All.
In response to the female question on body fat and patsy’s response, I got some on male body fat.
What are some symptoms of low as hell male body fat?..For example, I have noticed, that when I lean out for summer or a show, when i get real low (approx 5.5% or so) that it :
a) becomes hard as hell to either eat at mntce or hypocalorice (seems as if you always have a binge day).
b) the stomach feels as if it is eating itself apart–almost as if you can “feel” a tingling in that area
c) sleep quality becomes compromised (this may be a function of hypocaloric calories)
d) unless on keto (and I mean strict keto with around 75g/fat a day), T seems to plummet…this could be both due to the hypocalories AND low body fat, as we know that leptin also has some regulation of T.
Either way, how long do most competitive bb’ers or other T-maggers maintain the 5-6% body fat range?
Later
Vain
(Note: This information came from one of the recent mags. I’m still trying to track down the original paper. Seems credible…)
A few years ago, United States Army Researchers sought the precise lower level of bodyfat in men. The subjects were highly trained, highly fit Rangers.
What was found was that men engaged in intense daily activity could get their bodyfat levels down to about 6 percent without losing muscle. Any lower led to the body’s tapping into protein stores or muscle in order to preserve essential bodyfat stores. (As a comparison, the “standard” healthy bodyfat often suggested for most men is 15 percent).
Realistically, a truly ripped bodybuilder likely has a bodyfat range of between 4-7 percent. (Again, lower that about 6 percent, one would begin to stop burning fat and start tapping into muscle stores to preserve essential bodyfat stores).
Perhaps if someone can track down the original paper (I’m trying!) we could gain more insights. It seems to support the things you’re feeling Vain…
From my experience, when I hold my body fat at ~6% (which is low for me) for months at a time, eventually I suffer from chronically low energy levels, my WO’s start to suffer, strength starts to suffer, WO recovery is slower, and I start to feel abnormally “cold” all the time. From symptoms, I believe T levels and thyroid levels (along with other hormones) continue to drop as symptoms progress. When I finally increase calories and let BF increase to 8% (which is a LOT easier for me to maintain), energy levels improve dramatically, WO’s become much easier and more enjoyable, progress resumes, and the constant “cold” feeling goes away. I find I’m strongest in the gym when I let BF increase to 10% but find 8% the best compromise between strength and ab definition. I no longer try to hold extremely low BF% but now try to bulk up to 8-9% and then diet down to 6-7% and repeat, averaging 7-8% between cycles. This allows for average 2-3 week cycles and makes for “cutting” a lot easier and more enjoyable as both “cutting” and “bulking” cycles never last more than 2-3 weeks. Having to cut for only 2-3 weeks is easier and you can cycle calories extremely low for short periods with little effect on LBM or hormone levels - those problems develop only after longer periods of calorie deficit. Also, the shorter cutting cycles seem to constantly “prime” your body to gain LBM on the next 2 week bulking cycle. I occasionally take a couple week break and eat at maintenance. This strategy is a lot easier for me to maintain and I feel a lot better over all, while maintaining decent ab definition and still make consistant gains in the gym.
Shit, the lowest I have been is 8% and I get damn near all of those symptoms…in fact, whenever I go at or under 10% I start to see some of them. I usually only stay under ten for a few weeks before I bring it back up a few points…then again, I am not a competitve BB’er (yet!)…I just feel much better with around 11-12%.
Mufusa
Actually, I have both those original papers by Nindl et. al done on army rangers. Actually corresponded with Nindl once or twice;
After the course, and increased catabolism had set in, the Rangers more or less binged and they did a second study on “rebound fat gain” which suggested that body fat levels rebounded to above pre ranger course levels.
I guess I just had a problem or two with their methodologies etc…
I’ll get the actual cites for you tomorrow as I am about to roll to sleep here, but, out of curiousity, what have you yourself felt when hitting those levels
what about everyone else?
Later
Vain
I seem to recall reading in Dan Duchaines book BodyOpus that a male can consistently maintain around 6% bodyfat indefinitely, and remain healthy. I don’t believe that was with drugs, but then it’s been ages since I read the book. I also take it as given that levels will differ between individuals. Dunno if it’s true or not, as I’ve only ever been down to about 7% for a month - and I was way to thin, so I packed on about 35lbs in 3 years and here I am…
around 5-7% i feel great. no problems at all and it is relatively easy to maintain. but if i venture down below 5% to around 4% i become a real asshole. very irritable and short tempered. i don’t try to go that low very often or for very long. i usually do it to get primed for a growing phase. i have never done a keto diet before and usually keep my carbs high even when leaning to these levels. i am not a big fan a starvation, so i eat well and just utilize cardio to keep lean. muscle loss at these levels even with all the cardio has never been a problem for me, prolly cause my carbs are always so high. kevo
Mufusa:
here are the cites on those articles:
A) Friedl, K.E., Moore, R.J., Lopez-Martinez, L.E., Vogel, J.A. et al. (1994). Lower limit of body fat in healthy active young men. Journal of Applied Physiology, 77, 933-940.
B) Nindl, B.C., Friedl, K.E., Marchitelli, L.J., et al. (1996). Regional fat placement in physically fit males and changes with weight loss. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 28 (7), 786-793.
C) Nindl, B.C., Friedl, P.N., Frykman, L.J., et al. (1997). Physical performance and metabolic recovery among lean, healthy men following a prolonged energy defecit. Journal of Sports Medicine, 18, 317-324.
D) [this one is a great theory article–check it out]
Dullo, A.G. and Jacquet, J. (1999). The control of partitioning between protein and fat during human starvation: It’s internal determinants and biological significance. British Journal of Nutrition, 82, 339-356.
Interestingly, I e-mailed Nindl, and he was initially receptive to some of my questions saying “he would get back to me.” Now, whether my questions were too detailed, or that I insulted him by challenged a few things he said in the articles, he never did reply (and I e-mailed him once again). Anyway, the third Nindl article (the one dealing with recovery after the Army Ranger course) clearly evidences that the reason LBM gains come after severe cutting is becuase T levels rebound to higher than pre-cut levels becuase of the fact that T has been “naturally” suppressed by self-induced caloric restriction. I noticed this myself after my first cut, where I (ignorantly I might add) tried to maintain 4% body fat by eating 2100 kcal a day. After two months of refeeding, it was clear I had “blown up.” This study is VERY IMPORTANT from the standpoint of what WE do on this cite, as first: it tells us how to really make dieting and lean gain cycles effective by naturally manipulating T and second for those of the people here that use MAG-10, its value could be further enhanced if used at the correct time and done properly. I might suggest that when dieting, although we do want to keep our T levels decent in order to spare LBM, towards the end of the “contest” diet, or other style of diet, there is definite utility in struggling to maintain a low body fat, even if for just a short while, by self-induced caloric-restriction due to the rebound gains noted in T (of course with proper refeed diet).
Just some thoughts.
Vain
Bodybuilders are such a different group because we want low body fat, but huge muscles. No other sport or activity asks the body to maintain this type of balance. In sports where strength is key, you need size and a little body fat does not hurt. In sports where you need low body fat, too much muscle mass may hurt you.
That said, the only people I see maintaining year round, low single digit body fats are small endurance athletes and those whom God has really blessed with good parents. People who compete in endurance style sports expend so much energy that it is almost impossible to put on fat. But these same people often have depressed immune systems, low T, and other symptoms that we try to avoid.
I think Heb hit the nail on the head. There are ranges that make you look great, but are very hard to maintain. There are ranges where you look good, can maintain it, but you're not your strongest and then there are ranges where you look pretty good, but you are your strongest.
We just have to learn what these ranges are, and learn how to manipulate our time periods that we spend in these regions for maximal effect.
I don't think that there is a reason to stay at extremely low levels of body fat for long periods of time if it would be more beneficial to let our body fats creep up a bit for our time periods where we want to gain muscle.
Was it my calling extreme low BF% for competition, the “hating life” zone? Cuz, to me it is. IMO, you become “hyper sensitive” to just about everything. What you eat, how much water you’re drinking, to just about everything around you. It’s a awful feeling. And thank god, it’s only temporary - for a contest.
I've seen women who are in the 5% arena of BF - and they either look really flat or very ripped. I've seen women compete in the 6-8% arena and the same can be said: either really ripped and full, or just plain flat. The same thing can be said for the male competitors. Heb is right: all individual.
And Jason is right: I think the body's preference is for a tad bit more of BF. I know I feel and look better around the 8-10% arena.
I think what many have touched on here is that how one feels at very low bf levels is highly individual. I know some people who can maintain 7%bf with very little effort. There strength stays consistent and there performance in athletics is not compromised at all. For others the opposite is the harsh reality. I have to fight like hell to get below 10%bf. When I do I feel o.k as long as I’m just lifting and doing a little cardio. If I throw in MMA and grappling training into the mix, my performance drops big time. I remember reading an interview with Gabriel Reese (model/beach volleyball player) in which she did’nt like dieting down for model shoots because it compromised her performance in volleyball. She felt she was much better with a little bit of visible body fat than ultra lean.
Mag: Doesn’t this bring up a point Pat made on a previous post? WITHIN LIMITS, how one feels probably depends on 1)ones natural “setpoint” which PROBABLY is determined by 2)how long one has maintained a certain bodyfat percentage.
I put the “within limits”, because at some point, it seems like everyones body will begin to attempt to “protect” those essential fat stores. (By the way…I’ve seen on many a board, and heard many in the gym, spouting off “2%” and even “0%” bodyfat. I simply let them have their day…it’s not physiologically possible.)
Patricia
That is exactly how I feel now…ULtrasensitive…I try to watch what i drink, make sure to take a good diuretic before bed and watch like hell what i eat…I am trying to maintain or peak at around 5% for the summer…but training at that level, as well as trying to maintain a healthy immune system is starting to get REAL hard. Went to the local bar last night to see some friends who graduated, and BAM now I am sick. It’s an interesting phenomenon for me, just saw your post, and I agree with you completetly.
Later
Vain
Im a former fat guy( was probably in the range of 15-18%bf range a year ago) but since I started to cut, Ive been able to maintain low bf levels. According to the bf calculator my bf is 2%, which is bullshit, but this is what the cal says when I put in my numbers. I wouldnt say that im more than 5% though( skinfolds chest: 2mm thigh 3mm ABS 6.5-7 mm)). The reason I can stay this low, AND keep my sanity and well being( still getting progressively stronger in the gym) is… 1) My body is used to this bf level. I havent “bulked” in a year! 2) Im young( 20) and pretty light( 165 lbs, 6^ 1) 3) I watch my diet and follow a CKD approach.
To Sprawl-Why would anyone who is as tall as 6’1" try to stay at 165lbs? I see this a lot on thise site and I have to wonder, what is the point of stressing this much about what you eat and how if no one can even tell you lift weights seriously unless you take your shirt off? Is it the current trend to try to maintain a single digit body fat reading while building as little size as possible? Do you consider yourself a “bodybuilder”?
Mufasa: Yup, what I’ve always “instinctively” have believed - that your body will get useto a certain BF% if you stick to it awhile. Which is why I prefer to be around 8% before a show. That way, it’s not “painful” to drop a percentage or two during the eight weeks of pre-contest.
Vain: dude, eat a nice big meal. Treat your mind, spirit and body. You won't raise your BF% - but you will certainly help your body's ability to recover - thereby increasing your immune system.
I can’t speak for Sprawl, but for others, the reason for staying at a low body weight, is because of sports which have weight classes: wrestling, boxing, powerlifting, etc. I am the perfect height /weight for a middle/super-middle weight,and have always stayed at around 155 -165. Its where my body wants to stay. Now that I don’t fight I can try to bulk but there’s nothing wrong with staying low.
Patricia,
no worries, as I did carb up with Low GI at about 1.5x mntc…I consider myself in a “cut-etch” phase right now, trying to get that last little body fat tweeked off (down to around 5% even–maybe 4.5%) and then just sit around there for a bit during the summer. Yeah, its grueling and rough, but it pays off I think in a number of ways. Some days I eat at mntc, some I eat slight above, while the majority I eat at about -500 to 900 or so. Thus allowing me to stay sane per se. Strict keto was abandoned at 6% as this is where I wanted to upregulate leptin and refill muscle glycogen for the last “push.”
Its rough, but, I’d rather be semi-big and ripped up for the summer than big and “soft”…
to me, the essence of bb’ing is the golden pair…being jacked, and cut as hell. Not many can do it, or stay there for long. With considerable determination, perserverence, and yes, some extreme dieting, you can do it…(of course, you already know that)…
I’m out
Vain
To KO- Hey, there is nothing wrong with maintaining a certain weight for sports, however, that wasn’t what I was referring to. I have seen some of the pictures from some of the regulars on this board and I have been coming to this site long enough to know that everyone who seems to be stuck on a perpetual cutting phase is not training for sports in school. Hey, we all have different goals and mine is not to look like a professional bodybuilder, however, some of the people here seem to be paying EXTREME attention to their diet to the point of being a little excessive when they aren’t carrying enough-or trying to build a significant amount of-size. I see this in my gym a lot more currently as well. You know, the 140lbs dudes jumping on a tread mill for 30min as if they are trying to lose something that only they can see. I am working on definition now but that is after working on building size for the past few years. Abs are great and mine are coming through, but it seems as if “abs” are the primary goal on this site and building any significant amount of size is lost in the extreme attention to percentages, training strategies, and cycles of supplements. I may be seriously mistaken but where are the people who lift because the goal is to get as strong as possible along with putting some size on. I am not trying to insult anyone, I just want know what the deal is. I know genetics have much to do with the results you see from bodybuilding, but with all of this attention to detail, I would be expecting to see some competition level physiques across the board.
Prof: First of all, it’s good to see you posting again!
I don’t want to get too philosophical here, Prof, but I think that a lot of what you are alluding to is cultural. As of the year 2002, our “physical culture” is in fact an “ab culture”. All you need to do is look at T.V. and print ads. Every other infomercial is in some way related to abs. Even if it is meant to give us a flat “battissimo”, that infomercial will be dominated by ab shots. Young girls and women are everywhere, bearing hip-huggers, waistlets and flat abs, cooing at us and telling us that they are a “Slave” for us or urging us to buy diet Pepsi, “Gap” jeans and Reeboks.
Hey…even as a fat kid I can remember wanting more that anything to have the “stomach” (never heard of a “six pack”) of the Super Heroes in the comic books or by what I saw in the old Dan Lurie/Charles Atlas booklets.
How many times have you read on this site some guy wanting the “Men’s Health Guy” look, or (God knows why) to look like Brad Pitt in “Fight Club?” Even though I’ve always wanted a little more size than these guys (more along the lines of the “natural” middle weights, OR much like ko, I too, am 5’10” and push for a MAX weight of about 180 or so of solid muscle), I admit being influenced by this culture. It’s almost unavoidable. How many guys’ minds don’t drift off thinking of Jennifer Anniston lying beside us or Brittany Spears dancing and cooing at the foot of our beds?
So…I never really wanted to be “Hyooge”. I do push for strength, however, because ultimately that will get us through old age much better than ripped abs. But that influence is there…and probably will be for a long time to come…dammit…