I am an active duty Marine in his 30s. I figured this was the best forum to ask for help. I have had a very dull, persistent pain on the inside of both of my elbows for two years now; the range is from the upper forearm to mid-bicep. I also have a sharp pain on the outside of each elbow, right between the two top bones in the elbow. I have had X-Rays and MRIs and the diagnosis was tendonosis (pretty bad tendonitis, from what I am told by the four doctors that I have seen en route to the ortho surgeon). I have been on Celebrex for over a year, ice two times a day, use Icy Hot throughout the day, sometimes need sleep aids because the pain is such a nuisance (not unbearable). The ortho offered me surgery, but given my duties it is not my best course of action. He talked me out of cortisone injections but I really warming up to it (even though there are several online forums that say to stay away from it, despite everyone I know who has had them reporting positive results). I also am looking into a self-ultrasound kit to use at home (see link at bottom, anyone know of a better one?).
I am an active jiu jitsu player who trains three times a week, lifts three times a week, does a 20 minute AM Yoga each morning of the week at home, and throws in some muay thai for fun. I do not PT much with a unit right now, so I have the flexibility of personalizing my PT. It has gotten to the point that I am getting very concerned that I have done irreversible damage to my arms. I was hoping to know if anyone has beaten this and how? Foam-rolling, ultrasound, cortisone injections, RICE-HA (Rest, Ice, Compress, Elevate, Heat, Anti-Inflammatories). Please help as sometimes I get really worried that my days of lifting and jiu jitsu are coming to a close. I am 72 inches and 203 pounds, around 14 % bodyfat.
Semper fi,
Michael http://shop.aidmytendon.com/product_info.php?products_id=179&osCsid=iiv1vk4apoqvrrk9dstao22gf3
I’d suspect grip positioning/technique on various movements. Have you tried a hook grip on squats? pinky under the bar? Narrower grip on bench? neutral grip pullups? I get real bad forearm and elbow pain when my grip’s too wide, because of the shear force on my forearms.
[quote]mcl wrote:
I’d suspect grip positioning/technique on various movements. Have you tried a hook grip on squats? pinky under the bar? Narrower grip on bench? neutral grip pullups? I get real bad forearm and elbow pain when my grip’s too wide, because of the shear force on my forearms.[/quote]
I have. And I have eliminated bicep curls and am really concentrating on keeping straight arms during deads and so forth. I really think it mainly stems from going from a boot ass white belt to a blue belt in 18 months. Not fast by any means, but I trained hard and often, and now think getting subbed for all those months is coming back to haunt me. Now I am getting to the point where I only get arm-barred maybe a few times a month, by a higher belt. I really want to know about cortisone injections. Yes or no? I am counting on you T-Nation, you guys are my family.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I play rugby as well. Just a minor detail.
I had elbow tendonitis last year caused by aggressively adding weight to the belt on pull-ups and chin-ups. I wasn’t smart enough to back off when my elbows started to get tender. It took 8 months of no chins and little bicep work (rowing movements were OK) before the pain went away but I still need to be careful.
Your protocol of RICE, anti-inflammatories etc. seems reasonable. But, look carefully at any activities that could put strain on the tendons and get in the way of healing. Rugby tackles and martial arts grappling would seem to be a potential problem.
If you don’t want surgery or cortisone then I think you need to find a way to back off for a few months and be selective with your activities. Tendonitis is a bitch.
I had tendinitis bad in my wrists and forearms and it disappeared like magic after getting a cortisone shot in my ass for poison ivy. It did not return, but I also cut out direct bi work and I am careful about where and how I grip the bar on both pulling and pushing exercises. I also drink fish oil like water and take glucosamine and curcumin.
Unfortunately, I now have a constant dull (but different) pain on the inside of my elbows that I attribute to changes in the way I squat. I am not sure what to do about this, as the changes have really helped my squat. Fuck, I hate tendinitis. She’s a devious and persistent bitch.
In sum, I don’t see why you wouldn’t try a cortisone shot in conjunction with taking other precautions.
I have it in both arms.
College wrestling+judo + some repetitive work stuff = bad tendonitis.
I took a YEAR off, and it clears up allot but not all of it.
what helps me is Fish oil in big dosages, MSM, and curricumin500.
The latter two are anti inflammatory.
Soft tissue work has helped , as has a few treatments of ultrasound
I have to monitor my pullups pressing etc.
most of the time it it manageable,but some days its not.
I had elbow tendonitis last year caused by aggressively adding weight to the belt on pull-ups and chin-ups. I wasn’t smart enough to back off when my elbows started to get tender. It took 8 months of no chins and little bicep work (rowing movements were OK) before the pain went away but I still need to be careful.
Your protocol of RICE, anti-inflammatories etc. seems reasonable. But, look carefully at any activities that could put strain on the tendons and get in the way of healing. Rugby tackles and martial arts grappling would seem to be a potential problem.
If you don’t want surgery or cortisone then I think you need to find a way to back off for a few months and be selective with your activities. Tendonitis is a bitch.[/quote]
I just want to be sure I am doing the right thing. I want to exhaust all non-intrusive avenues before I take the ‘plunge.’ I think I will take your advice and eliminate direct bi-work like curls and see how I really respond over a months period. Thanks, man, I really appreciate it.
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
I had tendinitis bad in my wrists and forearms and it disappeared like magic after getting a cortisone shot in my ass for poison ivy. It did not return, but I also cut out direct bi work and I am careful about where and how I grip the bar on both pulling and pushing exercises. I also drink fish oil like water and take glucosamine and curcumin.
Unfortunately, I now have a constant dull (but different) pain on the inside of my elbows that I attribute to changes in the way I squat. I am not sure what to do about this, as the changes have really helped my squat. Fuck, I hate tendinitis. She’s a devious and persistent bitch.
In sum, I don’t see why you wouldn’t try a cortisone shot in conjunction with taking other precautions. [/quote]
Dude, that is exactly the kind of feedback I am looking for. Thank you! Okay, hmmm, well, there are several message boards across the Internet that have people crying about how cortisone screwed them up for life. But I also have to take the approach that you can find just about anything on Google these days. If you want to find a group who cries whenever they get a golden shower, Google is the place. I guess I could just type in ‘piss painters’ and I could get someone to come over and cover me with a nice sheen o’ piss.
[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
I have it in both arms.
College wrestling+judo + some repetitive work stuff = bad tendonitis.
I took a YEAR off, and it clears up allot but not all of it.
what helps me is Fish oil in big dosages, MSM, and curricumin500.
The latter two are anti inflammatory.
Soft tissue work has helped , as has a few treatments of ultrasound
I have to monitor my pullups pressing etc.
most of the time it it manageable,but some days its not.
[/quote]
kmcnyc, did you get a chance to look at that website I attached that had the ultrasound kit? What do you think? Thanks so much for responding, it means a lot to me.
Michael, I had cortisone shots in both elbows for lateral epiconditylitis (tennis elbow), and it didn’t do anything for me. I realized that at the time I had got to 260 at 5’11 1/2 and was just finishing a lot of 5x5 work for basically every strength movement. I realized that my form had degraded and I was jerking and throwing the weights instead of keeping tension on the muscles. take a pull up or deadlift for example, in the starting position you should ideally be under tension when you start, not slack/loose. that initial taking up of the slack was being absorbed by my elbows/tendons.
I got active release techniques done by a good chiro, and used a lot of neutral grip lifts when available. Went lighter on weights and kept tension, cut back on volume too. Took about a year. This was about 2004. Then this spring it started acting up again, mainly from higher volume and the fact that I got stronger and my working weights are higher now.
Take 2 tennis balls, use athletic tape and tape them together. Then line up standing next to a wall, and place the tennis balls between your forearm/elbow and the wall. then lean into the wall, applying pressure to the knots in your forearms. roll it up and down your forearm/elbow area and when it really hurts, then you really need to leverage your weight into the damn knot for a good long while until the tension dissipates. Some folks do this with one tennis ball or even a golf ball and just hold it over the knot, but I have found that using my own bodyweight as leverage works better.
I also did kung fu for a while, but never the amount of grabbing in Judo. sounds like just overuse and the same problem I had with your joints/tendons absorbing the initial force of your grabs especially since it is in both laterally and medially on your elbows. congrats on advancing so fast.
Here is what has helped me with my medial elbow pain, caused by too much power cleaning 18 months ago. This is a chronic problem, not an acute injury, so stop the ice. It will only make it hurt more. Heat helps me a lot. I set a hot water bottle on my lap and rest my elbow upon it when I get a flare-up. I can read and type while doing this.
Anti-inflammatories haven’t helped so I don’t use them. An ACE wrap helps in the gym, I think by keeping the elbow warm. Pronated grip pull-ups make it worse but I can tolerate supinated grip chin-ups, but not to many and not too often. Power cleans are out. Oddly enough deadlifts (with a supinated grip on the affected side) are pain free.
My ortho friend said that this is a chronic degenerative condition that might take years to resolve, if it ever does. Surgery can help many but the down time is six months so I am just learning to work around it and hope it gets better. It is, but slowly. It is easy to re-injure I have found.
[quote]b12sblue2002 wrote:
Michael, I had cortisone shots in both elbows for lateral epiconditylitis (tennis elbow), and it didn’t do anything for me. I realized that at the time I had got to 260 at 5’11 1/2 and was just finishing a lot of 5x5 work for basically every strength movement. I realized that my form had degraded and I was jerking and throwing the weights instead of keeping tension on the muscles. take a pull up or deadlift for example, in the starting position you should ideally be under tension when you start, not slack/loose. that initial taking up of the slack was being absorbed by my elbows/tendons.
I got active release techniques done by a good chiro, and used a lot of neutral grip lifts when available. Went lighter on weights and kept tension, cut back on volume too. Took about a year. This was about 2004. Then this spring it started acting up again, mainly from higher volume and the fact that I got stronger and my working weights are higher now.
Take 2 tennis balls, use athletic tape and tape them together. Then line up standing next to a wall, and place the tennis balls between your forearm/elbow and the wall. then lean into the wall, applying pressure to the knots in your forearms. roll it up and down your forearm/elbow area and when it really hurts, then you really need to leverage your weight into the damn knot for a good long while until the tension dissipates. Some folks do this with one tennis ball or even a golf ball and just hold it over the knot, but I have found that using my own bodyweight as leverage works better.
I also did kung fu for a while, but never the amount of grabbing in Judo. sounds like just overuse and the same problem I had with your joints/tendons absorbing the initial force of your grabs especially since it is in both laterally and medially on your elbows. congrats on advancing so fast.
Good luck and semper fi from a Navy guy :)[/quote]
[quote]b12sblue2002 wrote:
Michael, I had cortisone shots in both elbows for lateral epiconditylitis (tennis elbow), and it didn’t do anything for me. I realized that at the time I had got to 260 at 5’11 1/2 and was just finishing a lot of 5x5 work for basically every strength movement. I realized that my form had degraded and I was jerking and throwing the weights instead of keeping tension on the muscles. take a pull up or deadlift for example, in the starting position you should ideally be under tension when you start, not slack/loose. that initial taking up of the slack was being absorbed by my elbows/tendons.
I got active release techniques done by a good chiro, and used a lot of neutral grip lifts when available. Went lighter on weights and kept tension, cut back on volume too. Took about a year. This was about 2004. Then this spring it started acting up again, mainly from higher volume and the fact that I got stronger and my working weights are higher now.
Take 2 tennis balls, use athletic tape and tape them together. Then line up standing next to a wall, and place the tennis balls between your forearm/elbow and the wall. then lean into the wall, applying pressure to the knots in your forearms. roll it up and down your forearm/elbow area and when it really hurts, then you really need to leverage your weight into the damn knot for a good long while until the tension dissipates. Some folks do this with one tennis ball or even a golf ball and just hold it over the knot, but I have found that using my own bodyweight as leverage works better.
I also did kung fu for a while, but never the amount of grabbing in Judo. sounds like just overuse and the same problem I had with your joints/tendons absorbing the initial force of your grabs especially since it is in both laterally and medially on your elbows. congrats on advancing so fast.
Good luck and semper fi from a Navy guy :)[/quote]
Errrr!!! The Marine Corps Birthday is coming up soon…234 years young!! (Then why do I feel so old?)
It is beginning to sound hit and miss with the cortisone. I think I am going to go to Borders tonight and buy the book on trigger points, especially after having someone give it a second thumbs up.
I have been doing this for three days combined with another very awkward stretch that my ortho showed me, and to be honest, after bjj last night, I am feeling much better than I usually do. Check this out:
[quote]Turtello wrote:
Here is what has helped me with my medial elbow pain, caused by too much power cleaning 18 months ago. This is a chronic problem, not an acute injury, so stop the ice. It will only make it hurt more. Heat helps me a lot. I set a hot water bottle on my lap and rest my elbow upon it when I get a flare-up. I can read and type while doing this.
Anti-inflammatories haven’t helped so I don’t use them. An ACE wrap helps in the gym, I think by keeping the elbow warm. Pronated grip pull-ups make it worse but I can tolerate supinated grip chin-ups, but not to many and not too often. Power cleans are out. Oddly enough deadlifts (with a supinated grip on the affected side) are pain free.
My ortho friend said that this is a chronic degenerative condition that might take years to resolve, if it ever does. Surgery can help many but the down time is six months so I am just learning to work around it and hope it gets better. It is, but slowly. It is easy to re-injure I have found. [/quote]
Dude, I am persistent with the ice, but not the heat. I am totally going to switch it up. I will be doing heat tonight. I am in heat. Whoa, sorry.
[quote]Deorum wrote:
Michael C wrote:
My wife and I: Just thought I would throw this in for good measure.
haha good measure alright.[/quote]
Thanks, mate. And welcome to T-Nation. I am not kidding when I say this, but Testosterone Nation changed my life. I will forever be here and will support Biotest till I take one in the running lights, at which time I will bequeath to them all 37 cents left in my bank account (sorry, sweetie).
I was just at my doc this morning and we were discussing my chronic shoulder pain and he told me of a treatment that I had never heard of called Prolotherapy injections and gave me an article in Practical Pain Management discussing a study of prolotherapy for elbow pain. 63% of study participants received a greater than 75% pain relief. Here is the website for the mag. http://www.ppmjournal.com/ It is in the October 2009 issue so it is not on the website yet. It may be worth looking into. good luck.
[quote]shawnhavoc wrote:
I was just at my doc this morning and we were discussing my chronic shoulder pain and he told me of a treatment that I had never heard of called Prolotherapy injections and gave me an article in Practical Pain Management discussing a study of prolotherapy for elbow pain. 63% of study participants received a greater than 75% pain relief. Here is the website for the mag. http://www.ppmjournal.com/ It is in the October 2009 issue so it is not on the website yet. It may be worth looking into. good luck.[/quote]
Oh hells yeah, mate. I saw this on Youtube and wasn’t sure, and there was one vid of Hines Ward and I think it was Prolotherapy that he got before the Super Bowl. Only problem is that I don’t think the doctors in the military are that saavy. I am seriously beginning to think about going out into town for this problem.
