If I stop taking fish oil both of my elbows start to hurt in 3 or 4 days. That always reminds me why I take the stuff.
[quote]Wilba wrote:
If I stop taking fish oil both of my elbows start to hurt in 3 or 4 days. That always reminds me why I take the stuff.[/quote]
I have been taking Flameout for about, oh gosh, two years now. I think since the day Biotest came out with it. You know what is really weird? When you type out ‘Biotest’ while writing a message on T-Nation, it underlines in red, like it doesn’t recognize the word or something is misspelled. Crazy ass technology, and some shit still makes me scratch my head.
But thanks for the shout out, bro. I do not plan on stopping taking Flameout, like, ever. I will always keep my flame lit, so to speak. So as not to let my flame go out. Just call me a flamer. No, that doesn’t work. Ahh, fuck it.
Cortisone and other pharmaceutical adrenal hormones [Corticosteroid] can be useful. Use for short durations. These drugs are very catabolic and can lead to muscle wasting and bone loss. Long term use is quite dangerous. That is why you see different outcomes in your reading.
You need to consider what could have contributed to this injury. Diet and lifestyle can be a contributor.
EFAs [essential fatty acids] such as fish oils are anti inflammatory.
Inflammation itself is damaging and once in place, it can be a self perpetuating condition. Inflammation releases free radicals and other materials that are damaging. You should be taking a number of anti-oxidants to protect your tissues from secondary damage. Inflation in one part of the body affects the whole body. It one has a chronic infection, the effects are everywhere. Examples of chronic infections are gum disease/inflamation, Lyme disease, parasites and sometimes bad bacteria in the gut. You can use a good quality probiotic to deal with the latter. You may have been exposed to some bacterial or parasites during training/deployment. Such chronic problems also can lead to adrenal fatigue.
Mechanical: If there is constant tension in the tendons or compression in the joints, healing and recover cannot occur. These things can happen if the adjacent muscles are tight. Inflammation in the joints can irritate nerves and irritated nerves can keep muscles tight. In these situations, one needs to feel the muscles for tight spots or knots. Someone doing massage would be better able to do this, but you can probably self access to some extent. With massage, these muscles can be made soft and supple when relaxed. This will facilitate healing and circulation. If the muscles are tight, then circulation at rest is limited and recovery is limited. When knots in muscle are broken down [deep tissue work can be painful], there will also be some healing response that involves local muscle growth factors. Muscle problems can be non localized. The root problem could be in you neck, upper back, scapulae, or shoulders - rotator cuff. Do not ignore the fore arms. Note range of motion and note if relaxed range of motion is muscle or joint limited. If muscle limited, the muscles that are limiting the range of motion can be massaged.
So root cause can involve mechanical, bacterial, parasites, diet, vitamin deficiencies etc. Corticosteroids [when misused] and surgery can can make things worse.
You should try different things and you will not be able to ID what worked and what did not contribute. You should do many things that contribute to general health. This should include high dose vitamin-D.
Note that some drug anti-inflammatories can decrease your livers clearance of estrogens, which leads to lower T and significant adverse shifts in T:E ratios.
[quote]KSman wrote:
Cortisone and other pharmaceutical adrenal hormones [Corticosteroid] can be useful. Use for short durations. These drugs are very catabolic and can lead to muscle wasting and bone loss. Long term use is quite dangerous. That is why you see different outcomes in your reading.
You need to consider what could have contributed to this injury. Diet and lifestyle can be a contributor.
EFAs [essential fatty acids] such as fish oils are anti inflammatory.
Inflammation itself is damaging and once in place, it can be a self perpetuating condition. Inflammation releases free radicals and other materials that are damaging. You should be taking a number of anti-oxidants to protect your tissues from secondary damage. Inflation in one part of the body affects the whole body. It one has a chronic infection, the effects are everywhere. Examples of chronic infections are gum disease/inflamation, Lyme disease, parasites and sometimes bad bacteria in the gut. You can use a good quality probiotic to deal with the latter. You may have been exposed to some bacterial or parasites during training/deployment. Such chronic problems also can lead to adrenal fatigue.
Mechanical: If there is constant tension in the tendons or compression in the joints, healing and recover cannot occur. These things can happen if the adjacent muscles are tight. Inflammation in the joints can irritate nerves and irritated nerves can keep muscles tight. In these situations, one needs to feel the muscles for tight spots or knots. Someone doing massage would be better able to do this, but you can probably self access to some extent. With massage, these muscles can be made soft and supple when relaxed. This will facilitate healing and circulation. If the muscles are tight, then circulation at rest is limited and recovery is limited. When knots in muscle are broken down [deep tissue work can be painful], there will also be some healing response that involves local muscle growth factors. Muscle problems can be non localized. The root problem could be in you neck, upper back, scapulae, or shoulders - rotator cuff. Do not ignore the fore arms. Note range of motion and note if relaxed range of motion is muscle or joint limited. If muscle limited, the muscles that are limiting the range of motion can be massaged.
So root cause can involve mechanical, bacterial, parasites, diet, vitamin deficiencies etc. Corticosteroids [when misused] and surgery can can make things worse.
You should try different things and you will not be able to ID what worked and what did not contribute. You should do many things that contribute to general health. This should include high dose vitamin-D.
Note that some drug anti-inflammatories can decrease your livers clearance of estrogens, which leads to lower T and significant adverse shifts in T:E ratios.
[/quote]
Wow. This was a great post, one of the more helpful I have seen in a while.
KSman,
Thank you so much for that fantastic post. I am amazed that you mentioned bacterial/gut disturbances. I know this is wayyyyy TMII (too much Internet info), but I have thought that I was developing IBS or something. I did go buy a probiotic for it about a year ago, and have since not taken it once the bottle ran out. Not sure why, it is only like twenty dollars a month. And the high dose Vit D? What would you consider high-dose, sir? (You seem like a doctor to me, in my little world of this thread; hence the formality.)
Also, major question that has been on my mind for a few days: If it is said that one injection of coritsone (a corticosteroid) can cause ligaments to weaken, then wouldn’t anabolic steroid users who inject way more often into several (albeit different) parts of the body be just as more subject to this damage as well? If not more? I do not take AAS, and have never taken them (I am only 30, and in the Marine Corps HAPPY BIRTHDAY MARINES!). And since I have known men who have used steroids without encountering this problem, is it suffice to say that one or two cortisone injections will not pose that significant a risk as I am being alarmed?
And your advice on the ultrasound kit? Only $100. You say get it, I get it. I turn 31 on the 14th so I have an excuse.
My wife is a sweetheart and rubs my elbows and arms once every couple nights. We had the USMC B-Day Ball last night, don’t have the pics downloaded yet, but here is one from a year ago.
Thank you again, KSman, and all of the others who have read and posted in this thread. I will correct my problem!
Do not confuse anabolic steroids with these other adrenal steroids. Note that steroids are a chemical family that includes cholesterol which is the starting point for all of these. Anabolic steroids improve connective tissue. One of them is very good for joint and connective tissue healing. Can’t recall which, someone else here can speak to that. Anabolic steroids build up things made of protein. Corticosteroids cause muscle wasting and weaken connective tissue when used too long, but can have good benefits with short term use. Corticosteroids used long term reduce the collagen matrix in bones, leading to bone loss and fractures.
I am an engineer.
Vitamin-D: Many have started advocating 2,000iu per day. Others 4000-6000iu per day. Blood testing shows that some need more to achieve optimal levels. You need less if getting significant sun exposure. In higher latitudes needs are higher and those with dark skin in higher latitudes are at very high risk in terms of reduced vit-D from reduced effects of sunlight.
Study this:
Roger. I read that wiki and browsed some of the links. There is so much info out there, the best way to make an informed decision is to deeply educate oneself.
I hope someone chimes in with the name of that steroid so I can go to my PA ([Physician’s Assistant] he is a great guy, navy, and the equivalent rank as me), and run this by him (which he will most likely laugh and call me a motivated jarhead and tell me to slow down).
I just got back from Borders with Claire Davies’ ‘The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook.’ I am very excited to read it, as it has lots uv pikshers n stuf, and I am tired of being in pain, even as I write this (I dream about jiu jitsu: new moves, what I should have done when that guy put me in this position; I want so badly to be pain free).
KSman, my good engineer, lastly, should I buy the ultrasound kit?
If I could jump in and say take it easy on rolling so much. You probaly have stretched bicep tendons and some elbow/tendon damage from getting arm barred alot and not healing enough. Take it easy also on the lifting esp. deadlifts. (if done with poor form can really mess up your elbows).
Take your fish oil and msm supplements.
It took me 6-9 months to recover from the same problems you have. I now only roll 1 a week for 2 hours or so.
Good luck.
ps: you gots a good looking girl there 
pps: Deca Durabolin is the Anabolic your after.
My doctor prescribed a high dosage of vitamin D for me as I have been stuck with joint pain pretty much from my feet to my shoulders. It flares up 2-3 times a year.
I have been taking glucosamine, MSM & Flameout, for years but they don’t bring any relief when I have a flare up like this.
Just took my first twice-a-week 50,000 IU of vitamin D pill.
[quote]FISCHER613 wrote:
If I could jump in and say take it easy on rolling so much. You probaly have stretched bicep tendons and some elbow/tendon damage from getting arm barred alot and not healing enough. Take it easy also on the lifting esp. deadlifts. (if done with poor form can really mess up your elbows).
Take your fish oil and msm supplements.
It took me 6-9 months to recover from the same problems you have. I now only roll 1 a week for 2 hours or so.
Good luck.
ps: you gots a good looking girl there
pps: Deca Durabolin is the Anabolic your after.[/quote]
Thanks, Fisch. Yeah, I gots real lucky. She treats me well, too.
Hmmm, I wonder if my military doc will give me deca?..hehe
Okay, okay! I am just such a stubborn ass. I just cannot slow down. I wish I had discovered jiu jitsu as a child. Maybe I can live through my unborn children. Yes!! You talked me on to my solution. You, my friend, are a genius. ‘Ohhhh, sweetie!!!’
I…can’t…smile.
[quote]eric_lacrosse wrote:
My doctor prescribed a high dosage of vitamin D for me as I have been stuck with joint pain pretty much from my feet to my shoulders. It flares up 2-3 times a year.
I have been taking glucosamine, MSM & Flameout, for years but they don’t bring any relief when I have a flare up like this.
Just took my first twice-a-week 50,000 IU of vitamin D pill. [/quote]
Oh, man, I sure hope that gets better. Ugh, that sucks. I will ask the man about the Pharma grade Vit D. Thanks, dude.
Ultrasound kit: It might provide some relief. But thinking that you can reach for a quick fix is unrealistic. You need to address nutrients and body work. Get someone working on your neck, upper back, scapulae, shoulders, upper and lower arms. You probably need to pay out of pocket for a massage therapist.
You need to find someone who does deep tissue work and sports medicine experience would be a plus. It will be painful. Take naproxin a few hours before. You need lots of fluids and anti-oxidants to deal with the recovery of deep tissue work. High dose vitamin C would be one of the things that you would need to increase.
Naproxin is very good at longer term relief. It and other anti-inflamitories can help break the cycle.
And look at your diet. It might be a reason for all of this.
I have had many elbow issues over the years. I would highly recommend getting at lest some basic neoprene elbow sleeves to wear during all your training. Also, instead of cutting out direct bicep work entirely, move it to some light, high rep stuff, I mean embarrasingly light for 20-50 reps for a couple of sets a week.
I used to have unbearable elbow pain that all but stopped me from doing bicep work and anything that needed a “white knuckle” type grip if you get my drift. I was also suffering from joint pain in the elbows as well. My doctor prescribed me 100mg’s/week of Deca Durabolin, and within three weeks or so, my joint and tendon pain was all but gone. The problem here is if you get your PA to prescribe you Deca for joint pain, unless you are on TRT, (which I am) you’re asking for trouble. Deca doesn’t aromatize into estrogen and it will cause complete HPTA shutdown which means your body stops producing it’s natural Testosterone. I read your post and didn’t see you were on TRT so Deca is probably out of the question.
I do have an idea though; you might try taking Trans-Resveratrol for joint pain and the anti oxidant qualities it has.
[quote]KSman wrote:
Ultrasound kit: It might provide some relief. But thinking that you can reach for a quick fix is unrealistic. You need to address nutrients and body work. Get someone working on your neck, upper back, scapulae, shoulders, upper and lower arms. You probably need to pay out of pocket for a massage therapist.
You need to find someone who does deep tissue work and sports medicine experience would be a plus. It will be painful. Take naproxin a few hours before. You need lots of fluids and anti-oxidants to deal with the recovery of deep tissue work. High dose vitamin C would be one of the things that you would need to increase.
Naproxin is very good at longer term relief. It and other anti-inflamitories can help break the cycle.
[/quote]
Roger. I don’t really have the funds to spend on a message therapist, so I am going to use that book on trigger points to aid me in self-massage. Got the Naproxen. They actually graduated me to Celebrrex.
[quote]PeteS wrote:
I have had many elbow issues over the years. I would highly recommend getting at lest some basic neoprene elbow sleeves to wear during all your training. Also, instead of cutting out direct bicep work entirely, move it to some light, high rep stuff, I mean embarrasingly light for 20-50 reps for a couple of sets a week. [/quote]
Thanks, man. I have decided not to do any curling movements on the days that I train bjj. I did that today and feel pretty well. I think I am getting better with all of the stretching I am doing. And yes! I have the neoprene sleeves and they do help a lot. I sit in the sauna for five minutes to warm up my joints before I lift. It feels so much better when I use the sauna.
[quote]KNB wrote:
I used to have unbearable elbow pain that all but stopped me from doing bicep work and anything that needed a “white knuckle” type grip if you get my drift. I was also suffering from joint pain in the elbows as well. My doctor prescribed me 100mg’s/week of Deca Durabolin, and within three weeks or so, my joint and tendon pain was all but gone. The problem here is if you get your PA to prescribe you Deca for joint pain, unless you are on TRT, (which I am) you’re asking for trouble. Deca doesn’t aromatize into estrogen and it will cause complete HPTA shutdown which means your body stops producing it’s natural Testosterone. I read your post and didn’t see you were on TRT so Deca is probably out of the question.
I do have an idea though; you might try taking Trans-Resveratrol for joint pain and the anti oxidant qualities it has.
[/quote]
Dude, that is great gouge. I will simply steer clear of the deca, and not even ask my doctor about it. Too risky in the Marine Corps.
I will definitely explore the Trans-Rez-V. Thanks!
From what I’ve read here, steroids can shut down your natural T production if taken in sufficient doses – period. However, there are ways of managing that and ameliorating the effects, as well as returning yourself to normal levels after. Check out the steroid forums for more information. Warning: There’s a fucking ton of information there, and it’s a bitch to sift through.
Point is, if you go in armed with that info, and your Doc isn’t a closed-minded SOB (as many unfortunately are), then you’re in luck. The ideal situation is to do a legal, medically supervised course with proper post-cycle therapy. That’s not necessarily the ideal solution, though.
I think you’re doing yourself a disservice by looking for a magic bullet, here. Prior posters have hit the nail on the head: there’s several other factors to be looked at. If you don’t check these elements of your training and nutrition, and correct possible problems there, then the issue you’re having will simply reoccur even if cortisone, steroids, or other quick fixes work.
A good massage therapist is ideal. The Trigger Point Therapy workbook is fantastic, however, and will get you a long way toward where you want to go. Check with your military Doc. I’m surprised that the military doesn’t have some massage therapists on the medical support staff for rehabbing injuries. Deal with the knots in your muscles, and you’ve taken a good first step. Another poster mentioned the possible strain on your joints and muscles from your martial training – this is also something to consider. Sometimes a stretched tendon needs time to tighten back up. While I know how much of a pain in the ass it can be to back off of training you love doing, sometimes it’s necessary to do that in the short term so that you can keep doing what you love until you’re old and grey. That hammer grip exercise also looks like it’d be great for helping to address issues in forearm musculature, which you may well have. Overuse injuries are often (but not always) just a sign that the balancing muscles in the body are underused – like a guy who benches too much, but never works his back.
Also, there was this T-Nation article just the other day, dealing with Omega 3’s, 6’s, inflammation, and a few other subjects you may find interesting.
Edited to add: Good luck, man! We’ve all been there before, and us over-35ers have to stick together. No sense in letting life grind us down before we’re ready for the pine box. 