[quote]humble wrote:
Fucking piece of shit… Rule number 1 for being a man. Don’t touch other mens women. Who are other mens women? Anyone that is not your daughter, sister or mother. Plain and fucking simple.
Sucked in to the cunt. He’s be shot in our neck of the woods. He got off easy with a beat down.[/quote]
dude he touched her which was uncool but that hardly warrants what happened to him and his buddy[/quote]
Yeah I laughed when I read that…dude must be all kinds of tough to shoot a woman-toucher
Though, MMA skills are going to be completely lacking in terms of things like weapons defensive/offensive skills or multiple opponent skills/strategy. So in fairness while MMA skills are among the best within the specific context, relevant/legal arsenals, and environment that apply to a sport fight, they will also be severely lacking in skills outside of that arena.
So, while the tools in their tool box may have been of excellent quality, they brought the wrong tool box for that specific job.
[/quote]
You and I have long disagreed on this.
You don’t have to be a genius to make an improvised weapon, or to realize that you can’t get surrounded. I’m not someone who believes in “toolboxes” and “multiple skillsets” and all that other horseshit, and you know my overall disdain for most “reality martial arts” and what they teach.
That being said, their skills would have worked fine if they hadn’t gone into monkey dance mode.
Though, MMA skills are going to be completely lacking in terms of things like weapons defensive/offensive skills or multiple opponent skills/strategy. So in fairness while MMA skills are among the best within the specific context, relevant/legal arsenals, and environment that apply to a sport fight, they will also be severely lacking in skills outside of that arena.
So, while the tools in their tool box may have been of excellent quality, they brought the wrong tool box for that specific job.
[/quote]
You and I have long disagreed on this.
You don’t have to be a genius to make an improvised weapon, or to realize that you can’t get surrounded. I’m not someone who believes in “toolboxes” and “multiple skillsets” and all that other horseshit, and you know my overall disdain for most “reality martial arts” and what they teach.
That being said, their skills would have worked fine if they hadn’t gone into monkey dance mode. [/quote]
Ye that’s pretty much my take too. You’re either smart enough and experienced enough in the moment to make good decisions and use your environment, or you lack experience and lose your shit when it all goes down. Honestly, I’m not sure how much that can be trained, however reality based that training may be. At the end of the day, a whole load of soldiers still try and bury themselves in the dirt when the bullets start flying. And they have more realistic, expensive training than most.
[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
Don’t fuck with Brazilians. Especially, when they’ve got their big family and multitude of friends hanging by. When they don’t 2x4 you, they fucking quarter and decapitate you.
[/quote]
LOL. Only too true! I’d hate to be either, but I’d infinitely rather be in a hospital than a disemboweled and disembodied head piked on a stake. Over a soccer game no less.
In effect, where one of my boys who’s been locked up for a while would have cracked the closest guy and run, these guys wanted to stand and fight like cowboys. As a result, they got whooped.
The skills can’t save you if you don’t understand the strategy necessary to deploy those skills. If you’re the NVA, you just can’t fucking stand toe-to-toe with the US Army. So you hit and run, and when you’re outgunned and outfucked, you get out of there and fight another day, because they got the drop on you this time and staying in there is going to be bad for you health.
Though, MMA skills are going to be completely lacking in terms of things like weapons defensive/offensive skills or multiple opponent skills/strategy. So in fairness while MMA skills are among the best within the specific context, relevant/legal arsenals, and environment that apply to a sport fight, they will also be severely lacking in skills outside of that arena.
So, while the tools in their tool box may have been of excellent quality, they brought the wrong tool box for that specific job.
[/quote]
You and I have long disagreed on this.
You don’t have to be a genius to make an improvised weapon, or to realize that you can’t get surrounded. I’m not someone who believes in “toolboxes” and “multiple skillsets” and all that other horseshit, and you know my overall disdain for most “reality martial arts” and what they teach.
That being said, their skills would have worked fine if they hadn’t gone into monkey dance mode. [/quote]
I agree with some of this, but …well I will say this: it’s one thing to “know” that you can’t get surrounded when shit goes down, and it’s another to TRAIN, as well as can be poorly mimicked in a controlled environment, to circle and retreat to keep yourself from getting surrounded. You can watch this happen on several tv shows (“fight quest” comes to mind) where the narrator/actor/fighter goes to train with the marines in the wooded gauntlet course or with the IDF in krav maga and gets his ass handed to him because he lets them surround him while the instructor goes full speed and stays away at the edges. You have to train the knowledge to make it useable under pressure.
It’s like how fighters can “know” what they’re supposed to do to counter a takedown or throw, but until they train it day in and day out with seriousness their takedown defense still sucks balls. There’s awareness or knowledge, and then there’s response. Those are two different things.
Though, MMA skills are going to be completely lacking in terms of things like weapons defensive/offensive skills or multiple opponent skills/strategy. So in fairness while MMA skills are among the best within the specific context, relevant/legal arsenals, and environment that apply to a sport fight, they will also be severely lacking in skills outside of that arena.
So, while the tools in their tool box may have been of excellent quality, they brought the wrong tool box for that specific job.
[/quote]
You and I have long disagreed on this.
You don’t have to be a genius to make an improvised weapon, or to realize that you can’t get surrounded. I’m not someone who believes in “toolboxes” and “multiple skillsets” and all that other horseshit, and you know my overall disdain for most “reality martial arts” and what they teach.
That being said, their skills would have worked fine if they hadn’t gone into monkey dance mode. [/quote]
Yet every time you see fights in the house on The Ultimate Fighter everyone makes the same critical mistakes as the guy in the video made. I’m in no way suggesting that people who grow up in the “school of hard knocks”, gangs, or getting into real fights don’t think of the things that I mentioned above. Those people have most likely learned through experience about the realities of weapons, multiples, ambushes, etc… They WILL be thinking of such tactics and/or ready to escalate the violence level because they have experience in such situations.
Sports like MMA do NOT teach such strategies, mind sets, or skill sets though; in fact they actually teach poor habits (ever think that the fact that fighters “stare each other down” during pre-fight weigh-ins might be actually conditioning fighters to "get in each others faces?). Seriously, show me a single video of Freddie Roach, Greg Jackson, Dan Gable, or any other sport Martial Art coach (who only focuses on Sport training) teaching a legitimate unarmed against a blade tactic, or firearm retention and deployment skill, or impact weapon skills.
If someone brings those skills with them from elsewhere and then trains MMA/sport martial arts, then yeah, they are going to most likely use their sport martial arts skills (or perhaps not use them) much more appropriately. That didn’t come from their Sport Martial Arts training though.
Also, while it doesn’t take a genius to think to use weapons, there is a difference between doing something and doing that thing well. Anyone can swing a pool cue, but put one in the hands of a Kendo/Kenjutsu/Ninjutsu expert and it’s a whole different animal. Anybody can pull a trigger, but put a gun in the hands of a quick draw champion and suddenly you’ve got a couple holes in your head that weren’t there before. Put a bar stool leg in the hands of a Kali/Escrima/Arnis practitioner and they are going to be drastically more dangerous than the average person. In other words, there is a reason why people train for years to utilize weapons in battle; thinking that you could just pick up one of these weapons and use it to anywhere resembling the same level of effectiveness just because you can box or wrestle well is just ridiculous. Likewise, unless you actually train to do so on a regular basis, your skills at defending against such weapons is going to be rudimentary at best.
Mentality and awareness are #1, no argument there, but suggesting that weapons skills training won’t greatly increase one’s chances of surviving such situations is just incorrect.
Yet every time you see fights in the house on The Ultimate Fighter everyone makes the same critical mistakes as the guy in the video made. I’m in no way suggesting that people who grow up in the “school of hard knocks”, gangs, or getting into real fights don’t think of the things that I mentioned above. Those people have most likely learned through experience about the realities of weapons, multiples, ambushes, etc… They WILL be thinking of such tactics and/or ready to escalate the violence level because they have experience in such situations.
Sports like MMA do NOT teach such strategies, mind sets, or skill sets though; in fact they actually teach poor habits (ever think that the fact that fighters “stare each other down” during pre-fight weigh-ins might be actually conditioning fighters to "get in each others faces?). Seriously, show me a single video of Freddie Roach, Greg Jackson, Dan Gable, or any other sport Martial Art coach (who only focuses on Sport training) teaching a legitimate unarmed against a blade tactic, or firearm retention and deployment skill, or impact weapon skills.
If someone brings those skills with them from elsewhere and then trains MMA/sport martial arts, then yeah, they are going to most likely use their sport martial arts skills (or perhaps not use them) much more appropriately. That didn’t come from their Sport Martial Arts training though.
Also, while it doesn’t take a genius to think to use weapons, there is a difference between doing something and doing that thing well. Anyone can swing a pool cue, but put one in the hands of a Kendo/Kenjutsu/Ninjutsu expert and it’s a whole different animal. Anybody can pull a trigger, but put a gun in the hands of a quick draw champion and suddenly you’ve got a couple holes in your head that weren’t there before. Put a bar stool leg in the hands of a Kali/Escrima/Arnis practitioner and they are going to be drastically more dangerous than the average person. In other words, there is a reason why people train for years to utilize weapons in battle; thinking that you could just pick up one of these weapons and use it to anywhere resembling the same level of effectiveness just because you can box or wrestle well is just ridiculous. Likewise, unless you actually train to do so on a regular basis, your skills at defending against such weapons is going to be rudimentary at best.
Mentality and awareness are #1, no argument there, but suggesting that weapons skills training won’t greatly increase one’s chances of surviving such situations is just incorrect.[/quote]
You’re talking about expert-level shit here. And honestly, who amongst us is even anywhere near at that level?
My argument remains the same - for the limited training time most regular people have, concentrating on one simple art like boxing or wrestling and getting to the point where it’s simple movements are impressed upon your brain will give you more bang for your buck than anything else out there.
Give me anyone of these krav maga types or whatever at any time. They’re not even “jack of all trades” types, they’re rich white suburbanites that get sold a bill of goods and get half-assed training for an hour a week. I know it’s not all of them, but I’ll be fucked if it’s not MOST of them. It certainly doesn’t compare to that kind of no-bullshit training that you get EVERY DAY when you wrestle in high school or are part of a real boxing program.
And I don’t know man, I just can’t help but laugh when I hear people talk about training for “multiple opponents.” Like, fuck me, I’ve fought with multiple opponents, and it’s such a fucked up situation with such bad potential that claiming that any degree of training in some f’n dojo is going to do anything for it… I don’t know. Good luck with that I guess.
Maybe I assume to much on the part of the practitioner, but I generally feel that if by the time you’re 24 or 25, you’ve got to TRAIN for this kind of situation, you’ve probably led a soft enough life that you’re gonna die when it comes either way.
Real boxing, wrestling, and MMA training make you hard - like cut from leather hard - and that’s what gets you through a violent encounter. Not learning some “knife disarm” from a dude who’s never had one pulled on him, or learning how to swing a pool cue from Grandmaster Flash who trained in the deep jungles of the Philippines one summer.
The best streetfighters I’ve ever known were boxers and wrestlers. It’s not a coincidence. You don’t have to agree, and I’m certainly not telling you that you’re totally wrong. I just think in whole different fashion.
I’ve strayed from the original topic here, of course, and the video absolutely proves that being in possession of good fighting skills in no way guarantees your safety in a streetfight. But that’s the name of the game, isn’t it? Nothing does. And any art that tells you it will is just wrong and lying to you.
That tends to be my point with these threads where I tell people that sport fighting doesn’t mean you’ll do well in the streetzzz. But then neither do reality martial arts, which are ironically not often based in reality, or TMA’s, which, looking back, are a total waste of time unless you have massive quantities of time to devote to them.
You might get in a hundred encounters and survive them all, or you might get into 1 when you’re 60 and get killed. Luck of the draw. Dude in the video lost HARD
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Pretty much exactly what all of us have been saying all along. Don’t start a fucking street fight, no matter how good you are. That’s all there is to it. Not that MMA is shitty for self defense, it’s that your MMA training never comes into play with a fucking brawl like this, because some thug cracks you upside the head with a weapon and then stomps on your face repeatedly. Case in point: this video. Endurance: check. Technique: check. Accuracy: check. Power: double check. Used to getting punched: check.
Didn’t fucking matter.[/quote]
Yup. The presence of multiple opponents and weapons also drastically changes things. MMA never, ever even addresses these differences or strategies to dealing with them because such things never occur in an MMA fight.[/quote]
No denying that. That said, I would be interested to know of any form of self defense, other than not being a wanker in the first place, that could have lead to a different outcome in this situation.
[/quote]
This is actually one of the most effective modes of self defense that I know of.
obviously things work a little differently in brazil then canada. but i dont know if defending my womans honor with a gang and a baseball bat is the way id want to do it. seemed a little excessive to me, and then his poor buddy who stepped in got the worst of it. as bad as this video is, i can find alot more videos of trained fighters putting an ass whooping on some regular joe. how about justin mccully taking a guy out who had a gun to his head? i could go on for a while
FightinIrish wrote: My argument remains the same - for the limited training time most regular people have, concentrating on one simple art like boxing or wrestling and getting to the point where it’s simple movements are impressed upon your brain will give you more bang for your buck than anything else out there.
I totally agree with this ^. When it all hits the fan, no-one is thinking of a kata or 6 punch combination. For the most part no-one is thinking at all, they’re reacting from ingrained training (or they’re not). I’d take FightinIrish’s advice one step further and say that for most regular people with limited training time, concentrate on learning just one or two simple moves, from one discipline like boxing or wrestling, and become excellent at it. Learn to throw a great left jab and right hook (or whatever), something that absolutely slays people and ends the fight fast.
That has been my experience anyway. I led a soft life until I became an LEO at age 24. When I joined, I couldn’t have punched my way out of a wet paper bag (still can’t). But the one thing I learned to do really well, and that was imprinted on that small reflex “lizard” part of my brain, was to apply a strangle (some guys call this a rear naked choke, but what we did was not a choke - obstruction of airway - but a reduction of bloodflow to brain (a strangle). When you’re LEO, walking away is not really an option, so if they were committed to fighting, they got strangled. Sometimes, they were working themselves up to it, making threats and such so I would keep them talking until I ready to move. Combine that with a disarming smile (yes seriously!) and an “aw shucks, I don’t want to fight you” act, plenty of large angry guys let me get close enough to go all spider monkey on them, and either submitted or woke up on the ground in handcuffs. With a properly applied strangle, it’s lights out in 3-4 seconds, max. The fight was over while they were still doing the monkey dance. And importantly, no-one got seriously hurt.
In one 5 year stretch, including stints working in a watch-house (police holding cells), I knocked out or submitted many dozens of guys with that one simple move, and I never once threw a punch or strike of any kind. I never once initiated those conflicts either (I’m a lover not a fighter) but if push had to come to shove, my go-to was always the strangle, often applied standing. In the world, as opposed to an MMA cage, I did not want to be on the ground any longer than I needed to be in case one of their mates stepped in and tried to kick my head off my shoulders.
I tell you this not to big-note myself as some awesome fighter (I’m not) but to illustrate the value of having one or more reflex go-to moves that work, and to reinforce another point FightinIrish made - sport fighting is not how it happens in the world. Avoid a street fight if you can. Otherwise, accept this truism… some days you’ll give a beating, other days you’ll take a beating
One last thing - my posts here may make it sounds like I have no respect for reality martial arts. This is actually the furthest thing from the truth.
If I had the opportunity to train with someone like Kelly McCan at his place in Fredericksburg - and he teaches everything from folding knives to guns to anti-terrorism shit - I would do it in a heartbeat and I’d spend as much time training as I absolutely could.
Or, if I could train with a Marc Macyoung or Rory Miller type, I would do that too. The guy sento trains under seems legit, and other people surely exist that are capable and great at doing this.
My problem is that the schools are relatively rare, and that the quality control is absent. So how, if you’re some greenhorn who’s never stepped foot in a gym, are you to tell that this guy is a fraud who’s never been in a fight, but THIS guy really trained the Marines in counter-terrorism operations?
At least boxing and wrestling you KNOW what you’re getting. If you box for three years, you can throw a punch, no fucking doubt about it. If you wrestle for three years, you can perform a good takedown and end up on top of a dude. If you do BJJ, (and I hate to say this, but…) you’re going to be able to pull off that rear naked choke (which is one of the finest moves in grappling) guaranteed.
If you take a weekly krav course taught by someone who’s never gone against a resisting opponent - and I mean, seriously resisting, as in competition or I’m-drunk-and-been-blowing-lines-since-Tuesday-and-I-think-you’re-trying-to-kill-me, I can’t take your advice seriously.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Pretty much exactly what all of us have been saying all along. Don’t start a fucking street fight, no matter how good you are. That’s all there is to it. Not that MMA is shitty for self defense, it’s that your MMA training never comes into play with a fucking brawl like this, because some thug cracks you upside the head with a weapon and then stomps on your face repeatedly. Case in point: this video. Endurance: check. Technique: check. Accuracy: check. Power: double check. Used to getting punched: check.
Didn’t fucking matter.[/quote]
Yup. The presence of multiple opponents and weapons also drastically changes things. MMA never, ever even addresses these differences or strategies to dealing with them because such things never occur in an MMA fight.[/quote]
No denying that. That said, I would be interested to know of any form of self defense, other than not being a wanker in the first place, that could have lead to a different outcome in this situation.
[/quote]
This is actually one of the most effective modes of self defense that I know of.[/quote]
Yea buddy. Amazing how much trouble you can avoid by just being NICE
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Pretty much exactly what all of us have been saying all along. Don’t start a fucking street fight, no matter how good you are. That’s all there is to it. Not that MMA is shitty for self defense, it’s that your MMA training never comes into play with a fucking brawl like this, because some thug cracks you upside the head with a weapon and then stomps on your face repeatedly. Case in point: this video. Endurance: check. Technique: check. Accuracy: check. Power: double check. Used to getting punched: check.
Didn’t fucking matter.[/quote]
Yup. The presence of multiple opponents and weapons also drastically changes things. MMA never, ever even addresses these differences or strategies to dealing with them because such things never occur in an MMA fight.[/quote]
No denying that. That said, I would be interested to know of any form of self defense, other than not being a wanker in the first place, that could have lead to a different outcome in this situation.
[/quote]
This is actually one of the most effective modes of self defense that I know of.[/quote]
Yea buddy. Amazing how much trouble you can avoid by just being NICE[/quote]
Shame most of us have to learn the hard way. I also completely agree with your post above. There’s no doubt that a few guys out there are not to be trifled with, and know their shit is battle tested. The problem is that you can practically count them on one hand.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
You’re talking about expert-level shit here. And honestly, who amongst us is even anywhere near at that level?
[/quote]
What I am talking about is the fact that humans have developed weapons training systems from millennia of experience of wars/battles for a reason. If everyone could use weapons to the same level of effect, then these systems would not have been developed. Even someone who simply learns the basic concepts of how to utilize or defend against an impact or edged weapon and then trains those skills in an intelligent/realistic manner will be quite a few “steps” ahead of someone who just randomly picks up the same weapon (just as someone doesn’t need to be a world champion boxer to considerably improve the effectiveness of their punching abilities). And, since we have already many times acknowledged that weapons are a very real and common threat in real world violence situations, it seems kind of silly to spend all of one’s available training time on practicing only unarmed combat skills.
Boxing is going to teach someone how to punch effectively (though, if someone wants to be able to do it for real they should spend at least some of their punching practice doing so without gloves or wraps as those won’t be present during their real fights), good footwork skills (the basics, not the fancy stuff), and some good defensive skills (again though, the really basic stuff is going to be the most beneficial in most cases), and wrestling is going to teach them good balance/how to avoid being easily taken down, some high percentage takedown skills should they need them (again though, they have to recognize the difference that environmental factors can have and select terrain appropriate takedowns), as well as some simple skills to get back to their feet should they find themselves on the ground.
All of these are worthwhile skills to learn for anyone looking to defend themselves in a real fight. There is a lot of stuff in sport boxing or wrestling that are not very directly applicable or could even get you into serious trouble should you do them in the wrong situation though. And again, even as useful as these skills are, they do not at all address the realities of weapons, ambushes, verbal/postural considerations, legal/moral ramifications, post conflict considerations, or a whole host of other relevant real world combat components.
Anyone who trains in an environment where they are always made to feel comfortable, has no intensity, and on top of that the person only puts in an hour a week is going to be in for a rude awakening should they find themselves in a serious situation, regardless of whether they practice boxing, wrestling, Krav, Sento, WW2 combatives, etc… That has more to do with the level of effort and realism than the name of the art though.
I do agree that (at least in the States) boxing and wrestling are generally available and fairly consistent systems which for the most part always involve training against resistance, have a good focus on conditioning, and who’s base level skills are simple enough to be picked up fairly quickly by most of the population. In that regard they can be good choices, and if someone had to choose between training in one of them and a system that never trained with resistance/sparred, didn’t teach the importance of physical conditioning and taught it’s students BS techniques or tactics, then I’d tell them to choose the former.
Heck, even if someone has access to a quality RMA school I think that training in boxing and wrestling can be great supplemental training endeavors (as long as the students always view the skills through an RMA lense). That is the way that my lineage/instructors have always approached things (I have lineage to Rocky Marciano, Willie Pep, Sugar Ray Robinson, Eddie Futch, Joe Lewis, Carlson Gracie, Ricardo Almeida, Wally Jay, Masaaki Hatsumi, Bruce Lee and quite a few other highly successful fighters and sport martial artists). We bring in world champion boxers, kick boxers, BJJ guys, and Olympic Medalist wrestlers to help our students take their skills in those different areas to the next level.
But the truth is that a lot of what is taught in those systems do not transfer all that well to real world combat, as well as them again being completely devoid of other relevant skill sets/components. I know that is true because we do both. We train in and with some of the best boxers, wrestlers, BJJ practitioners, and kick boxers/Muay Thai fighters in the world, but we also have the benefit of also training with Swat team leaders, Prison cell extraction personnel, Green Berets, Special Forces members, Marines, LEO instructors/officers, and from the experience gained from literally thousands of real street fights (quite a few of which were involving multiple opponents). So I’m not talking from the perspective of some suburban “softie” who has never been in a real fight before or is naive to the realities of street violence; I’m talking from the perspective of people who have spent their lives immersed in real life and death violence and lived to tell the tale and pass on their knowledge.
Sport fighting is great and it’s a lot of fun, I do it and encourage others to do so as well, but it’s missing A LOT when it comes to preparing someone for a real serious survival situation.
Anybody know his strengths and weaknesses? MMA is such a generic phrase. Under that there are still people who are good at boxing and others better at wrestling. Not saying he’s either but his punches didn’t seem to have any purpose behind them. At all times it seemed as if he was trying to avoid all forms of confrontation. It may have been a different outcome if he was able to severely hurt somebody initially or at some point. That guy had nowhere to run. After every strike his opponent was throwing even more punches.
Although it’s also possible that he may have just been scared.
is an argument this elaborate really needed? a guy snuck up from behind him and hit him in the head with a bat. show me any martial art thats going to defend against that, looked like they were handling themselves pretty well up until that point
[quote]Spooner21 wrote:
is an argument this elaborate really needed? a guy snuck up from behind him and hit him in the head with a bat. show me any martial art thats going to defend against that, looked like they were handling themselves pretty well up until that point[/quote]
Actually it was his buddy that got snuck up on and hit over the head with the bat (this was actually mentioned earlier in the thread). Falco saw the stick wielding attacker coming, but didn’t look like he knew how to deal with the oncoming attack effectively and thus got overwhelmed and KO’d.
Again though, the most important point is the fact that Falco and his friend were acting like “tough guy” MMA fighters and thus chose to stick around and prove how tough they were (and paid the price for doing so) instead of hitting first, hard, and then getting the hell out of there the first chance they got, or just not acting like disrespectful punks in the first place.
I think this also gives insight to the type of response you should adopt if you’re gonna be tough guy fuck face against a crowd. If you’re gonna stick around, you need to up your level of aggression immediately and be relentless.
Falco and Fox stood around, allowing their opponents to re-arm/organize/position themselves. I think if they would have started fighting for their lives from the get go, they may have had a chance.