LIMITS

Training
861

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:

This is also why people asked for examples. The only example given is yourself, but your data is somewhat grey due to innaccuracy. I know you(px) have a decent knowledge of bodybuilding and competitors, maybe you could just provide a few guys you think meet the criteria. You seem to follow it more than a lot of guys, or you did in the past any way.[/quote]

Anyone who has been posted in the past gets labeled as “unnatural” so what would be the point of doing that again?
I used myself because I know what I accomplished. I also know people better than me so obviously they can do more.[/quote]

The people who are better than you…are they also natty?

And they have gained even more lean mass than you?

Have they competed? They would have to be freaky…any natty competitors we would recognize?
[/quote]

Most of the people I have known with the best genetics either don’t care about competing, or they staid natural until they built a good deal of size and started using anabolics.

In fact, I know very few people over the course of several years who even care about natural bodybuilding or follow it at all whether they use or not.

862

if you got lean (not contest lean just like “I’m a bodybuilder, not a powerlifter lean”) would you still have 20+ inch arms and 30+ inch thighs?

863

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
if you got lean (not contest lean just like “I’m a bodybuilder, not a powerlifter lean”) would you still have 20+ inch arms and 30+ inch thighs?[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not.

How many people here have 20" arms at all without being obese?

You seem to be missing the obvious.

864

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:
Really the whole debate hinges on all this grey area. Started lifting at 15? Well you were still growing, even without lifting weights, estimates of body fat from both sides, etc. Chalk it up to interesting stuff for kicking around in a debate, but no one is being limited by these discussions.
[/quote]

You pretty much summed it up perfectly.

865

Look, here’s the deal:

Does X think he gained more than 80 pounds of muscle? Yes.
Does virtually everyone else posting here think that he hasn’t? Yes.
Does X look like some sloppy obese guy? (Not in the clinical body fat percentage term but by the look that most people associate the word obese) No.

As far as I can tell no one has said that Professor X isn’t carrying a lot of muscle mass. He has built a ton of muscle but is also carrying a decent amount of fat ( some prefer to carry less, others are ok with carrying more) and I think that it all boils down to this “THERE ARE MORE THAN ONE WAY TO SKIN A CAT” or “DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS”

Live and let live. Lets keep the positive vibe, that this sub forum has seemed to adopt as of late, going strong.

866

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Look, here’s the deal:

Does X think he gained more than 80 pounds of muscle? Yes.
Does virtually everyone else posting here think that he hasn’t? Yes.
Does X look like some sloppy obese guy? (Not in the clinical body fat percentage term but by the look that most people associate the word obese) No.

As far as I can tell no one has said that Professor X isn’t carrying a lot of muscle mass. He has built a ton of muscle but is also carrying a decent amount of fat ( some prefer to carry less, others are ok with carrying more) and I think that it all boils down to this “THERE ARE MORE THAN ONE WAY TO SKIN A CAT” or “DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS”

Live and let live. Lets keep the positive vibe, that this sub forum has seemed to adopt as of late, going strong.[/quote]

It’s not that simple though is it. Despite the fact there are plenty of ways to skin a cat, when it comes to getting to the upper percentile of lean body mass development, the way x did it is the way that virtually everyone who has attained that level of development has, by eating a shit load. I know one natural lifter who doesnt compete anymore who is a lean 225 at about 5 7. And when I say lean I mean he stays about 6 percent accurately measured year round. He looks amazing, but size wise he could have got even bigger had he not limited his diet so much. It took him nearly two decades of strict dieting and hardcore training to get like that. He started out at about 150 pounds. That’s way more than the supposed 50 pound limit that’s been touted for naturals on this thread. And I know for a FACT he is natural, if he has been on gear then he hid it really fucking well from everyone around him.

On the other hand, there are a much much greater number of people out there who get into lifting, get huge and for whatever reason don’t compete. These people do not factor into the sample selected for most of the comparisons made in this thread. The vast majority if you ask them how they got that big, they almost universally say the same thing. EAT. If you are worried about fat gain, do more cardio and take a fat burner, just don’t stop eating.

The other thing that is hard to ignore is that the people who bulk up the old fashioned way, get big and put up decent numbers in the weight room, when they finally do lean down, end up looking much thicker and more dense. Just look at any of the heavyweight power lifters that leaned down, dave Tate being a great example. You can literally see the density in his muscles. When heavy thrower leans down he will look fucking awesome, I can guarantee it, and if you compare him to someone his height and weight at a similar level of leanness, he will look better.

I think it’s because most people get into bodybuilding to improve their looks, which stemming out of an insecurity of sorts, makes it that much harder to accept conventional bodybuilding wisdom and makes it very difficult to accept that you might have to not look your best to get the best end result.

867

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

Live and let live. Lets keep the positive vibe, that this sub forum has seemed to adopt as of late, going strong.

It’s not that simple though is it. Despite the fact there are plenty of ways to skin a cat, when it comes to getting to the upper percentile of lean body mass development, the way x did it is the way that virtually everyone who has attained that level of development has, by eating a shit load. I know one natural lifter who doesnt compete anymore who is a lean 225 at about 5 7. And when I say lean I mean he stays about 6 percent accurately measured year round. [/quote]

A natural lifter at 225 and 5’7" who sports onstage leanness all year round.

Good one!

[quote]

He looks amazing, but size wise he could have got even bigger had he not limited his diet so much. It took him nearly two decades of strict dieting and hardcore training to get like that. He started out at about 150 pounds. That’s way more than the supposed 50 pound limit that’s been touted for naturals on this thread. And I know for a FACT he is natural, if he has been on gear then he hid it really fucking well from everyone around him. [/quote]

Ah, another one who would have outdone all naturals that ever existed but we never heard about him for some reason and who could grow naturally for decades on end.

[quote]
… just don’t stop eating. [/quote]

Nice!

And there are also permabulkers who looked awful when they came down, except no one likes to use them as examples or talk about the problems permabulkers have when trying to maintain their leanness or get lean.

This has been spoken of by permabulkers for a long time, when others have wound up successful with a different approach, that being staying leaner year round, which is for some odd reason interpreted as staying so lean they can’t gain muscle.

868

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

Live and let live. Lets keep the positive vibe, that this sub forum has seemed to adopt as of late, going strong.

It’s not that simple though is it. Despite the fact there are plenty of ways to skin a cat, when it comes to getting to the upper percentile of lean body mass development, the way x did it is the way that virtually everyone who has attained that level of development has, by eating a shit load. I know one natural lifter who doesnt compete anymore who is a lean 225 at about 5 7. And when I say lean I mean he stays about 6 percent accurately measured year round. [/quote]

A natural lifter at 225 and 5’7" who sports onstage leanness all year round.

Good one!
[/quote]

5’7 225 natural at 6% body fat year round?

869

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

Live and let live. Lets keep the positive vibe, that this sub forum has seemed to adopt as of late, going strong.

It’s not that simple though is it. Despite the fact there are plenty of ways to skin a cat, when it comes to getting to the upper percentile of lean body mass development, the way x did it is the way that virtually everyone who has attained that level of development has, by eating a shit load. I know one natural lifter who doesnt compete anymore who is a lean 225 at about 5 7. And when I say lean I mean he stays about 6 percent accurately measured year round. [/quote]

A natural lifter at 225 and 5’7" who sports onstage leanness all year round.

Good one!
[/quote]

5’7 225 natural at 6% body fat year round?
[/quote]

Yes, stage ready all year round at 225 and 5’7". You know, someone who walks around like a stage-ready Flex Lewis or Kevin English and Jose Raymond, only bigger.

870

Flex Lewis
5’5"
212 class
about 4 to 6% bodyfat
offseason weight: 220’s, I believe

871


Kevin English
5’7"
212 or 202 class

872


Mendy
6’ or 6’1" (not sure)
Full House
Weight: over the years, 290 to low 300’s

873

X: How is three to four months out from a show “near contest ready”?

874

Nasser
5’11"
Smooth as he would get
Three bills!

875

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Kevin English
5’7"
212 or 202 class[/quote]

At no point did I say he is stage ready year round, unless you count 6 percent bf as stage ready…

He’s not even a bodybuilder, he’s an ex power lifter. He thinks bodybuilding is gay lol.

You do realise that to compare a natural guy vs drug assisted is apples and oranges. Since I’ve never stepped on stage I don’t know when the weigh ins are done for bodybuilding, but in powerlifting it usually the night before and people who compete in a particular weight class usually walk around 14-20 pounds heavier than the weight they weigh in at, due to the use of diuretics.

From your posts I can tell you don’t believe me, but I can assure you he is totally real.

876

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

Live and let live. Lets keep the positive vibe, that this sub forum has seemed to adopt as of late, going strong.

It’s not that simple though is it. Despite the fact there are plenty of ways to skin a cat, when it comes to getting to the upper percentile of lean body mass development, the way x did it is the way that virtually everyone who has attained that level of development has, by eating a shit load. I know one natural lifter who doesnt compete anymore who is a lean 225 at about 5 7. And when I say lean I mean he stays about 6 percent accurately measured year round. [/quote]

A natural lifter at 225 and 5’7" who sports onstage leanness all year round.

Good one!
[/quote]

5’7 225 natural at 6% body fat year round?
[/quote]

All he eats is protein and salad. I personally think he’s crazy. He hardly ever cheats, I mean virtually never.

877

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

At no point did I say he is stage ready year round, unless you count 6 percent bf as stage ready…

[/quote]

This: 6% is stage ready.

Your friends stats outdo every natural lifter of any sort, bodybuilder or powerlifter.

878

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

At no point did I say he is stage ready year round, unless you count 6 percent bf as stage ready…

[/quote]

This: 6% is stage ready.

Your friends stats outdo every natural lifter of any sort, bodybuilder or powerlifter. [/quote]

That’s what two decades of absolute resolve and dedication get you.

879

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

At no point did I say he is stage ready year round, unless you count 6 percent bf as stage ready…

[/quote]

This: 6% is stage ready.

Your friends stats outdo every natural lifter of any sort, bodybuilder or powerlifter. [/quote]

That’s what two decades of absolute resolve and dedication get you.
[/quote]

Yeah, outdoing every powerlifter and bodybuilder in lean mass over 6 decades.

880

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:
It seems to me that brick is dropping all these 290-300lb monster pics here to draw a comparison between X, and huge pro bodybuilders. I don’t think he’s saying X is small or mostly fat, just that something seems a little off. For X to be as lean as he thinks he was at those weights, and therefore carrying as much muscle as he seems to think, would put him on the same level as these guys. Either X is carried more fat than he realized, or he has achieved a level of muscularity far beyond any known natural.

This is why every one is calling for a more accurate measurement of bodyfat than callipers or eye balling.I’m not on any side, this just seems to be the jist of what’s going on here. [/quote]

How does posting a picture of Dorian Yates mean someone can’t gain 80lbs of lean body mass?

If someone goes from 130lbs of lean body mass to 210lbs of lean body mass, they did it.

How does posting a picture of Dorian Yates mean this can’t happen?

I have been body fat tested recently.[/quote]

The pictures of professional bodybuilders became relevant when you started using yourself as an example. I’m not saying it isn’t possible, because depending on what starting point you look at, it is possible. Really the whole debate hinges on all this grey area. Started lifting at 15? Well you were still growing, even without lifting weights, estimates of body fat from both sides, etc. Chalk it up to interesting stuff for kicking around in a debate, but no one is being limited by these discussions.

Part if why this debate went so long is how you talked yourself up so much. It just came across as arrogant. “look at me, I’m awesome and I did it. End of debate. P.s. don’t limit yourselves” [/quote]

I am not talking myself up. I just stated what I did and posted pictures and said that other people are better than me.

If you do believe it is possible, then we do not disagree.[/quote]

The problem is the methods used to determine your body fat vs lbm. There are much more accurate methods than callipers or the mirror. If we are going to use you as an example, people just want more tangible proof.

[/quote]

YEP.

[/quote]

This is also why people asked for examples. The only example given is yourself, but your data is somewhat grey due to innaccuracy. I know you(px) have a decent knowledge of bodybuilding and competitors, maybe you could just provide a few guys you think meet the criteria. You seem to follow it more than a lot of guys, or you did in the past any way.[/quote]

Yeah, well according to X the buck stops with him on everything! His world is THE WORLD–it all starts and stops with him. Because HE doesn’t know many or even a few people who don’t even give a rat’s ass about natural bodybuilding, we should just not even use examples of people WE know, and people WE know of! Because he knows some who pulled off permabulking well (gained a lot of muscle mass and leaned out right), WE shouldn’t use ourselve or others as examples as people who didn’t or couldn’t pull it off right. Guys who had a shit ton of trouble coming down, or ruined their skin tautness? They don’t exist because X didn’t see them.