Let me say this: At some point an intermediate lifter needs to make a hard decidion about where he wants to take this whole “iron game” (I hate that phrase) thing. It’s somewhat akin to what an individual must decide when drugs are staring him in the face. Is this gonna go somewhere? I don’t think it’s feasible to think staying considerably lean is the way to go for maximum size and strength. If you wanna be big, you’re going to have to really accept being big. Not fat, per se. But bulky and heavy.
Don’t be fat and jiggly…be big, solid and kick-ass.
I’m going to bed now. Fortress needs his beauty sleep. You know how sexy I am, Lonnie. Don’t ya? Huh?
Yep. Back to the original question… Go with your strengths, my intermediate friend.
Many of the things that make Rob a good PL make him a less-competitive BB (although he has done both).
Conversely, my tendency toward small joints, waist, etc. tend to make me a sorry candidate for PL. I can’t take as much physical abuse in the 90% 1RM range, for example. I’ll stick with my “power bodybuilding” and occasional ripping phases.
Some guys can do both PL and BB successfully but as a natural guy approaches a more elite level, usually specific choices/ goals need to be made.
I have to agree with Lowery. I too like to carry around a ~12% bf then trim down as much as i can when need be (which is almost never for me because it’s not like i’m in any competitions and 12 doesn’t look too bad).
I think you let yourself get up to 20-30 like Fortress was saying, you spend too much time cutting. Remember, while you’re cutting you aren’t adding muscle, so if you spend an extra month taking off the fat that we don’t have to, we can take this time to continue to add muscle, then cut.
You may have made faster gains, but in the end it’s all equal (obviously assuming many things and making many approximations). Plus, we don’t have to carry around all that fat. Some of us just can’t live with that, no matter how much muscle it allows us to put on.
You could even take it to the extreme and give your body a cal surplus, but not all the cals it needs. That way it rebuilds par of the way, and you avoid any fat gain. You could simply do this year round. Although, you probably couldn’t stay at a 3-6 bf year round.
I wouldn’t advise it, but i certainly couldn’t let myself get up to 20% bf if i can get to the finish line at the same time with 12%.
…Aaalrighty then… time’s gotten a bit out of control on us here. Thanks for tuning-in, everyone, even if you’ve just been checking-in periodically as you surf other parts of the T-Nation tonight.
If you’ve got a question that’s burning a hole in your melon, send it to me by way of PM or email (Lonman7@hotmail.com). If it’s pretty general - in scope and in interest level - Rob and I will seriously consider it!
Remember, if you want to actually HEAR our banter in real time, the Experiments v. Experience audio CD is just $9.95 for T-Nation “citizens”. That’s a FAR CRY from what most industry books and disks will cost you! Here?s the web site:
My clock now reads 10:55 PM (EST), so stick a fork in Rob’s fat powerlifter behind… WE ARE DONE.
FEEL FREE TO POST YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS THREAD NOW IF YOU LIKE. Rob and I will send a free “E vs. E” audio CD to the first thought-provoking reply/ opinion to this thread. (I will PM you for a snail mail address, which will be destroyed after I send the disk.)
In the end, it really all comes down to goals. The question [quote]How much body fat do you two suggest I carry for best gains?[/quote] does not really lend itself to a specific answer because obviously, the gains aren’t really made clear. As a bodybuilder, I don’t think you’d ever want to go above 15% because the cutting would drain your muscles significantly: they would lose their saturation. A lot of the strength gains would stay, but the actual puff and size would be gone so that is the problem. Truth is, you don’t really need to get that fat to put on bodybuilding muscle per se. JB says he stays between 5-10% and while I wish I could say the same, I still stay between 7-10% and have no problems making steady aesthetic gains (if not major strength gains).
As far as PL goes, I would assume the circumstances are somewhat flipped, losing the saturation of the muscles isn’t that big of a deal as long as you keep the muscle and the CNS devolopment. That being said, you are probably much better off playing with higher bf levels because it is easier to pack on more functional muscle and when you trim down and, you don’t lose the CNS training.
All in all, I think it was a fun debate to be had, but really it comes down to “the best gains” in what field? Strength or body composition, and as you said, after you build up your core strength and get your body in decent shape, you have to figure out if you are better suited to PL or BB and give one avenue your all. If you keep wandering back and forth between the two, you’ll get lost and not get far
I hear a lot about big powerlifters and their big - “but not fat” - bellies. Can’t say I’ve ever felt up a 270 pound powerlifter (I prefer the lower weight classes - tee hee) so here’s a question: Isn’t this often a case of sub-abdominal fat?
This is a state where most of the fat is under the abs creating a “hard” belly. Problem is, this sub-ab fat is called “heart attack fat” by docs. It’s seriously bad stuff, much worse than “giggly” normal, sub-dermal fat.
Maybe I’m wrong. I hope I am. But if I’m not, then come on, who cares if the belly helps a lifter come out of the hole? Who wants to be known as “that guy who died at 40, but man, could he ever squat a lot!”
I would like to know what Lonnie and Rob’s feelings are regarding weight and body composition of lower weight class power lifters. Is it most advantageous to keep very lean in order to maximize lean muscle mass, or pack on some fat limiting muscle mass? Or, and I figure this is ideal, maximize muscle mass while mainting average BF and effectively dehydrating before a meet? If the third option is correct, which dehydration methods would prove to be most effective and the least damaging to performance?
Glad you folks liked the session. And some of you present more detailed thought concerning chosen sport and differing scenarios. Excellent. Fortress will give some consideration and get back to ya.
Thanks again for tuning in.
How would you rather die: being riddled with machine-gun fire, or taking a battle axe to the head? Just wondering.
Definately the Battle Axe to the head. Mainly because I would assume that I would also have a weapon of the same genre, like a Maul or some sort of bludgeoning tool. So it would seem like more of a battle and less of just killing.
silly I know.
-Dave
Oh yeah, I loved the actual discussion, I know for myself though that putting on alot of fat, or taking off alot is a strain, If I put on alot of fat I am extremely warm, uncomfortably so. And if I try to cut to excess, then my gains slow down, So when trying for big gains I try to keep my body happy and comfortable.
SexyJ…
Even as an aesthetic-minded person, I’d have to think that a body fat percentage closer to 10-12, not 5-7, is much more advantageous for general gym performance, recovery ability, injury prevention, and muscular gains. I suppose I disagree with JB there. Of course genetics come into play - but most big guys aren’t easily and naturally five or six percent fat year round! This isn’t strictly a scientific argument but comes from (20 years of) personal experience.
It’s not just the ultra-lean body comp that’s a stand-alone factor here. Certainly a restrictive diet and “cardio” come into play for most lifters who maintain sub-8% leanness - these habits reduce or redirect physical resources away from muscle growth. I even like the LOOK of a big, glycogen-replete physique around 10% fat. (As I mentioned, I enjoy leanness after annual ripping phases too.)
I personally used to stay as lean as you all the time but added 20 pounds of muscle (yes, I measured body comp) when I strategically increased kcal and dietary variety while reducing any non-lifting activities. You may find yourself up around 215 with careful planning if you can gently ease up on the year-round leanness throttle.
