Did you mean to quote me on that one? I don’t really know where we were talking about thermogenesis or even fat loss.
Anyway, I think your points 2 and 3 are where the magic potentially lies. As for point 1, any kind of fasting will improve insulin sensitivity in both muscle and fat cells, which is why the day after I still plan on holding off on the big eating (and the carbs) until post-workout. Unless pulse-fasting works through some other mechanism I’m not aware of, it’s not going to improve only muscle insulin sensitivity.
[quote]wfifer wrote:
Did you mean to quote me on that one? I don’t really know where we were talking about thermogenesis or even fat loss.
Anyway, I think your points 2 and 3 are where the magic potentially lies. As for point 1, any kind of fasting will improve insulin sensitivity in both muscle and fat cells, which is why the day after I still plan on holding off on the big eating (and the carbs) until post-workout. Unless pulse-fasting works through some other mechanism I’m not aware of, it’s not going to improve only muscle insulin sensitivity. [/quote]
Yeah I don’t know why I quoted you. I think you were spot on in your answer to doubleh’s question about ketosis. My point was much more general. Since he asked about Ketosis, that’s why I talked about thermogenesis. I thought I recalled them using the term in the livespill.
Anyway, if a person tries Pulse Fasting, I wouldn’t personally recommend a ketogenic diet, but to each his own. I would carb cycle and incorporate that with something like the Anaconda protocol.
I agree with your about not going crazy the day after the fast too. Though, even if fat cells are more receptive to insulin, perhaps the amount of fat burned on the Pulse Fast day will make all the difference in the world. It’s all just a guess on my part. Probably not the most educated guess at this point. As far as point 1, I don’t really know if there is any credibility, but perhaps the multiple insulin spikes in a calorie deficit does something to fat storage/burning enzymes. I dunno. We’ll have to wait for many people’s results to draw any conclusions.
dramatically improving insulin sensitivity, 2) going ketogenic in a hurry, 3) staying anabolic in a caloric deficit (with hormones optimized).
:)[/quote]
An EXCELLENT summation, for some reason there seems to be a ridiculous amount of confusion surrounding this fasting protocol (try reading through the LiveSpill…)
The more time I’ve let pass after my first MAG-10 pulse the more I’m thinking it was a success. I feel like a lot of good things have happened physique-wise over these past few days and I’m leaning toward running it again next Sunday I think. If all goes well I’ll post pictures after a month or so.
The more time I’ve let pass after my first MAG-10 pulse the more I’m thinking it was a success. I feel like a lot of good things have happened physique-wise over these past few days and I’m leaning toward running it again next Sunday I think. If all goes well I’ll post pictures after a month or so. [/quote]
That would be great. Are you going to keep track of cals or macros in anyway or just play it by ear?
[quote]freshandrew626 wrote:
My schedule is a busy one I workout in the mornings before I go to school, how would I pulse if I workout M-TH from 8-930AM?[/quote]
I had a similar question. Does anyone know if it is for some reason really optimal to workout in the evening on the fast, or would a morning/noon workout be fine as well?[/quote]
i asked this on the LiveSpill and they said that it is fine to tweak with it as needed. i assume just keep the 3 pulses peri-workout and the rest the same. i’d rather workout w/ some Power Drive in me anyway as i’m used to it now.
Got a questions re where to place the fast day when cheating…when leaning out.
BEFORE or AFTER the cheat day?..From reading info John Roman has put out, he advocates a fast after a cheat day which made sense to me, so this is what I did last weekend with no problems.
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
That would be great. Are you going to keep track of cals or macros in anyway or just play it by ear?
[/quote]
Well, I wish I had more control over things, but calories will be according to when/how many workouts I have this week and next. Most days I’ve got class from 9-2 and then I work from 4-12 each night. Running it on Sunday will be nice because I should be able to fit in a neural charge workout that day and a good heavy session on Monday. As far as macros go I’m going to stick to pretty much gorging on carbs for a couple days following. I ate like crap after my first fast and noticed nothing bad. If I can clean it up a bit I might actually have some good pictures to take.
Which is one nice component of spending a decent chunk of change on supplements, when I’m taking them I tend to clean up my act in other ways as well, not wanting to let the money go to waste as it were.
[quote]E99_Curt wrote:
i asked this on the LiveSpill and they said that it is fine to tweak with it as needed. i assume just keep the 3 pulses peri-workout and the rest the same. i’d rather workout w/ some Power Drive in me anyway as i’m used to it now.[/quote]
Yeah, for some reason they avoided this question in the LiveSpill (a few people including me asked it there). The only answer that seemed somewhat directed toward it was soemthing to the extent of “don’t sweat it so much it’s hard to screw up, just do it…” Which is fine, but i’m not worried about overcomplicated things I am just a little curious and interested in the ideal.
My only (BS) guess would be that if you work out earlier on in the day everything is fine, but you may feel hungrier, quicker than someone who works out later in the day. And I sure was hungry…
I mean, this is why I want the “guys in lab coats” to offer some explanations. There may be a lot more than insulin at play here.
I don’t know why anyone would want to be in ketosis long-term, although I wonder (as I believe you mentioned) if already being in ketosis would enhance the pulse-fast, or if it would make sense to take advantage of ketosis post-fast. It’s really the latter that I’m interested in and will be experimenting with myself.
I’m leaning toward looking at this as a way to condense the ketosis part of a CKD to a day or so. If that’s the case…it’s pretty freakin’ exciting.
Still rolling with the ketosis theory, here’s a really interesting excerpt from Lyle McDonald on carbing up on a CKD:
"Possibly the biggest fear many individuals on a ketogenic diet have about the carb-load is the potential to regain body fat due to the high number of calories being consumed (almost double maintenance during the first 24 hours). We will see that fat gain during the carb-up should be minimal as long as a few guidelines are followed. In a study which looked surprisingly like a CKD, subjects consumed a low-carb, high fat (but non-ketogenic) diet for 5 days and depleted muscle glycogen with exercise (21).
Subjects were then given a total 500 grams of carbohydrate in three divided meals. During the first 24 hours, despite the high calorie (and carb) intake, there was a negative fat balance of 88 grams meaning that fat was actually lost during the period of high-carbohydrate eating. When muscle glycogen is depleted, incoming carbohydrates appear to be used preferentially to refill glycogen stores, and fat continues to be used for energy production.
Additionally the excess carbohydrates which were not stored as glycogen were used for energy (21). In general, the synthesis of fat from glycogen (referred to as De Novo Lipogenesis) in the short term is fairly small (22,23). During carbohydrate overfeeding, there is a decrease in fat use for energy. Most fat gain occurring during high carbohydrate overfeeding is from storage of excessive fat intake (24). Therefore as long as fat intake is kept relatively low (below 88 grams) during the carb-up phase of the CKD, there should be a minimal fat regain.
In a similar study, individuals consumed a low-carb, high fat diet for 5 days and then consumed very large amounts of carbohydrates (700 to 900 grams per day) over a five day period (25). During the first 24 hours, with a carbohydrate intake of 700 grams and a fat intake of 60 grams per day, there was a fat gain of only 7 grams. As with the previous study discussed, this indicates that the body continued to use fat for fuel during this time period. In the second 24 hours, with an intake of 800 grams of carbohydrate and a fat intake of 97 grams, there was a fat gain of 127 grams (25) indicating that the body had shifted out of ‘fat burning’ mode as muscle glycogen stores became full.
This is unlike the suggestions being made for the CKD, where the carbohydrate intake during the second 24 hours will be lower than in the first 24 hours. A large fat gain, as seen in this study would not be expected to occur on a CKD. As long as fat intake is kept low and carbohydrate intake is reduced to approximately 5 gram/kg lean body mass during the second 24 hours, fat regain should be minimal. Once again, individuals are encouraged to keep track of changes in body composition with different amounts and durations of carb-loading to determine what works for them. Those looking to maximize fat loss may prefer only a 24 hour carb-up. This allows more potential days in ketosis for fat loss to occur as well as making it more difficult to regain significant amounts of body fat."
This is great stuff. Thanks for digging up this info. The calculations look a lot like what CT recommends for carbing up for a contest (see the bottom)
[quote]wfifer wrote:
Still rolling with the ketosis theory,
Subjects were then given a total 500 grams of carbohydrate in three divided meals. During the first 24 hours, despite the high calorie (and carb) intake, there was a negative fat balance of 88 grams meaning that fat was actually lost during the period of high-carbohydrate eating.
When muscle glycogen is depleted, incoming carbohydrates appear to be used preferentially to refill glycogen stores, and fat continues to be used for energy production.
Additionally the excess carbohydrates which were not stored as glycogen were used for energy (21)
In general, the synthesis of fat from glycogen (referred to as De Novo Lipogenesis) in the short term is fairly small (22,23). During carbohydrate overfeeding, there is a decrease in fat use for energy. [u]Most fat gain occurring during high carbohydrate overfeeding is from storage of excessive fat intake (24). Therefore as long as fat intake is kept relatively low (below 88 grams) during the carb-up phase of the CKD, there should be a minimal fat regain.[/u][/quote] Very cool stuff.
[quote] In a similar study, …the body continued to use fat for fuel during this time period. In the second 24 hours, with an intake of 800 grams of carbohydrate and a fat intake of 97 grams, there was a fat gain of 127 grams (25) indicating that the body had shifted out of ‘fat burning’ mode as muscle glycogen stores became full.[/quote] Righteous. Thanks for this info!
Good stuff.
Here is CT’s response about how to roughly calculate how much glycogen a muscle can hold and how to properly carb up.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Hi CT,
…do you have a guideline on how much carbs (muscle) can “soak up” in 24 hrs (2 grams per lb? 2.5? 3? 3.25?), or am I thinking about this the wrong way? Obviously I have to go with how my body responds visually and base my actions off of this, I just was wondering if this is something that can be approximated. Thanks for your time.[/quote]
As a rule of thumb you can store 3 to 3.5g of glucose per pound of lean body mass under normal circumstances.
Under carb-loading circumstances this number increases up to 4 to 5g per pound of LBM. Carb-loading circumstances mean being deprived of carbs for 4-6 days to empty glycogen stores. Roughly 78% is stored in the muscles, 18% in the liver, and 4% in the bloodstream.
You do need to fill the liver before optimally loading the muscles and the carbs in the bloostream will make you vascular.
So if someone has a lean body mass of 166lbs the optimal amount of carbs would be around 700g.
One could be simple about this and simply consume that 700g of carbs throughout the loading period.
If one wants to be really anal about it, it could look something like this:
125g of fructose (fruits) at the very beginning of the carb-up period to fill liver glycogen right away.
545g of starchy carbs (potatoes and sweet potatoes being ideal as they are less allergenic than rice, oatmeal, pasta, bread, etc. and will cause less water retention), 500 of those are consumed over the main loading day, roughly 80g for 6 meals.
45g of starchy carbs and 30g of simple sugar are consumed the breakfast of the show or photo shoot (I like pancakes with maple syrup).
I really dig the strategy that seems to be coming together. Obviously the # of grams of carbs (per pound of lean mass) will vary slightly by individual, largely due to workout intensity and other activity, but these figures will serve as a good starting place. I’m not sure if complete ketosis could be reached in only one day.
Regardless of carb and fat grams (per the recommendations), I wonder how many total cals would be appropriate for the day after the “Pulse Fast.” Perhaps weekly cals would be a more reasonable tracking basis since the Pulse Fast day is so low in calories. Weekly calories seem like they would be much easier to track.
My package came in the mail today, so I’ll be able to do the fast again but with Power Drive and Alpha-GPC. I’ll report back tomorrow night or Friday report the difference.
This all clearly begs the question: what are glycogen stores like the day after? Liver’s gonna be depleted. A few different animal studies show a reduction of muscle glycogen of 50% with a day’s worth of normal activity when fasted. Would have to be even more with any kind of a workout, and more on top of that if next day starts out low-carb.
I don’t normally do any carbs pre-workout, but I may have to reverse that. Maybe a FINiBAR an hour before, and my usual maltodextrin/Anaconda mix about 15 minutes into the workout. Lyle actually recommends this.
I think the take-home message of the article is that, regardless of exactly how much it takes to refill glycogen, overeating carbs is not going to lead to significant fat gain provided fat intake is kept low. Will probably go a little higher on protein and a little lower on carbs than Lyle suggests. Calories will be about 26 x BW. A bit less than I originally imagined, but I cut it all out of my fat intake in light of the article. It pays to re-read old bookmarks!
I’m going to do a trial fast run tomorrow, I got GPC and MAG-10 but no Power Drive.
I might do x3 dose of GPC just to get some more coline in.
The next day should be fun. Egg whites, tuna, Turkey breast and whey. Then about a truckload of potatoes, a strength session in the AM, some band-work and bodyweight stuff in the PM.
I think it’s going to be tough to get your muscles super depleted of glycogen in just one day, especially if you’re doing no workout, or a low volume workout.
[quote]EasyRhino wrote:
I think it’s going to be tough to get your muscles super depleted of glycogen in just one day, especially if you’re doing no workout, or a low volume workout.[/quote]
Yeah you’re probably right
