LIMITS

Training
421

[quote]BHappy wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:
Brick -

what is your opinion on X claiming to start at 150 11% and to currently be 250 15%?

hasn’t he gained 80lbs LBM?[/quote]

The caliper test is useless for us. You have to understand, if someone tells someone that she/he is fat it can create a distance between the 2. But put in a cheap tool(caliper) use a short break(consult a table, add a few numbers) and the fat verdict comes from some unknown expert(s). In a gym setting any student working at minimum wage can charge 20$ or more while earning a buck, that is what many consider good business. A personal trainer might prove you that you are improving under her/his guidance and sell you more private sessions.
It only serves to mesure the under skin fat. Deep down fat escapes the caliper test everytime.

A coach with a great reputation(if my memory serves me well it was Christian Thibodeau) here wrote that at a convention he was tested via calipers by the bests and results went from 2 to 12% the same day. So X or Y might get a 15 a 20 a 23% reading by reputable people and add 5% (hiden fat) and 15 might be 28 or 10.
Now you know why he will never get in the pool because that would include the hidden fat.[/quote]

sorry but you just wrote a bunch of shit and are trying to pass it off as knowledge/ fact.

i agree with the overall point that underwater. would be more accurate though.

422

And I say shit like this, NOT because I’m some know-it-all (which I’m clearly not), but because I’ve observed what I’ve seen over the years closely. At the three Night of Champions shows I went to, the competitors and other bodybuilders in attendance would linger outside the front of the venue after the show or work the tables. I remember standing right next to Paul Dillet with his 90’s-bodybuilding-style T-shirt that exposes the traps and upper back and chest. I know I joke about “parting crowds like the Red Sea”, but let me tell you, this is a guy who probably had people moving out of his way sometimes. I remember seeing Dennis Newman, Cutler, Pavel Jablonicky, Dave Palumbo, and Dennis James working the booths.

I also saw Dorian walking around with Weinberger at Roosevelt Field Mall in the late 90’s.

I mention these guys because these guys come from an era of outrageous genetics and actually could pull the “not fat 250 to 300” look because they had so much damn muscle and held their weight so well that it would be so hard for someone to guess their bodyfat. This is why I get hung up a bit when people speak of such numbers of 250 to 300 pound bodyweights and 80 to 100 pound muscle gains.

423

Yolo knows multiple guys who are 10% and 300 pounds? What?

That is Arnold’s size in his prime with and extra 50 pounds of muscle. Seriously?

424

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Yolo knows multiple guys who are 10% and 300 pounds? What?

That is Arnold’s size in his prime with and extra 50 pounds of muscle. Seriously?[/quote]

i said between 280-300

yes that is far bigger than arnold - none look as good as arnold though

they would be competing at around 260lbs, the 2-3 at 300lbs are all over 6ft

the thing is genetics/ muscle bellies/ shape etc all play such a key role

there is a guy who is around 5’9" 260lbs around 10% who DWARFS everyone there including the 300lbers because of these factors

if you go to a BB gym or another board there are plenty of guys who are 280-300lbs and lean

does not mean in a hypothetical contest they would not be destroyed by arnold/ someone else weighing less though

425

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Yolo knows multiple guys who are 10% and 300 pounds? What?

That is Arnold’s size in his prime with and extra 50 pounds of muscle. Seriously?[/quote]

i said between 280-300

yes that is far bigger than arnold - none look as good as arnold though

they would be competing at around 260lbs, the 2-3 at 300lbs are all over 6ft

the thing is genetics/ muscle bellies/ shape etc all play such a key role

there is a guy who is around 5’9" 260lbs around 10% who DWARFS everyone there including the 300lbers because of these factors

if you go to a BB gym or another board there are plenty of guys who are 280-300lbs and lean

does not mean in a hypothetical contest they would not be destroyed by arnold/ someone else weighing less though
[/quote]

I think we have disagreement because we have different estimations and perceptions of bodyfat, visually speaking.

426

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Yolo knows multiple guys who are 10% and 300 pounds? What?

That is Arnold’s size in his prime with and extra 50 pounds of muscle. Seriously?[/quote]

i said between 280-300

yes that is far bigger than arnold - none look as good as arnold though

they would be competing at around 260lbs, the 2-3 at 300lbs are all over 6ft

the thing is genetics/ muscle bellies/ shape etc all play such a key role

there is a guy who is around 5’9" 260lbs around 10% who DWARFS everyone there including the 300lbers because of these factors

if you go to a BB gym or another board there are plenty of guys who are 280-300lbs and lean

does not mean in a hypothetical contest they would not be destroyed by arnold/ someone else weighing less though
[/quote]

I think we have disagreement because we have different estimations and perceptions of bodyfat, visually speaking.
[/quote]

Agree with Brickhead.

260 is still way heavier than Arnold was. Something is off. I didn’t say they would beat him in a bodybuilding contest just that they were much heavier. I don’t see how they could be 30-50 pounds of muscle heavier while at a similar body fat percentage and look really good.

427

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Yolo knows multiple guys who are 10% and 300 pounds? What?

That is Arnold’s size in his prime with and extra 50 pounds of muscle. Seriously?[/quote]

i said between 280-300

yes that is far bigger than arnold - none look as good as arnold though

they would be competing at around 260lbs, the 2-3 at 300lbs are all over 6ft

the thing is genetics/ muscle bellies/ shape etc all play such a key role

there is a guy who is around 5’9" 260lbs around 10% who DWARFS everyone there including the 300lbers because of these factors

if you go to a BB gym or another board there are plenty of guys who are 280-300lbs and lean

does not mean in a hypothetical contest they would not be destroyed by arnold/ someone else weighing less though
[/quote]

I think we have disagreement because we have different estimations and perceptions of bodyfat, visually speaking.
[/quote]

probably

i am guessing you think i am getting the above BFs wildly wrong? maybe i am but i am basing them on full abs lots of thick veins all over level of leaness and calling that 10%.

but i know you are a big fan of BB history right?

JD Dawodu works out at this gym, obvioulsy waaaaay past his prime now though (still huge though lol)

there are guys on a par with him there and he was 5’7" 250 contest 275 offseason back in the early 2000s

again i am NOT saying they look as good as him - just that they are humongous and lean

428

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Yolo knows multiple guys who are 10% and 300 pounds? What?

That is Arnold’s size in his prime with and extra 50 pounds of muscle. Seriously?[/quote]

i said between 280-300

yes that is far bigger than arnold - none look as good as arnold though

they would be competing at around 260lbs, the 2-3 at 300lbs are all over 6ft

the thing is genetics/ muscle bellies/ shape etc all play such a key role

there is a guy who is around 5’9" 260lbs around 10% who DWARFS everyone there including the 300lbers because of these factors

if you go to a BB gym or another board there are plenty of guys who are 280-300lbs and lean

does not mean in a hypothetical contest they would not be destroyed by arnold/ someone else weighing less though
[/quote]

I think we have disagreement because we have different estimations and perceptions of bodyfat, visually speaking.
[/quote]

probably

i am guessing you think i am getting the above BFs wildly wrong? maybe i am but i am basing them on full abs lots of thick veins all over level of leaness and calling that 10%.

but i know you are a big fan of BB history right?

JD Dawodu works out at this gym, obvioulsy waaaaay past his prime now though (still huge though lol)

there are guys on a par with him there and he was 5’7" 250 contest 275 offseason back in the early 2000s

again i am NOT saying they look as good as him - just that they are humongous and lean

[/quote]

I remember JD from the magazines.

Eh, truthfully, who the heck knows what percentages are? I just try to figure it out the best I can. I’ve just grown to think people are way too liberal and write a lot of hocus pocus, and I’ve grown to be skeptical of claims (just my personal view, and I could be wrong).

Like today I was reading the most recent issue of Flex, a popular author wrote he and his clients carry 6% year round. Really, 6% (contest lean) all year round? Another author who has a nutrition business in which a hired coach says on his website that he gained 40 pounds of muscle in a year, naturally. This same author claims to somehow get down to 4% bodyfat at the end of seemingly every diet experimentation he does on himself (in the photos he doesn’t look 4%) and walks around at 5 to 7% all year. This is walking around contest lean all year and a claim of what a natty gains over a whole lifting journey.

429

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Agree with Brickhead.

260 is still way heavier than Arnold was. Something is off. I didn’t say they would beat him in a bodybuilding contest just that they were much heavier. I don’t see how they could be 30-50 pounds of muscle heavier while at a similar body fat percentage and look really good.[/quote]

they do look really good (i mean relative to Arnold one of the greatest BB in all history) they compete in most of the major amateur and alot of the Pro shows all over Europe and the Middle East.

alot of bodybuilders at this level weigh alot more than Arnold - i don’t know why you keep using him as the barometer 6’2" 240 is not that large when talking about high level BB.

Waylander who was on this board has never even competed and is now 280lbs+ and lean at a similar height, and he is also much larger than Arnold.

430

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Yolo knows multiple guys who are 10% and 300 pounds? What?

That is Arnold’s size in his prime with and extra 50 pounds of muscle. Seriously?[/quote]

i said between 280-300

yes that is far bigger than arnold - none look as good as arnold though

they would be competing at around 260lbs, the 2-3 at 300lbs are all over 6ft

the thing is genetics/ muscle bellies/ shape etc all play such a key role

there is a guy who is around 5’9" 260lbs around 10% who DWARFS everyone there including the 300lbers because of these factors

if you go to a BB gym or another board there are plenty of guys who are 280-300lbs and lean

does not mean in a hypothetical contest they would not be destroyed by arnold/ someone else weighing less though
[/quote]

I think we have disagreement because we have different estimations and perceptions of bodyfat, visually speaking.
[/quote]

probably

i am guessing you think i am getting the above BFs wildly wrong? maybe i am but i am basing them on full abs lots of thick veins all over level of leaness and calling that 10%.

but i know you are a big fan of BB history right?

JD Dawodu works out at this gym, obvioulsy waaaaay past his prime now though (still huge though lol)

there are guys on a par with him there and he was 5’7" 250 contest 275 offseason back in the early 2000s

again i am NOT saying they look as good as him - just that they are humongous and lean

[/quote]

I remember JD from the magazines.

Eh, truthfully, who the heck knows what percentages are? I just try to figure it out the best I can. I’ve just grown to think people are way too liberal and write a lot of hocus pocus, and I’ve grown to be skeptical of claims (just my personal view, and I could be wrong).

Like today I was reading the most recent issue of Flex, a popular author wrote he and his clients carry 6% year round. Really, 6% (contest lean) all year round? Another author who has a nutrition business in which a hired coach says on his website that he gained 40 pounds of muscle in a year, naturally. This same author claims to somehow get down to 4% bodyfat at the end of seemingly every diet experimentation he does on himself (in the photos he doesn’t look 4%) and walks around at 5 to 7% all year. This is walking around contest lean all year and a claim of what a natty gains over a whole lifting journey. [/quote]

sure i agree with that completely

i probably am being too liberal

I read an interview once about David Beckham. He said he was in rehab with an injury trying to get fit for a tournament. He felt in the tournament he was quite sluggish. Looking back he said in the 2-3 month of rehab he did more weight training than usual and gained 15lbs of pure muscle (seemingly by accident). The whole thing just made my head hurt and made no sense.

I have also met a ton of untrained slim people tell me their BF is 6% - i just keep it moving and change the subject lol.

431

[quote]yolo84 wrote:
I read an interview once about David Beckham. He said he was in rehab with an injury trying to get fit for a tournament. He felt in the tournament he was quite sluggish. Looking back he said in the 2-3 month of rehab he did more weight training than usual and gained 15lbs of pure muscle (seemingly by accident). The whole thing just made my head hurt and made no sense.

I have also met a ton of untrained slim people tell me their BF is 6% - i just keep it moving and change the subject lol. [/quote]

Best story I ever heard was Tom Cruise gaining “25 lbs of muscle just in his arms” from sword practice while filming The Last Samurai.

Unless you’re seriously around individuals who are insanely lean (ie. contest competitors), or are frequently measured in an accepted, fairly accurate manner, I find that most people really don’t have a very accurate concept of what different bf%s really look like.

It’s not a conscious thing mind you, it’s just that most people have no need of that degree of perception. “I look great” in the mirror is quite satisfying. Or perhaps “Joe Bob says I look about 10-15%” gets some people through the day repeating the figure to anyone who’ll listen. Heck, even competitive BBers don’t usually bother getting gauged simply because the # is really irrelevant to their goals.

The point is, #s get battered around, and a lot of people don’t have the comparative visual image to really make assessments. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s probably why there’s so much crap always flying back and forth.

S

432

610×705 117 KB

I like this.

433

That’s a great pic for general reference, but people should also keep in mind that parts of the body lean up at different rates (anyone who has ever dieted down will attest to this individual phenomena). You can have someone sporting some abs, yet there chest may still appear soft and not “squared off”.

Also, with the often quoted ‘abs coming in’, realize that people who have thicker abdominal development will give that appearance much sooner than someone with naturally shallow abs, even if they have a lower percentage of bodyfat.

S

434

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I asked where these numbers are coming from that Brick has posted ad nauseum.[/quote]

Source: Top natural bodybuilders who haven’t gained a damn pound of muscle after a decade of training.

[quote]

After ten pages, I still don’t see that. I just see people upset because I asked for the source of those specific limits. [/quote]

Source: Top natural bodybuilders.

[quote]

Where is this “80lb limit” coming from? Where is this “15 year limit” coming from? [/quote]

I have no clue where it’s coming from and who made it up. Many rational people believe a natty can gain about 40 to 50 pounds of muscle. They also think gains are negligible at the five year mark and on, if everything has been and is being done right.

[quote]

Why are people more worried about me asking where the numbers are from rather than why Brick can post those without anyone else questioning it?[/quote]

I think it’s because through their observation or knowledge of bodybuilding, they haven’t seen anyone who gained 80 pounds naturally, nor are they seeing highly experienced natties gaining appreciable amounts of muscle every year after a decade of training.

435

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
That’s a great pic for general reference, but people should also keep in mind that parts of the body lean up at different rates (anyone who has ever dieted down will attest to this individual phenomena). You can have someone sporting some abs, yet there chest may still appear soft and not “squared off”.

Also, with the often quoted ‘abs coming in’, realize that people who have thicker abdominal development will give that appearance much sooner than someone with naturally shallow abs, even if they have a lower percentage of bodyfat.

S[/quote]

I agree with the above. I like they photo as a base.

Yolo, I used Arnold as a reference because virtually everyone who is into lifting weights knows what he looks like. That was my only reasoning.

436

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
I like this. [/quote]

not saying this entirely accurate. but going by this your prediction of x being 25% bodyfat looks almost spot on.

437

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
I have lost many pics recently from my computer because it broke and I don’t have a smart phone and I’m not the biggest picture taker, but here’s one I have (yeah, it’s not shirtless). X, you can say I look worse all you want. I don’t look terrible. And at least I can wear a pair of Under Armor which some people think looks good on me. [/quote]
you > X and it’s a landslide. At least you have some quads lol.
[/quote]

I didn’t think my quads were non-existant even with the injuries.

But yes, Brick has nice quads.[/quote]

??? i dont get you man. your a BIG dude, you have a very good build, i would love to look like you.

nobody is saying you have not built a way above average head turning physique.

if you really think that is the points being debated here, and every other shit storm you are part of…

waitaminute, of course you do, this is just how you have fun f-ing with people. lol
[/quote]

Then what is being debated? I asked very specific questions. This thread isn’t about what you think of me…yet that is all you seem to want to talk about in every thread.

Why is it OK to tell someone like Kingbeef as a newb that he won’t reach a level that he already recahed?

Why are you ok with this?[/quote]

haha, do you enven hear yourself or go back and look at how ridiculous your posts are? everyone here notices it, but you, but you sit back and whine “why me”

lol

you are either clinically insane or the best troll ever. i vote the latter.

438

[quote]Caltene wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
This site would be better off if the professor x detractors would simply place him on ignore and vice versa.

If BrownDisaster (although he cracks me up) SuperSayin, DoubleDuece, BrickHead, Zraw, Steven Alex and a few others who Surely I am forgetting would just place Professor X on ignore and he did the same in return this forum would be WAY better off.[/quote]

What needs to happen is for T-Nation mods(if they even have any) to ban ProfX. When one guy causes that much trouble, the ignore button isn’t enough.[/quote]

cant disagree.

he is the center of 90% of this bullshit. the only problem i have with your idea smashingweights, is why do people like you come out and tell the people firing back at X to take the higher road, and nobody jumps on his case to do the same?

does he get a pass because he has been here for 10 plus years being an ass for so long that its OK?

why should everybody else strive to a higher ideal when he does not?

fuck hm…he deserves the blow back. and i still believe this is all just entertainment to him. me too at this point.

439

[quote]Caltene wrote:
What needs to happen is for T-Nation mods(if they even have any) to ban ProfX. When one guy causes that much trouble, the ignore button isn’t enough.[/quote]
Many that are banned deserve to post, and some that post deserve a ban. Can you give it to them, Caltene? Do not be too eager to deal out bans in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Professor X has some part to play, for good or ill, before this is over.

440

hahahah I see what you did there