[quote]bpick86 wrote:
…a 25 page argument over a misunderstanding[/quote]
um…What is TNation, Alex?
THAT IS CORRECT!!
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
Have we been talking about adding 80-100 lbs of muscle or are we talking lean body mass? I was under the impression it was total lean body mass but if its muscle then that changes “nearly impossible” to “aint gonna happen” [/quote]
I have stated lean body mass from the beginning. There would be no way to know exactly how much dry weight was muscle without autopsy. [/quote]
Needs autopsy for dry weight verification, uses “doubtfully” for self BF assessment.
You can’t make this up.
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
So have has there been a 25 page argument over a misunderstanding?[/quote]
Pretty sure this whole subsection of Tnation is about a misunderstanding
Adding 80 lbs of LBM could be possible depending on when you started counting. If grew and added some size to your frame in that time I might could see it but like I said the times this would happen are going to be very few and far between. It would be like me using 5’10 145 with single digit bodyfat as my starting point but I was 15 years old. Within a year I had gained enough lean body mass to put me at 5’11 170 with about the same bodyfat. Did I gain LBM, technically yeah but no one here is talking about that.
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
Have we been talking about adding 80-100 lbs of muscle or are we talking lean body mass? I was under the impression it was total lean body mass but if its muscle then that changes “nearly impossible” to “aint gonna happen” [/quote]
I have stated lean body mass from the beginning. There would be no way to know exactly how much dry weight was muscle without autopsy. [/quote]
Needs autopsy for dry weight verification, uses “doubtfully” for self BF assessment.
You can’t make this up.[/quote]
NO ONE WILL AGREE WITH ME PART 2
…a continuation from every other thread in this subforum
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
also as a side not, just because somebody is better at arguing, does not mean they are right… lol, i learned this a long time ago. [/quote]
But, if someone can’t even debate the points someone is making and in turn chooses to go to personal insults, it usually means that person does not have a stance they can defend.[/quote]
We learned it from watching you, OK!!!
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
You know your spinning your wheels when you start arguing over what you are arguing about. But pure muscle is not really possible with the improbable exception that someone like a Dwight Howard type starts seriously bodybuilding. LBM is not impossible, but not likely, but there a lot more factors contributing to that than just muscle.[/quote]
Agreed…which is why the discussion is about lean body mass.
No one could even determine someone’s dry muscle weight unless they died first.[/quote]
No it’s about limits. Or so says the thread title. Pleas stay on topic.
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
You know your spinning your wheels when you start arguing over what you are arguing about. But pure muscle is not really possible with the improbable exception that someone like a Dwight Howard type starts seriously bodybuilding. LBM is not impossible, but not likely, but there a lot more factors contributing to that than just muscle.[/quote]
Agreed…which is why the discussion is about lean body mass.
No one could even determine someone’s dry muscle weight unless they died first.[/quote]
No it’s about limits. Or so says the thread title. Pleas stay on topic.[/quote]
Yes but the limits of what, LBM or muscle weight?
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
Adding 80 lbs of LBM could be possible depending on when you started counting. If grew and added some size to your frame in that time I might could see it but like I said the times this would happen are going to be very few and far between. It would be like me using 5’10 145 with single digit bodyfat as my starting point but I was 15 years old. Within a year I had gained enough lean body mass to put me at 5’11 170 with about the same bodyfat. Did I gain LBM, technically yeah but no one here is talking about that.[/quote]
It all came about because it was stated that Brick looked at natural comopetitors to come up with his “80lbs limit”.
No one was discussing dry weight of muscle. That wouldn’t even make sense at all.
The issue was, it is sure that most natural bodybuilders didn’t even start training after the age of full maturity and that most of the people who would even be most affected by this “limit” are guys who had not stopped growing yet…which makes the statement of that as a limit even more pointless.
The argument has never been that there is NO limit at all or that most people can gain 80lbs of lean body mass.
The confusion also occurs because you have many people in these threads just to do what you see here, fill pages and pages with bickering for no reason missing the point.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
The confusion also occurs because you have many people in these threads just
to do what you see here, fill pages and pages with bickering for no reason
missing the point.[/quote]
Anyone in particular you’d care to mention? I mean, if you’d care to identify them as such. There has to be a specific poster who especially stands out in this regard. Maybe it’s the same ONE who does this in multiple threads over the course of countless discussions. I’d wager that particular forum member in question has a prolific post count too.
I never imagined a man so small could carry so much weight.
Question:
Did most natural competitors over the last few decades start lfiting AFTER the age of full maturity or the ages of 20-22?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
Adding 80 lbs of LBM could be possible depending on when you started counting. If grew and added some size to your frame in that time I might could see it but like I said the times this would happen are going to be very few and far between. It would be like me using 5’10 145 with single digit bodyfat as my starting point but I was 15 years old. Within a year I had gained enough lean body mass to put me at 5’11 170 with about the same bodyfat. Did I gain LBM, technically yeah but no one here is talking about that.[/quote]
It all came about because it was stated that Brick looked at natural comopetitors to come up with his “80lbs limit”.
No one was discussing dry weight of muscle. That wouldn’t even make sense at all.
The issue was, it is sure that most natural bodybuilders didn’t even start training after the age of full maturity and that most of the people who would even be most affected by this “limit” are guys who had not stopped growing yet…which makes the statement of that as a limit even more pointless.
The argument has never been that there is NO limit at all or that most people can gain 80lbs of lean body mass.
The confusion also occurs because you have many people in these threads just to do what you see here, fill pages and pages with bickering for no reason missing the point.[/quote]
Well I don’t really think anyone is keeping up with the LBM gains and if they were to approach 80lbs are gonna just give up. Anybody that has been lifting and gotten anywhere near that point is not going to be concerned with that number more than likely. They are probably just interested in making sure they are making gradual progress and are not just gonna quit because they hit some magic number.
Brick made an observation that I think is pretty accurate in matured individuals. It didn’t give me the impression that he was trying to hold anyone back or anything like that, so I don’t understand the complete assault on that one point of view. I would think that even you would have to agree that in the absence of adding some significant non-muscle LBM, a trainee will almost certainly not hit the 80lbm LBM gain mark?
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
Well I don’t really think anyone is keeping up with the LBM gains and if they were to approach 80lbs are gonna just give up. Anybody that has been lifting and gotten anywhere near that point is not going to be concerned with that number more than likely. [/quote]
Agreed. That is why the issue is NEWBS believing this when most of them are still growing anyway.
It is agreed that someone who had been training for a while before ever considering this would be LEAST affected.
The average person who gets into serious bodybuilding/weightlifting doesn’t start after the age of full maturity. They start younger than that…which means most of the people he could have ever looked at started after that age…which nullifies the point of giving that SPECIFIC number.
[quote]
It didn’t give me the impression that he was trying to hold anyone back or anything like that, so I don’t understand the complete assault on that one point of view. I would think that even you would have to agree that in the absence of adding some significant non-muscle LBM, a trainee will almost certainly not hit the 80lbm LBM gain mark?[/quote]
I apparently hit “79lbs” so unless it is impossible for me to gain an extra pound, the bottom line is, people can cross that mark so it is one thing to say most people can’t…and quite another to do like he has and state that it is impossible for a natural bodybuilder to do this.
Agreed?
Question:
What questions can I ask you guys that will lead you toward agreeing with what I say in a roundabout way?
As a 150lb 18 year old, I am going to jump out on a limb and say your probably added a decent amount of size to your skeletal structure in that time you were lifting. I don’t know this obviously but I feel like it would be a safe assumption. That’s why I threw that “in the absence of adding some significant non-muscle LBM” caveat in there. A 150 lb 5’10 18 year old is fairly small and if you were able to work up and carry 285 with any efficiency I have to assume you had some decent skeletal structure changes.
Content with what he carries
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
As a 150lb 18 year old, I am going to jump out on a limb and say your probably added a decent amount of size to your skeletal structure in that time you were lifting. I don’t know this obviously but I feel like it would be a safe assumption. That’s why I threw that “in the absence of adding some significant non-muscle LBM” caveat in there. A 150 lb 5’10 18 year old is fairly small and if you were able to work up and carry 285 with any efficiency I have to assume you had some decent skeletal structure changes.
[/quote]
Do you also understand that as the human body ages, there is more visceral fat gain and skeletal density changes? That is we focus on LEAN BODY MASS because these other factors are variables you can’t tell with 100% accuracy without dying first.
I didn’t grow in height at all which is the main factor being looked at when discussing age of maturity.
I finally got it by reading between the lines.
Great genetics are needed.
Great genetics can be used to gain over 800.
Great genetics = huge mouth + huge jaw + huge appetite.
No more missing link !
I do understand that. I didn’t grow in height at all after 15 but I outgrew almost every suit jacket I owned, because I got wider. I do understand all that contributes to the increase in weight which contributes to the increase in LBM but what I am saying is without those cheap gains in skeletal density, bone breadth, tendon and ligament changes, 80lbs LBM is extremely exceptional.