Lifting and Protein

Training
61

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

there are often rumours about people using IVs during the night too[/quote]

that shit is nutz[/quote]

There was actually a fad in the late 80’s of waking up at night for that extra meal. That was back when “6 meals a day” was the staple for anyone in any gym.[/quote]
Bodyopus diet was that way by Dan Duchaine.

I did it back in the mid 90’s would wake up every 2 hours in the night to get in good carbs. [/quote]

Carbs, really? What was the proposed benefit for that? I can understand protein, but not carbs. Did it work for you? I would imagine the loss of sleep having a bigger impact on progress than the extra meal.

62

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]setto222 wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:
DOn’t you think that much protein at one time is a bit unnecessary? [/quote]
Why?[/quote]

I have doubts about the body’s ability to utilize that much at once. I haven’t once, since I started reading this site, seen anyone ever recommend anything close to this for a single serving.

[/quote]
As a medical guy who has lifted a little in life, I will say that I have heard about this discussion where stats and stuff are thrown out there about how much the body can utilize at once.

My opinion is that the transient time from ingestion to defecation varies of course. However it does take some time, your GI system has the ability to absorb nutrients really from the mouth to the rectum. Meaning if your body needed more protein to rebuild damaged tissue it has the ability to absorb it through the large intestine. Thus large boluses of protein ingested at say 7 am basically has the whole day to be utilized, of course there is not 100% utilization. But I will say most of the larger land mammals that lift eat a lot of protein so I will just leave it at that. [/quote]

This.

It’s also super hard to over-eat protein. Shotgun approach tends to work best. I think the number being thrown around these days for athletes is 01.2-1.8g/kg but really it’s so dependent on a number of factors that you might as well just cram it down your face-hole all the time just to be safe![/quote]

Explain “hard to over-eat”. I wasn’t really arguing whether or not it could be done. Obviously you can eat more protein than you need. The effectiveness of the over-eating is what I’m trying to hash out.

Just because you CAN shove a lot of protein down your throat, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good idea to do it in only 1 or 2 sittings.

I take it you think 140g in 1 sitting isn’t more than necessary? Do you feel it will all be put to use? Do you feel that the more you intake, the more muscle you will automatically be able to build/repair? Does the scale keep sliding up?[/quote]

Oh gosh, I find it’s way excessive! lol I can see reading back to my post that didn’t come off the way I wanted it to. Shove it in your face, but in moderation. You won’t absorb a lot of it but protein is used for so many things in the body that it’s hard for it not to be used once absorbed. Hair, nails, skin blah blah blah.

It also satiates you. Would be hard to find many people that can eat 140g of protein in one sitting without force feeding themselves or just being very large individuals. So many people “stuffing their face” would be hard pressed to get near 140g.

63

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

there are often rumours about people using IVs during the night too[/quote]

that shit is nutz[/quote]

There was actually a fad in the late 80’s of waking up at night for that extra meal. That was back when “6 meals a day” was the staple for anyone in any gym.[/quote]
Bodyopus diet was that way by Dan Duchaine.

I did it back in the mid 90’s would wake up every 2 hours in the night to get in good carbs. [/quote]

Carbs, really? What was the proposed benefit for that? I can understand protein, but not carbs. Did it work for you? I would imagine the loss of sleep having a bigger impact on progress than the extra meal.[/quote]

Yep basically Mon-Fri you ingested 0 carbs a day, you did 3 workouts and on Friday you did a FULL BODY every body part to failure workout, immediately after you started “carbing” up. Every two hours you ingested a certain amount of certain carbs. I still have the book at home somewhere. Yes I dropped a lot of BF%

64

[quote]setto222 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]setto222 wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:
DOn’t you think that much protein at one time is a bit unnecessary? [/quote]
Why?[/quote]

I have doubts about the body’s ability to utilize that much at once. I haven’t once, since I started reading this site, seen anyone ever recommend anything close to this for a single serving.

[/quote]
As a medical guy who has lifted a little in life, I will say that I have heard about this discussion where stats and stuff are thrown out there about how much the body can utilize at once.

My opinion is that the transient time from ingestion to defecation varies of course. However it does take some time, your GI system has the ability to absorb nutrients really from the mouth to the rectum. Meaning if your body needed more protein to rebuild damaged tissue it has the ability to absorb it through the large intestine. Thus large boluses of protein ingested at say 7 am basically has the whole day to be utilized, of course there is not 100% utilization. But I will say most of the larger land mammals that lift eat a lot of protein so I will just leave it at that. [/quote]

This.

It’s also super hard to over-eat protein. Shotgun approach tends to work best. I think the number being thrown around these days for athletes is 01.2-1.8g/kg but really it’s so dependent on a number of factors that you might as well just cram it down your face-hole all the time just to be safe![/quote]

Explain “hard to over-eat”. I wasn’t really arguing whether or not it could be done. Obviously you can eat more protein than you need. The effectiveness of the over-eating is what I’m trying to hash out.

Just because you CAN shove a lot of protein down your throat, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good idea to do it in only 1 or 2 sittings.

I take it you think 140g in 1 sitting isn’t more than necessary? Do you feel it will all be put to use? Do you feel that the more you intake, the more muscle you will automatically be able to build/repair? Does the scale keep sliding up?[/quote]

Oh gosh, I find it’s way excessive! lol I can see reading back to my post that didn’t come off the way I wanted it to. Shove it in your face, but in moderation. You won’t absorb a lot of it but protein is used for so many things in the body that it’s hard for it not to be used once absorbed. Hair, nails, skin blah blah blah.

It also satiates you. Would be hard to find many people that can eat 140g of protein in one sitting without force feeding themselves or just being very large individuals. So many people “stuffing their face” would be hard pressed to get near 140g.[/quote]

Having read through more of the thread, it seems some of my ideology is outdated.

65

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

there are often rumours about people using IVs during the night too[/quote]

that shit is nutz[/quote]

There was actually a fad in the late 80’s of waking up at night for that extra meal. That was back when “6 meals a day” was the staple for anyone in any gym.[/quote]
Bodyopus diet was that way by Dan Duchaine.

I did it back in the mid 90’s would wake up every 2 hours in the night to get in good carbs. [/quote]

Carbs, really? What was the proposed benefit for that? I can understand protein, but not carbs. Did it work for you? I would imagine the loss of sleep having a bigger impact on progress than the extra meal.[/quote]

Yep basically Mon-Fri you ingested 0 carbs a day, you did 3 workouts and on Friday you did a FULL BODY every body part to failure workout, immediately after you started “carbing” up. Every two hours you ingested a certain amount of certain carbs. I still have the book at home somewhere. Yes I dropped a lot of BF%[/quote]

Wow, interesting. Did you gain LBM, or is this specifically a fat loss program?

Edit: As far as the meals structure, it seems a bit like the Anabolic Diet, maybe with a bit of Carb Back-Loading.

66

[quote]setto222 wrote:
Having read through more of the thread, it seems some of my ideology is outdated. [/quote]

Meaning what, exactly?

67

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

there are often rumours about people using IVs during the night too[/quote]

that shit is nutz[/quote]

There was actually a fad in the late 80’s of waking up at night for that extra meal. That was back when “6 meals a day” was the staple for anyone in any gym.[/quote]
Bodyopus diet was that way by Dan Duchaine.

I did it back in the mid 90’s would wake up every 2 hours in the night to get in good carbs. [/quote]

Carbs, really? What was the proposed benefit for that? I can understand protein, but not carbs. Did it work for you? I would imagine the loss of sleep having a bigger impact on progress than the extra meal.[/quote]

Yep basically Mon-Fri you ingested 0 carbs a day, you did 3 workouts and on Friday you did a FULL BODY every body part to failure workout, immediately after you started “carbing” up. Every two hours you ingested a certain amount of certain carbs. I still have the book at home somewhere. Yes I dropped a lot of BF%[/quote]

Wow, interesting. Did you gain LBM, or is this specifically a fat loss program?[/quote]
Hard to tell, Doogie (member on here) and I did it for the Body for Life challenge from Muscle Media. We were doing it with calipers ourself, so who knows. That has been almost 16-17 years ago. First and only time in my life I had visible abs though.

Also only time I have blacked out during a workout. It was pretty intense.

68

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

there are often rumours about people using IVs during the night too[/quote]

that shit is nutz[/quote]

There was actually a fad in the late 80’s of waking up at night for that extra meal. That was back when “6 meals a day” was the staple for anyone in any gym.[/quote]
Bodyopus diet was that way by Dan Duchaine.

I did it back in the mid 90’s would wake up every 2 hours in the night to get in good carbs. [/quote]

Carbs, really? What was the proposed benefit for that? I can understand protein, but not carbs. Did it work for you? I would imagine the loss of sleep having a bigger impact on progress than the extra meal.[/quote]

Yep basically Mon-Fri you ingested 0 carbs a day, you did 3 workouts and on Friday you did a FULL BODY every body part to failure workout, immediately after you started “carbing” up. Every two hours you ingested a certain amount of certain carbs. I still have the book at home somewhere. Yes I dropped a lot of BF%[/quote]

Wow, interesting. Did you gain LBM, or is this specifically a fat loss program?[/quote]
Hard to tell, Doogie (member on here) and I did it for the Body for Life challenge from Muscle Media. We were doing it with calipers ourself, so who knows. That has been almost 16-17 years ago. First and only time in my life I had visible abs though.

Also only time I have blacked out during a workout. It was pretty intense.[/quote]

Damn. Was the black-out on Friday?

Would you do it again? ; )

69

Hasn’t Layne Norton talked about the refractory response of protein and suggested that while meal frequency may not matter all that much for cutting (LeanGains, Warrior Diet, etc), you may miss out on maximizing protein synthesis when gaining by eating either too little (or many) meals? Alan Aragon actually said himself: “Total protein is the cake. Timing is the icing. Plenty of damn good cakes can be made without icing. Timing dips largely into hypothetical realms in the scenario of someone getting their protein dosing over the course of 3 meals per day or more. There are other odd hypothetical stuff where meal frequency can be suboptimally high & cause protein synthesis to become refractory, but this has not been demonstrated definitively, or to a practical degree.”

At the end of the day it comes down to balancing what is optimal but also what is practical and what works best with someone’s eating habits.

Here’s a link: Optimal Protein Intake And Meal Frequency To Support Maximal Protein …

70

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

there are often rumours about people using IVs during the night too[/quote]

that shit is nutz[/quote]

There was actually a fad in the late 80’s of waking up at night for that extra meal. That was back when “6 meals a day” was the staple for anyone in any gym.[/quote]
Bodyopus diet was that way by Dan Duchaine.

I did it back in the mid 90’s would wake up every 2 hours in the night to get in good carbs. [/quote]

Carbs, really? What was the proposed benefit for that? I can understand protein, but not carbs. Did it work for you? I would imagine the loss of sleep having a bigger impact on progress than the extra meal.[/quote]

Yep basically Mon-Fri you ingested 0 carbs a day, you did 3 workouts and on Friday you did a FULL BODY every body part to failure workout, immediately after you started “carbing” up. Every two hours you ingested a certain amount of certain carbs. I still have the book at home somewhere. Yes I dropped a lot of BF%[/quote]

Wow, interesting. Did you gain LBM, or is this specifically a fat loss program?[/quote]
Hard to tell, Doogie (member on here) and I did it for the Body for Life challenge from Muscle Media. We were doing it with calipers ourself, so who knows. That has been almost 16-17 years ago. First and only time in my life I had visible abs though.

Also only time I have blacked out during a workout. It was pretty intense.[/quote]

Damn. Was the black-out on Friday?

Would you do it again? ; )[/quote]
Yep on Friday, that was the worst fucking workout I have ever done. The body cramps you get with this was out there.

Doogie and I have discussed that often believe it or not.

Dont know honestly.

I just did a 500 kcal a day with HCG injection daily diet for 36 days and lost 36 pounds.

So I kind of do crazy shit even now.

71

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

there are often rumours about people using IVs during the night too[/quote]

that shit is nutz[/quote]

There was actually a fad in the late 80’s of waking up at night for that extra meal. That was back when “6 meals a day” was the staple for anyone in any gym.[/quote]
Bodyopus diet was that way by Dan Duchaine.

I did it back in the mid 90’s would wake up every 2 hours in the night to get in good carbs. [/quote]

Carbs, really? What was the proposed benefit for that? I can understand protein, but not carbs. Did it work for you? I would imagine the loss of sleep having a bigger impact on progress than the extra meal.[/quote]

Yep basically Mon-Fri you ingested 0 carbs a day, you did 3 workouts and on Friday you did a FULL BODY every body part to failure workout, immediately after you started “carbing” up. Every two hours you ingested a certain amount of certain carbs. I still have the book at home somewhere. Yes I dropped a lot of BF%[/quote]

Wow, interesting. Did you gain LBM, or is this specifically a fat loss program?[/quote]
Hard to tell, Doogie (member on here) and I did it for the Body for Life challenge from Muscle Media. We were doing it with calipers ourself, so who knows. That has been almost 16-17 years ago. First and only time in my life I had visible abs though.

Also only time I have blacked out during a workout. It was pretty intense.[/quote]

Damn. Was the black-out on Friday?

Would you do it again? ; )[/quote]
Yep on Friday, that was the worst fucking workout I have ever done. The body cramps you get with this was out there.

Doogie and I have discussed that often believe it or not.

Dont know honestly.

I just did a 500 kcal a day with HCG injection daily diet for 36 days and lost 36 pounds.

So I kind of do crazy shit even now. [/quote]

Dude, 36 lbs in just over a month is awesome! How was your strength when you finished?

72

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

there are often rumours about people using IVs during the night too[/quote]

that shit is nutz[/quote]

There was actually a fad in the late 80’s of waking up at night for that extra meal. That was back when “6 meals a day” was the staple for anyone in any gym.[/quote]
Bodyopus diet was that way by Dan Duchaine.

I did it back in the mid 90’s would wake up every 2 hours in the night to get in good carbs. [/quote]

Carbs, really? What was the proposed benefit for that? I can understand protein, but not carbs. Did it work for you? I would imagine the loss of sleep having a bigger impact on progress than the extra meal.[/quote]

Yep basically Mon-Fri you ingested 0 carbs a day, you did 3 workouts and on Friday you did a FULL BODY every body part to failure workout, immediately after you started “carbing” up. Every two hours you ingested a certain amount of certain carbs. I still have the book at home somewhere. Yes I dropped a lot of BF%[/quote]

Wow, interesting. Did you gain LBM, or is this specifically a fat loss program?[/quote]
Hard to tell, Doogie (member on here) and I did it for the Body for Life challenge from Muscle Media. We were doing it with calipers ourself, so who knows. That has been almost 16-17 years ago. First and only time in my life I had visible abs though.

Also only time I have blacked out during a workout. It was pretty intense.[/quote]

Damn. Was the black-out on Friday?

Would you do it again? ; )[/quote]
Yep on Friday, that was the worst fucking workout I have ever done. The body cramps you get with this was out there.

Doogie and I have discussed that often believe it or not.

Dont know honestly.

I just did a 500 kcal a day with HCG injection daily diet for 36 days and lost 36 pounds.

So I kind of do crazy shit even now. [/quote]

Dude, 36 lbs in just over a month is awesome! How was your strength when you finished?

[/quote]
Like a 15 year old anorexic girl on crack

But it only took a couple months to get it back.

73

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

Like a 15 year old anorexic girl on crack

But it only took a couple months to get it back.[/quote]

Haha!

74

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]setto222 wrote:
Having read through more of the thread, it seems some of my ideology is outdated. [/quote]

Meaning what, exactly?[/quote]

Meaning I’m out of my league. I was under the impression that protein absorption would be the limiting factor in a 140g meal but it seems I’m wrong. Also after doing some research the whole calories in - calories out deal seems to be squashing my “stuff your face approach” but that’s a whole other topic.

75

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
…However it does take some time, your GI system has the ability to absorb nutrients really from the mouth to the rectum. [/quote]

Mouth to rectum, huh?

76

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
…However it does take some time, your GI system has the ability to absorb nutrients really from the mouth to the rectum. [/quote]

Mouth to rectum, huh?[/quote]

Yeah, basically your mucus membra–

wait…

oh. #humancentipede

77

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Hasn’t Layne Norton talked about the refractory response of protein and suggested that while meal frequency may not matter all that much for cutting (LeanGains, Warrior Diet, etc), you may miss out on maximizing protein synthesis when gaining by eating either too little (or many) meals? Alan Aragon actually said himself: “Total protein is the cake. Timing is the icing. Plenty of damn good cakes can be made without icing. Timing dips largely into hypothetical realms in the scenario of someone getting their protein dosing over the course of 3 meals per day or more. There are other odd hypothetical stuff where meal frequency can be suboptimally high & cause protein synthesis to become refractory, but this has not been demonstrated definitively, or to a practical degree.”

At the end of the day it comes down to balancing what is optimal but also what is practical and what works best with someone’s eating habits.

Here’s a link (hopefully it stays, it is not a competing website): Optimal Protein Intake And Meal Frequency To Support Maximal Protein …

If the link doesn’t stay, just search “Layne Norton meal frequency”. [/quote]

So, moderate protein intake at least 4-6 hours apart. In the general recommendations, his highest dose is around 50g, coming from whole foods, while the protein supp is around 33g.

Both seem a bit low to me maybe, depending on BW. Should the assumption be made that a super dose would cause an elevation in leucine to remain too long for the next meal to be beneficial? Or am I not reading it right?

78

One thing does confuse me though. He suggests taking a Leucine supplement between meals to optimize MPS. Wouldn’t that effectively close the 4-6 hour window and keep levels elevated?

79

[quote]cueball wrote:
One thing does confuse me though. He suggests taking a Leucine supplement between meals to optimize MPS. Wouldn’t that effectively close the 4-6 hour window and keep levels elevated?[/quote]

Creating a supra-physiological rise in plasma AA levels (such as using leucine or MAG-10 pulses between meals) may overcome the refractory response. We know leucine/MAG-10 would be rapidly digested and get into the bloodstream fast, which would elevate plasma AA levels beyond the meal-induced plateau.

So pulsing either 1) enhances the anabolic response or 2) overcomes the refractory response.

80

I’ve eaten 4 meals a day with 30-40g protein and taken 30g of whey after working out and never had a problem putting on muscle. I’m 5’10 195.