how about alistair overeem sending 5 bouncers in a nightclub to the hospital? or badr hari doing the same thing. how about nick ring chasing off a group of 10 guys who jumped somebody? or the 70 yearold boxer who beat up 2 guys trying to break into his house? do you want me to keep going? keep stressing out over your weapons tactics and positioning and all that bs in the unlikely event anyone ever attacks you from behind with a baseball bat. you’ve got a better chance of drowning in the tub.[/quote]

While I do tend to agree with you about the sport fighting - I refuse to believe that there is better training for fighting than fighting - Sento is right about weapons.

They are a very real reality if you’re living “in the boomtown” so to speak, and I have been involved in a number of fights where improvised weapons were featured prominently - everything from pint glasses to beer bottles to tiki torches to a pool ball in a sock to a fork. One guy I used to know had a massive scar running down the back of his head from where he got hit with a brick when he was younger.

I got hit with a full beer bottle once, almost ended my enjoyable habit of having two working eyes.

Also, most altercations I was in after the age of 14 were more than 1-on-1.

So, while Sento and I disagree on how one should train to effectively defend themselves, we don’t disagree about the tenets of the fight.
[/quote]

This has been pretty much my experience as well (although I have yet to see the pool ball in the sock IRL) and I live in a medium sized and fairly sedate towns in western Canada, which is neither Brazil nor Boomtown.

Working club security, I remember one of the other guys on my crew got his head opened up from behind with a bar stool during a brawl started by some Asian gangster-types. Afterwards, CCTV showed the Asian guy (who had been removed from the club the previous evening club by the guy who got hit) walk calmly and deliberately around the outside of the fray, pick up the stool an clock my shift mate from behind while he was dealing with someone else and walk straight out the side door. The whole thing was an obvious setup just to get back at my partner and save “face”. It resulted in some 37 stitches to the guy’s head. During that same scrap I stripped a pool cue and 2 bottles off of guys who meant me harm (they weren’t all that committed) and I would guess around 20-25 people (many of whom just happened to be in that bar that night) were involved.

Stuff like that happened at that club like once or twice a month to varying degrees. A bit later, while I was off shift, that same Asian clique had it out in the club with the Bikers from our local OMG chapter. Weapons (real and improvised) were pulled, limbs were broken, multiple hospitalizations etc, etc. It was total chaos. And yea Irish, I’m not sure how you train for that crap. Right now my training is RMA/LE/Combatives oriented and I am fortunate to have great instructors. We do multiples, improvised weapons, simulations etc. Looking back I have instinctively employed some of the things that we train and I expect that I would be more likely to perform better now as a result of that training combined with past experiences than I have in the past (of course there’s never any guarantees).

I’ve been in a few scraps, done some sport-fighting, played contact sports and/or done demanding hands on work all my life. I’m just kind of a rough, physical guy by nature and am comfortable in that arena. Our training is great and I love it and get a lot out of it, but I can’t help but wonder sometimes how successful a well behaved, university educated person who’d never lifted an hand in anger or banged bodies with anyone (i.e. many people I know/train with these days) would be at employing what we train in that type of mayhem. We simulate stuff as well one can, but “reality-based” is never quite reality, no matter how well it’s designed. It’s a question that’s been bothering me a little bit lately as I train/help teach.

edited[/quote]

The truth is that no training can ever be truly “real”, the best it can be is more or less “realistic”. But just like putting on the protective gear (gloves, headgear, mouth guard, etc…) and going full contact can more accurately prepare you for striking contests that don’t involve your opponent “playing along”, training with protective gear and/or training weapons full resistance/speed can better illustrate/prepare you for real weapons combative situations. In fact, that same basic concept can be applied to pretty much any arsenal or situation if done intelligently.

Of course, you can’t just “throw people to the wolves” so to speak and just have them go full speed/full resistance right from the get go; they have to develop the skills with no resistance, then gradually increase the level of resistance until you have them try to apply it full resistance in an isolated context and then finally in a completely open context (sparring).[/quote]

Pretty much agree and this is essentially how we do it at the RMA school where I trained (different on the LE side due to very limited available training time). It makes logical sense to me to do it this way. However, because most people are so rarely involved in real world violence it’s difficult to get any actual feedback as to how effectively training is really preparing them and I find that doubts and questions begin to creep in. This is not necessarily a bad thing as overconfidence breeds complacency and complacency kills.

I can also somewhat see Irish’s point about how, given the limited amount of time and energy most people are willing/able to devote to training, they might be better served by becoming proficient in a skill set that has fewer elements(i.e. boxing or wrestling). Your suggestion of offsetting this through crosstraining makes sense. However I also find that most people will not train hard enough for long enough to get good at one discipline, let alone several. I’m not really arguing with you. I don’t even disagree. Just thinking out loud and trying to determine where would be best served to spend my own finite training resources.

I just find that when you are helping people prepare specifically for real world violence the responsibility weighs heavy and in the overwhelming majority of cases it’s nearly impossible to know how effective you’re really being from day to day. In the end so much of it seems to me to come down to the will and fighting spirit of the individual and an uncomfortable amount of dumb luck.[/quote]

Well, first it really helps if the instructors (or at least their instructors) have actual experience with real world violence, because if they do, then what they are teach will generally be informed by that experience. Short of that, then next best thing would be to have some students training in the school who’s occupations afford them the opportunity to test the material (LEO’s, bouncers, corrections officers, active military, etc…).

Full on sparring in the school (with varying degrees of limitations) is another very helpful litmus test, but the students need to be constantly reminded that even a single rule makes the training not “real”. So, if you guys don’t actually put on the protective gear and “mix it up” (be that just boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, ground grappling, ground fighting, MMA style, weapons sparring, empty hands vs weapons sparring or “free-fighting”), then it’s going to be tough to be confident in your physical skills. This does not mean however that all you need to do is “get in there and bang”; you need informed drills that will actually teach and refine your skills prior to actually trying to apply them full speed/resistance.[/quote]

Yep, that’s pretty much exactly what we do at my RMA school. Our Head Instructor is a veteran LEO who has been there, done that as is the primary junior instructor. Probably 85% of students are police, corrections, military or security/close protection types. We start with a 6 month beginner program laying a foundation with various structured drills, stress drills, sensory deprivation and over-stimulation, fitness and tonnes of repetition.

We start slow and technical, breaking each skill into small chunks while nit picking the nuances of body position, distance, movement etc, and then build speed and intensity. Lots of contact in drills, but a generally somewhat predetermined outcome. After students graduate from that program we introduce more free fighting/force on force stuff, weapons, multiples more intense and varied drills etc. Generally focus intensively on one skill for a month at a time then move on.

edited