[quote]samsmarts wrote:
FCFighter wrote:
Not all Muslims are terrorists, but almost all terrorists are Muslims.
Hahahaha.
That was a great one. I guess all the terrorism in Ireland, in the ex USSR regions, phillipines, korea, etc is done by muslims as well.
[/quote]
Uh, yeh. Apparently you have a bad case of ADD and must have skipped over the part where I said “almost all.” And I believe the terrorist activity you speak of when you mention the Phillipines was committed by Muslims.
[Imature retaliation]:No. You get YOUR head out of YOUR ass. And my dad can beat up your dad. Na Na Na Na Boo Boo.
No seriously. Grow the fuck up.
It may not be a religious war on our end. Tell that to those that are waging a “Jihad” against the “infidels”. Are you so naive to believe that religion has nothing to do with any of this?
I’ll bet you’re one of those liberals that think we should just back off and everything will just get all better. Wrong.
–This is a revealing article from a few months ago…
This is
LONDON
20/04/04 - London news section
Terror on the dole
By David Cohen, Evening Standard
Four young British Muslims in their twenties - a social worker, an IT specialist, a security guard and a financial adviser - occupy a table at a fast-food chicken restaurant in Luton. Perched on their plastic chairs, wolfing down their dinner, they seem just ordinary young men. Yet out of their mouths pour heated words of revolution.
“As far as I’m concerned, when they bomb London, the bigger the better,” says Abdul Haq, the social worker. “I know it’s going to happen because Sheikh bin Laden said so. Like Bali, like Turkey, like Madrid - I pray for it, I look forward to the day.”
“Pass the brown sauce, brother,” says Abu Malaahim, the IT specialist, devouring his chicken and chips.
“I agree with you, brother,” says Abu Yusuf, the earnest-looking financial adviser sitting opposite. “I would like to see the Mujahideen coming into London and killing thousands, whether with nuclear weapons or germ warfare. And if they need a safehouse, they can stay in mine - and if they need some fertiliser [for a bomb], I’ll tell them where to get it.”
His friend, Abu Musa, the security guard, smiles radiantly. “It will be a day of joy for me,” he adds, speaking with a slight lisp.
As they talk, a man with a bushy beard, dressed in a jacket emblazoned with the word “Jihad”, stands and watches over them, handing around cups of steaming hot coffee. His real name is Ishtiaq Alamgir, but he goes by his adopted name, Sayful Islam, meaning “Sword of Islam”. He is the 24-year-old leader of the Luton branch of al-Muhajiroun, an extremist Muslim group with about 800 members countrywide, who regard Osama bin Laden as their hero.
Until recently, nobody took the fanatical beliefs of al-Muhajiroun too seriously, believing that a British-based group so brazenly “out there” could not be involved in something as “underground” as terrorism. The group is led by the exiled Saudi, Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammad, from his base in north London. Yesterday, in a magazine article, Bakri warned that several radical groups are poised to strike in London.
For all its inflammatory rhetoric, al-Muhajiroun has never been linked to actual violence. Yet, with the discovery last month of half-a-tonne of ammonium nitrate fertiliser - the same explosive ingredient used in the Bali and Turkey terror attacks - and with the arrest of eight young British Muslims in London and the South-East, including six in Luton, extremist groups such as al-Muhajiroun are under the spotlight like never before.
Detectives fear that the “enemy within”, the homegrown extremists leading apparently normal lives in suburbia, now pose the greatest threat to security in Britain. Sayful and his friends fit this “homegrown” profile: three were born here, two came as young children from Pakistan; all were educated in local Luton schools; and they grew up in families of full employment - one of their fathers is a retired local businessman, two are engineers, and two worked in the local Vauxhall car plant.
The question is: how worried should we be? Is al-Muhajiroun nothing more than a repository for disaffected Muslim youths who have adopted an extreme interpretation of Islam - perhaps to cock a snook at the white establishment - but who are essentially posturing? Or does the group also perform a more sinister function, sucking in alienated young men and brainwashing the more impressionable into becoming future suicide bombers?
Although none of the arrested Muslims - aged 17 to 32 - appear to be current al-Muhajiroun members, rumours have circulated of informal links to the group. Moreover, parents of the arrested men have spoken anxiously of the “radicalising influence” of al-Muhajiroun militants who " corrupt" their children at mosques.
Nowhere has this public confrontation between radicals and moderates been more apparent than in Luton, which has the highest density of Muslims in the South-East - 28,000 out of a total population of 140,000 - and has long been regarded as a hotbed of extremism.
Sayful Islam, for one, is particularly proud of his contribution to Luton’s hardline reputation. His exploits include covering the town with " Magnificent 19" posters glorifying the 11 September suicide bombers. “When I joined al-Muhajiroun four years ago, there were five local members,” he says. “Now there are more than 50 and hundreds more support us.”
The strange thing is that four years ago, Sayful Islam was a jeans-clad student completing his degree in business economics at Middlesex University in Hendon, north London.
The son of a British Rail engineer who came to this country from Pakistan, Sayful grew up in a moderate, middle-class Muslim family in Luton. At the local Denbigh High School, he is remembered as one of the smartest kids, and was selected to attend a science masterclass at Cambridge University. He would go on to marry, have two children and find work as an accountant for the Inland Revenue in Luton. He was thoroughly uninterested in politics.
THEN he met Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammad at a local event. Within two years, he had swapped his decently paid job as an accountant for an unpaid one as a political agitator. What turned him into an extremist? And how far is he prepared to go to achieve his aims?
Prior to seeing the group at the fastfood restaurant, Sayful meets me at his semi-detached rented home in Bury Park, Luton’s Muslim neighbourhood. He no longer works, even though he is able-bodied, he admits, preferring instead to claim housing benefit and jobseeker’s allowance. He smiles sheepishly and says the irony is not lost on him that the British state is supporting him financially, even as he plots to “overthrow it”.
“I made a decision that I wanted to follow what Islam really said,” Sayful begins, sitting on his sofa in his thowb (a traditional robe) and bare feet. "I went to listen to all the local imams, but I found their portrayal of Islam was too secularised. When I heard Sheikh Omar [the leader] of al-Muhajiroun speak, it was pure Islam, with no compromise. I found that appealing.
“At the same time,” continues Sayful, “wars were happening in Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Afghanistan. People were being oppressed simply because they were Muslim. Although I had never experienced racism in the UK, it opened the eyes of a lot of Muslims, including mine.”
But it was the events of 11 September that crystallised Sayful’s worldview. “When I watched those planes go into the Twin Towers, I felt elated,” he says. “That magnificent action split the world into two camps: you were either with Islam and al Qaeda, or with the enemy. I decided to quit my job and commit myself full-time to al-Muhajiroun.” Now he does not consider himself British. “I am a Muslim living in Britain, and I give my allegiance only to Allah.”
According to Sayful, the aim of al-Muhajiroun (“the immigrants”) is nothing less than Khilafah - “the worldwide domination of Islam”. The way to achieve this, he says, is by Jihad, led by Bin Laden. “I support him 100 per cent.”
Does that support extend to violent acts of terrorism in the UK?
“Yes,” he replies, unequivocally. "When a bomb attack happens here, I won’t be against it, even if it kills my own children. Islam is clear: Muslims living in lands that are occupied have the right to attack their invaders.
“Britain became a legitimate target when it sent troops to Iraq. But it is against Islam for me to engage personally in acts of terrorism in the UK because I live here. According to Islam, I have a covenant of security with the UK, as long as they allow us Muslims to live here in peace.”
HE USES the phrase “covenant of security” constantly. He attempts to explain. “If we want to engage in terrorism, we would have to leave the country,” he says. “It is against Islam to do otherwise.” Such a course of action, he says, he is not prepared to undertake. This is why, Sayful claims, it is consistent, and not cowardly, for him to espouse the rhetoric of terrorism, the “martyrdom-operations”, while simultaneouslylimiting himself to nonviolentactions such as leafletting outside Luton town hall.
He denies any link between al-Muhajiroun and the Muslims arrested in the recent police raids. But, as I later discover at the fastfood restaurant, not everyone attaching themselves, however loosely, to al-Muhajiroun draws the same line. Two members of the group - Abu Yusuf, the financial adviser, and Abu Musa, the security guard - scorn al-Muhajiroun as “too moderate”.
“I am freelance,” says Abu Yusuf, fixing me with his piercing brown eyes. What does that mean? I ask.
“The difference between us and those two,” interjects Abu Malaahim, pointing to Musa and Yusuf, “is that us lot do a verbal thing, [but] those brothers actually want to do a physical thing.”
Referring to the latest truce offered by Bin Laden, and Britain’s scathing rejection of it, Abu Malaahim adds: “He tried to make a peace deal. When terrorism happens, you will only have yourselves to blame.”
How far are you prepared to go? I ask.
“You want to know how far I will go,” says Abu Musa, his high-pitched lisp rising an octave. “When Allah said in the Koran ‘kill and be killed’, that’s what I want. I want a martyr operation, where I kill my enemy.”
Are you saying, I probe, that you are looking to kill people yourself ? “Yes,” Abu Musa says, “to kill and to be killed.” He emphasises each word.
What’s stopped you doing it? “As you know from watching the news,” intones Abu Yusuf, “there are brothers who do leave the country and do it.” He is referring to the four Muslims from Luton who died fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan, and the two British Muslims, said to have had ties to al-Muhajiroun, who last April left to become suicide bombers in Israel. “In-shallah [ Godwilling], there will be a time to go.”
It is hard to know whether Musa and Yusuf are deadly serious or just pumped full of misguided, youthful bravado. Though I see coldness - even ruthlessness - in their eyes, I sense no malice. Both young men agree, perhaps foolishly, to be quoted using their real names, though they decline photographs - thus illustrating their uncertainty of which way to jump.
Muhammad Sulaiman, president of the Islamic Cultural Society, the largest of the 14 mosques in Luton, dismisses al-Muhajiroun as “verbal diarrhoea”.
“They are an extreme Right-wing group - the Muslim version of the BNP,” he says disdainfully. “They think Muslims should dominate, just like the BNP thinks whites should dominate. They use Islam as a vehicle to promote their distorted beliefs, particularly to unemployed young bloods who are vulnerable.”
ALTHOUGH unemployment in Luton is just six per cent, the rate among Muslim youths is estimated at 25 per cent. “They are no more representative of our Muslim community than the BNP are of the white community.”
Sulaiman insists that Sayful Islam and his crew are not welcome at the mosque. He cannot prevent them praying there, but he will never give them a platform. “I’ve told Sayful to bugger off and ejected him many times,” he says brusquely. “Even Sayful’s father, who I know well, thinks his son has been brainwashed.”
But Sayful and his friends laugh at the idea that they are local pariahs. “The mosques say one thing to the public, and something else to us. Let’s just say that the face you see and the face we see are two different faces,” says Abdul Haq. “Believe me,” adds Musa, “behind closed doors, there are no moderate Muslims.”
They also mock the idea that they are attracted to al-Muhajiroun because they have suffered alienation from white society. “Do we look like scum?” they ask. “Do we look illiterate?”
As they call for the bill, Abu Malaahim flicks open his 3G mobile phone and, with a satisfied grin, displays the image, downloaded from the internet, of an American Humvee burning in Iraq.
Abu Yusuf says: “That’s nothing. I downloaded the picture of the four burnt Americans hanging from the bridge.” It’s oneupmanship, al-Muhajiroun style.
Sayful, the only married one in the group, prepares to go home to his wife and children. Before he departs, he says he has a message to deliver.
"I want to warn that the police raids - if repeated - could create a bad situation.
"Islam is not like Christianity, where they turn the other cheek. If they raid our homes, it could lead to the covenant of security being broken.
“Islam allows us to retaliate. That would include” - he tugs his “Jihad” coat tight against the night air - “by violent means.”
Uh, yeh. Apparently you have a bad case of ADD and must have skipped over the part where I said “almost all.” And I believe the terrorist activity you speak of when you mention the Phillipines was committed by Muslims.
[/quote]
There have been many publications(one posted in this very thread) that have stated that the gross number of terrorisms in Latin America alone is larger than those by muslims. And then there are the ex-USSR regions, ireland etc. Point being your assumption is flawed. Almost every terrorist isnt a muslim.
Religion has something to do with everything, but your sorry ass take on the issue is only feuling the religious friction. It is opinions like your that the extremist use to brain wash the confused morons with. The average person from Iran must think all Americans are racist morons who are out to get them, convincing a chunk of these people to wage Jihad against USA wont be hard for those who actually make a living off this(why hasnt Bin Lasen suicide bombed anyone yet?).
I respect your right to have an opinion, but i dont respect the opinion you have. You call me the type of liberal that thinks all would be better if it went unresolved? If that were the case you must have been the extremist who was raping and murdering innocent during the cursades.
I am far from a liberal who thinks all should be left as it is. I believe there is a diplomatic way of working around this mess, by asking(via trade restrictions, etc) the leaders of these nations to crack down and once and for all rid their nations of these terrorist trainning camps if there are any.
You can suggest all you want that this method is soft and what not, but what has invading Afghanistan and Iraq done? Make USA look worse internationally? Bushs friends cash in on billions worth of contracts for iraqs rebuilding? Ended terrorism(yeah right)?
So whats next attack Iran? Move into Syria? Pakistan anyone? Beat up the muslims living in our neighbourhoods? Wipe every damn muslim off the face of this planet?
[quote]bantamlb5 wrote:
simple as this…The middle east is the only region in the world wehre if anyone just decided to flatten that sand pit and make it a parking lot, there would be a whole fuck load less problems in the world, probobly cut to about 50%.
Now, on the other had, i do know some islamic and muslim people who are nice and i like them, so that is a sad statement to have to make, but if we are talking objectively and not personally at all, my first statement is very true and its a shame…idiots have been fighting over a piece of sand for 1000 years, no need at all. It is also very unfortuante that we as americans or brits are tought to be fairly open minded and not be totally discrimitory and hate people who we dont even know, this is what we are “taught”, i dont mean that is what is learned.
But on the other hand, a lot of these middle eastern kids are taught to hate americans like we are acutally devil incarnates and are worse than the worst arab on the whole. So these little inocent children are taught and drilled into thier heads to absolutly hate us with the utmost disgust which is a huge problem. I dont know, thats just my 2 cents.[/quote]
Maybe they aren’t taught that so much as see their mothers, fathers, husbands, wives etc. killed by American bombs. I’d conclude Americans were devils incarnate if I saw the ‘collateral damage’ they caused.
"democrat-anoski wrote:
woooo! Thank God for that Iraq war! It is really securing the peace for us, I tell you! Thank God our glorious leader has told us that we are winning that war, because I don’t know what the hell we would do if Saddam was in power. If Saddam was in power, I bet it would have been fifty explosions in London, four in New York, and one in Uzbekistan, because God knows he was funding them. Hell, I bet that it would have been dirty bombs, just because that bastard would love to have given it to Al-Queda. Good God, thank Christ for that Iraq war, or else I wouldn’t feel so incredibly safe.
Man, don’t you guys feel safer now? Zig Heil, Fuhrer Bush!!
When you give up Liberty for safety, you get neither. Today proved it. Dont think it couldnt happen in New York, Patriot Act and all."
I just wanted to say thanks for your input. I enjoy thinking about you during johnkerry’s concession speech. It makes me smile every time.
Did you cry? Were you thinking about moving to Canada? Did you tell people “at least it was “close”?”
How did you feel when the Republicans picked up seats in the Senate and the House? Did you blame someone else? Halliburton? George H.W. Bush?
By the way, I don’t recall seeing a post from you YESTERDAY stating how long it has been since the principal homelands have been attacked. You weren’t giving any credit. Today, you sure are blaming a lot of people.
In summary, I’m glad you are uncomfortable. Have a pleasant Second Term.
[quote]JeffR wrote:
"democrat-anoski wrote:
woooo! Thank God for that Iraq war! It is really securing the peace for us, I tell you! Thank God our glorious leader has told us that we are winning that war, because I don’t know what the hell we would do if Saddam was in power. If Saddam was in power, I bet it would have been fifty explosions in London, four in New York, and one in Uzbekistan, because God knows he was funding them. Hell, I bet that it would have been dirty bombs, just because that bastard would love to have given it to Al-Queda. Good God, thank Christ for that Iraq war, or else I wouldn’t feel so incredibly safe.
Man, don’t you guys feel safer now? Zig Heil, Fuhrer Bush!!
When you give up Liberty for safety, you get neither. Today proved it. Dont think it couldnt happen in New York, Patriot Act and all."
I just wanted to say thanks for your input. I enjoy thinking about you during johnkerry’s concession speech. It makes me smile every time.
Did you cry? Were you thinking about moving to Canada? Did you tell people “at least it was “close”?”
How did you feel when the Republicans picked up seats in the Senate and the House? Did you blame someone else? Halliburton? George H.W. Bush?
By the way, I don’t recall seeing a post from you YESTERDAY stating how long it has been since the principal homelands have been attacked. You weren’t giving any credit. Today, you sure are blaming a lot of people.
In summary, I’m glad you are uncomfortable. Have a pleasant Second Term.
God Bless the English!!!
JeffR
[/quote]
What the hell are you talking about JeffR? You make little sense at best. And the English don’t need to be blessed. We, like the rest of the world need America to stop mythologising itself and considering itself the ‘city on the hill’ and the ‘world’s leader’. We need Blair to listen to the people when 80% say don’t go to war. We need people to get over this anarchistic, Hobbesian view of the world and in short to stop this abstract ‘war on terror’ which serves nothing but money-making. ‘Blessing’ and God have nothing to with it.
Talking to the little man in the sky in ineffectual when compared to avoiding invading and subverting peoples countries simply to further your own society’s obscene consumption all under the hypocritical and wholly inacurate banner of ‘spreading democracy’.
“What the hell are you talking about JeffR? You make little sense at best. And the English don’t need to be blessed. We, like the rest of the world need America to stop mythologising itself and considering itself the ‘city on the hill’ and the ‘world’s leader’.”
We are the city on the hill and the world’s leader. However, we don’t forget our friends. Especially, when they are in need.
“We need Blair to listen to the people when 80% say don’t go to war.”
Why did you re-elect him? Seems like your numbers are “suspiciously round.”
“We need people to get over this anarchistic, Hobbesian view of the world”
Nice little phrase. Unfortunately, it’s nonsense. We obviously are striving AGAINST anarchy. We’ve been quite clear: Democracy is the goal.
“and in short to stop this abstract ‘war on terror’ which serves nothing but money-making.”
So ignorant and wrong. It’s unfortunate you can’t give credit to the sacrifices made in this war.
“‘Blessing’ and God have nothing to with it.”
Well, damn you then!!!
“Talking to the little man in the sky in ineffectual when compared to avoiding invading and subverting peoples countries simply to further your own society’s obscene consumption all under the hypocritical and wholly inacurate banner of ‘spreading democracy’.”
Well, well, well. I thought we were spreading “anarchy?” You are a confused little fellow.
Thanks for being such a little bitch on a terrible day like today. Instead of reaching your hand out as a fellow human being, here you are spewing bile as your countrymen lie dead and wounded.
Even jacqueschirac was able to act like an adult today.
You need to wake up brother. You and others think it’s a wacko conspiracy to blame the government but it’s time you look long and hard about what’s really going on and demand some answers yourself.
You don’t ever stop to think about who always, ALWAYS benefits from a terrorist attack. Everytime there is an attack we lose more of our freedoms and the government grabs more power - YOU DON’T SEE THAT?
Shit I guess the British government is following suit and attacking it’s own country as well! Let’s overthrow both governments and create a healthy state of anarchy, that’s definitely the wisest and safest solution.[/quote]
First of all I said nothing about revolt - I’m talking about AWARENESS, TRUTH and ACCOUNTABILITY. You do know this means the draft is coming back because of this event don’t you?
Britain just said it would start pulling out of Iraq:
Govt ‘plans major Iraq troop pullout’
6 July, 2005
LONDON: The defence ministry has drafted plans for a significant troop withdrawal from Iraq over the next 18 months and a big deployment to Afghanistan, the Financial Times reported yesterday.
So the crafty organization of “al-Qaeda” decides to speed up the process by bombing London. Interesting.
Now I don’t claim to be a genius but does that make any sense?
It seems everyone’s so anxious to kill Muslims - sadly I’d say lots of people are about to get their chance. They say timing is everything.
Pentagon considering major military changes - Report
7/5/2005
The Pentagon is considering a change in its military strategy that requires U.S. soldiers to be ready to fight two major wars at the same time, The New York Times reported. http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=8889
Of course if you were a “conspiracy theorist” you would have seen that coming a long time ago. How you ask? It’s right in the PNAC report “Rebuilding America’s Defenses” that only a conspiracy theorist would take seriously - you know, the one that talked about rebuilding our military, signed by - Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith, Pearle, Kristol, Jeb Bush, etc. that stated:
“Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor.”
One of the main key GOALS in this document was: “Fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theater wars.”
Other cool stuff includes:
“Future soldiers may operate in encapsulated, climate-controlled, powered fighting suits, laced with sensors, and boasting chameleonlike ‘active’ camouflage. ‘Skin-patch’ pharmaceuticals help regulate fears, focus concentration and enhance endurance and strength.” (pg74)
“And advanced forms of biological warfare that can ‘target’ specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool.” (pg72)
I didn’t make this shit up - this is a real US foreign policy document signed by 18 members of the Bush administration that advocates biological warfare targeting specific genotypes as a politically useful tool and “multiple, simultaneous major theater wars” as a goal.
THE PEOPLE RUNNING OUR COUNTRY WROTE THAT.
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
All I’m doing is posting news articles and some of you guys can’t handle it, so my freedom of speech is only respected if I have the same point of view as you, and then a couple of lightweights start calling names, sorry children I don’t go down to your level…
[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
All I’m doing is posting news articles and some of you guys can’t handle it, so my freedom of speech is only respected if I have the same point of view as you, and then a couple of lightweights start calling names, sorry children I don’t go down to your level…[/quote]
You post pictures of sheeep watching the president. And you think you are some how superior to those that support this country’s war on terror?
You live at home and have never paid a single day of rent in your life - am I even close?
Quit attempting to wrap yourself in the First Amendment. You are exercising your right to free speech. No one has taken anything from you. You don’t, however, have the right to be listened to. Especially if you are name calling and basically slandering the nation that guarantees you the right to be a total fucking moron.
Now go buy some new foil for your hat. Get the heavy duty stuff this time - that cheap shit just won’t cut it.
[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
All I’m doing is posting news articles and some of you guys can’t handle it, so my freedom of speech is only respected if I have the same point of view as you, and then a couple of lightweights start calling names, sorry children I don’t go down to your level…[/quote]
Advice: If Giuliani ever shows up in your town - LEAVE!
Giuliani Was Near Site of Bombing
By MICHAEL COOPER
Published: July 8, 2005
Rudolph W. Giuliani, whose legacy as mayor of New York City was transformed by his stewardship during and after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, was on a business trip to London yesterday when he found himself half a block from the first blast there.
