Louie Simmons Video

Training Powerlifting
21

[quote]Seattle_Lifter wrote:
rmccart1 wrote:
One thing I’m not sure about is the loading for the box squats. I think he said he cycles from 40-50% in the pendulum wave, but what about raw lifters and athletes? If I wanted to incorporate dynamic box squats into my routine, would I still use 40-50%, or would it be lighter? Do you have to figure the weight of chain in there too, or is it just the percent of bar weight, plus the chain?

The 40-50% is for a skilled suited lifter. I think he said that if you use you max on the speed box you could do 3 week waves of 75, 80 and 85%. This got me to thinking that I was using too little on my speed days. Did anyone else catch that?

For chain weight the way he suggests is that at the top only half of the chain weight is off the ground and that it will completely deload before you get to the bottom position. Therefore the chain weight is in addition to the percent. I think many people set it up so they still have chain weight on the bar while sitting on the box.[/quote]

85% for speed squats? No way man. His numbers typically jump up by only about 10% if you’re raw. This is the same thing that Wendler/Tate espouse. So, you’re looking at 50-60% for a raw lifter, or perhaps 60-70% for a raw lifter depending on the skill level and how much speed the bar has.

Bar speed is the be all and end all of dynamic day, if it drops, you’re going too heavy, according to Louie, Tate, and company. Only exception may be banded work, because of the overspeed effect and the incredible strain they place on lifters, but he generally drops percents even more for DE banded squats, although ihe may have changed again. Raw beginners may be able to use 80% but that’s because as Dan John said they can often do 5 reps with 90+% of their 1RM, since they are not coordinated.

As far as chains go, my understanding is that you are to get as much of the chain off the ground as you can, as long as it completely deloads the big ones at the bottom. For me, this is generally almost the entire chain (exception is the bench).

22

[quote]lbh110 wrote:
so heavythrower, since you worked with the man, you feel like spreading the knowledge to us about how to properly box squat?

After watching the movie and seeing all this praise, I’m becoming increasingly more interested in box

any tips, common mistakes etc?[/quote]

Not that he couldn’t do a good job himself, but Dave Tate has written a couple articles here and there are probably dozens between elitefts.com and westside-barbell.com on how to properly box squat. The only thing that needs to change is bringing the stance in slightly if you won’t be wearing briefs. I believe Dave’s article here is called squatting from head to toe.

23

you are right, others, like Dave Tate, can explain this better than me.

even though video is very useful, and i dont know how i would have done if i had access to all the media that is available now, i did not do it right until i was coached in person.

if you can find a gym has some decent competitive powerlifters, and they box squat, that would be your best bet.

oh, and in todays mult-ply/monolift powerlifting game, “decent” means at least 600-700lb squats if they are under 200lbs, and 800-900 if they over 200lbs.

24

oh, by the way scott m, where did you find that old black and white picture of me, back when i had hair? i am flattered that you are using it as your avatar, really, i am blushing.

25

In the video Louie stated that one should be able to full squat 2xBW before using depth jumps in training.

He obviously likes box squats, and seems to indicate that full squats are not necessary in training the athlete.

Not talking about power lifters here

Therefore what sort of prerequisite box squat numbers are necessary before using depth jumps?

Or is the full squat still useful?

Not trying to get into the full squat vs. box squat debate, just trying to clear some things up.

26

lol, good call Scott M, sometimes i get lazy and forget about the search tool

No gym that i have been to has ever been serious PL or really anything, maybe ill get lucky when im florida for the winter and find a garage with some people that go hard

27

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Seattle_Lifter wrote:
rmccart1 wrote:
One thing I’m not sure about is the loading for the box squats. I think he said he cycles from 40-50% in the pendulum wave, but what about raw lifters and athletes? If I wanted to incorporate dynamic box squats into my routine, would I still use 40-50%, or would it be lighter? Do you have to figure the weight of chain in there too, or is it just the percent of bar weight, plus the chain?

The 40-50% is for a skilled suited lifter. I think he said that if you use you max on the speed box you could do 3 week waves of 75, 80 and 85%. This got me to thinking that I was using too little on my speed days. Did anyone else catch that?

For chain weight the way he suggests is that at the top only half of the chain weight is off the ground and that it will completely deload before you get to the bottom position. Therefore the chain weight is in addition to the percent. I think many people set it up so they still have chain weight on the bar while sitting on the box.

85% for speed squats? No way man. His numbers typically jump up by only about 10% if you’re raw. This is the same thing that Wendler/Tate espouse. So, you’re looking at 50-60% for a raw lifter, or perhaps 60-70% for a raw lifter depending on the skill level and how much speed the bar has.

Bar speed is the be all and end all of dynamic day, if it drops, you’re going too heavy, according to Louie, Tate, and company. Only exception may be banded work, because of the overspeed effect and the incredible strain they place on lifters, but he generally drops percents even more for DE banded squats, although ihe may have changed again. Raw beginners may be able to use 80% but that’s because as Dan John said they can often do 5 reps with 90+% of their 1RM, since they are not coordinated.

As far as chains go, my understanding is that you are to get as much of the chain off the ground as you can, as long as it completely deloads the big ones at the bottom. For me, this is generally almost the entire chain (exception is the bench).[/quote]

That’s what I was thinking too. However at just after minute 13 Louie answers a question about what they weight they use. After the coach clarifies the question in terms of %1rm of the box squat Louie says week 1 75%, week 2 80% and week 3 85%.

I did a few rough calculations and the 50-60 geared seems to go along with quite a bit higher percents when talking in terms of the max 1rm box squat. I used assumption that if you squat 600 in gear you could squat around 450 with belt only and using a box would be a little harder and you might have a box max of 425. Using the 50-60% of geared lifts does yield fairly high percents in terms of a person’s 1RM box squat.

	     Week 1	Week 2 	Week 3

1 RM Wave Weights 300 330 360
600 Geared Squat 50% 55% 60%
450 Raw Squat 67% 73% 80%
425 Raw Box Squat 71% 78% 85%

I don’t squat with gear any more and I think I’ve used too low of weight for speed days and that has hindered my progress. I’m definitely not talking about novices here. If you’ve been training hard for 3 years or more many people are going to be around 4-6rm with an 85% load. The first 2 reps of a 4-6 rm load should be relatively quick.

28

interesting, Seattle. Everything I’ve read says go lighter than that. Tate explicitly recommends only 60-70% 1RM for raw lifters.

At any rate, I know I personally couldn’t handle 85% and keep my bar speed up.

29

[quote]lbh110 wrote:
this video did alot of confusing for me, sounds like he made some good points but i really need it in writing with some pics so i can understand what the hell he’s talking about

also i love where he goes ‘if i had olympic lifters, america would have gold metals’[/quote]

I loved the video but I’m curious to know more about how he would train Olympic lifters? Would he really have them do Box squats? I can’t see how that would help the snatch and Clean and Jerk? He goes on about keeping the knee from drifting over the foot but in the snatch and clean and jerk the knee has to travel past the foot?

He is obviously a Genius when it comes to the sport of Powerlifting but what makes him think he could do better at training Olympic Lifters then coaches like Gayle Hatch have? What would he do different? i get confused when he says in articles about getting this stuff from old Soviet Literature but Box squats and that squatting technique?

I cant imagine Rigert, Aleveev, Kurlovich, Teranenko, Vardenian, etc…squatted that way? I’ve seen all the Milo videos and the squat technique Bulgarians, Greeks, Germans, Cubans etc. goes against everything he says? You can’t tell me Dimas is “spreading the floor” when he stands with 200kg in the clean? Just confused and curious because I’ve spent a lot of time trying to squat like I see in those videos.

30

I think he was only commenting on the lack of strength amongst American lifters. His system is best at producing power and strength, and that is what American lifters lack in comparison to their European counterparts. Obviously, a big front squat and good technique would still be mandatory. But if a lifter lacks explosive hip power - or rather, if that is the “weak link” - then box squats might be just the thing needed.

31

[quote]IvanDmitritch wrote:
I think he was only commenting on the lack of strength amongst American lifters. His system is best at producing power and strength, and that is what American lifters lack in comparison to their European counterparts. Obviously, a big front squat and good technique would still be mandatory. But if a lifter lacks explosive hip power - or rather, if that is the “weak link” - than box squats might be just the thing needed. [/quote]

exactly, on another forum, i had some heated discussions with a couple of young american olympic lifters, both were in there mid twenties, just under 200lbs, and neither one could squat 400lbs.

these guys spent A LOT of time talking about every minute detail of their technique, they would post videos of their o-lifts and then analyze them frame by frame, reading their exchangeds made my head hurt with all the detail and technical talk.

well, fuck, they were WEAK!!!

when i dare suggest they should spend more time getting their squats and front squats and deadlifts up, they were very incensed, and kept arguing that speed and technique was more important than strength, blah-blah.

this is a common thought process in american O-lifting.

fuck that, you need to be STRONG.

Bruce Wilhelm(great American O-lifter and strong-man fomr many years ago) was asked about what was wrong with O-lifting in this country today, he said the same thing,(this was in an interview in MILO no less) that we needed to be stronger.

he said he had met V. Alexia and when asked about what he learned about him, he was quoted “he is one STRONG puppy!”

it can be that simple.

you-tube search Travis Mash, you will see how westside can be adapted to O-lifting.

32

…

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=travis+mash&search=Search

33

[quote]lbh110 wrote:
lol, good call Scott M, sometimes i get lazy and forget about the search tool

No gym that i have been to has ever been serious PL or really anything, maybe ill get lucky when im florida for the winter and find a garage with some people that go hard[/quote]

www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/4420

34

[quote]Blongo wrote:
I

Or is the full squat still useful?

Not trying to get into the full squat vs. box squat debate, just trying to clear some things up.[/quote]

No man, full squats suck fro strength and power development. I thought everyone knew that.

35

I’m not sure but I THINK Hanley is being ironic guys :stuck_out_tongue:

36

[quote]molnes wrote:
I’m not sure but I THINK Hanley is being ironic guys :p[/quote]

Psssssshhhh… it’s ALL about box squats and GHRs.

37

[quote]Hanley wrote:
molnes wrote:
I’m not sure but I THINK Hanley is being ironic guys :stuck_out_tongue:

Psssssshhhh… it’s ALL about box squats and GHRs.[/quote]

It’s all about the posterior chain work

DUH

38

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
…

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=travis+mash&search=Search [/quote]

I remember some coaches saying that oly lifts using bands and chains screw up technique. I hope it doesn’t for this case.

39

[quote]undeadlift wrote:
heavythrower wrote:
…

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=travis+mash&search=Search

I remember some coaches saying that oly lifts using bands and chains screw up technique. I hope it doesn’t for this case.[/quote]

Travis is not a good weightlifter. Not good in the sense he’s not gonna go to the olympics or make the national team.

I don’t understand why he thinks using bands and chains will benefit him when his technique looks so off.

40

Hanley,

is all about getting stronger.

i agree, that in this particular case(travis mash) he is already plenty strong, so he would do well to get coached and improving technique would suit HIM better.

but as in the case i described above, if you are in your 20’s, about 200lbs, and cant full squat 400lbs, you should give more attention to building strength. box squats, gm, ghr, chains, bands, etc will do that.