[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Em, just want to jump in here for a sec. You yourself just said that you would disqualify Orion and myself purely based on our sexual pasts. So if (hypothetically of course) you and I met as strangers, hit it off, and then over the course of the courtship it came out that I was (or used to be) promiscuous, you have stated several times that it would be a no go for you.
But then you say that a person’s past behavior is not necessarily an accurate assessment of there current level of understanding, cuz people grow and change…
And then you bust Orion’s balls because he wants a woman who hasn’t ridden the carousel, but that’s the same thing that YOU require of a mate…
Not a judgement, just an observation.
[/quote]Hi AC. The problem I have with it isn’t as much the number of women but what I view as screaming hypocrisy. I don’t ask guys about their sexual pasts, but I assume that if the numbers were in the many hundreds I would be aware of it. I think it’s absurd to look for someone who exemplifies a quality you yourself do not value enough to cultivate.
[/quote]
I don’t rack those numbers anymore. I am mainly focused on my career at this point. I’m in a relationship at the moment. But when I’m not, it’s not like I need a calendar or spreadsheet to keep track of da bitches (like I used to). Also, I don’t discuss my sexual history or allude to it.[quote]
I absolutely do believe in change and growth. It is probably my most deeply held value. However, here we are talking about current behavior in the men in question (players looking for a “good girl”), not historic behavior (a troubled girl making the mistake of looking for love in sex, then pulling it together and seeking something more). You’ve talked about your criminal history being problematic for you in finding women - that wouldn’t bother me if all the other elements matched. You’re not that guy anymore. The promiscuity would be a problem because you ARE that guy. And that guy has a different moral code than me. He’s willing to blatantly manipulate because his core belief is that it’s a game and the game is stacked and this is his tool set and why not use it. [quote]
[/quote] My “moral code” is not that of a “player”. I don’t lie and I don’t lead anyone on. I set a high standard for who I choose to spend my time with. As I get older, I realize that my most valuable commodity is TIME, so I don’t like to waste it. And as I alluded to above, I’m really not very promiscuous anymore, preferring quality over quantity these days. I don’t view relationships as a game. I DO have an impressive set of social tools at my disposal, and I “see the matrix” of attraction/courtship better than most, but that’s not something I can control… I mean if there are three good looking women in the room and two of them are giving me good body language and the third one isn’t, OF COURSE I’m going to approach the third one! LOL I mean, I KNOW that it will just increase the attraction in the other two and that’s just plain good strategy. Plus I have a pretty good chance of attracting the third one and it’s more of a challenge. But that’s dealing with strangers with no emotional investment… For all I know they could all be crazy. Until I’ve screened them, why shouldn’t I increase my chances of tipping the interaction in my favor?
As for my criminal history, it really doesn’t impact me much anymore. It’s been 20 years and I’m very successful now. In fact, it’s kind of like a good “war story” these days.
Also, I differ from Orion in my standard of what constitutes “the carousel”. I’m not particularly fixated on any specific “number”. I can pretty much tell if a girl has had a metric shit ton of dicks up in her which is not what I’m looking for, but neither do I disqualify her if she’s had more than two boyfriends. Know what I mean? I think if I judge her character and actions to be in alignment with what I want, then I tend to give the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise I WOULD be a hypocrite. [quote]
I don’t think that you and Orion want very different things (happiness with a partner they can trust, who will be faithful and who is a “catch”)
That’s pretty much what ALL people want.
[/quote]I agree. I only suggest that he’s going the wrong way for achieving it. You, maybe not. You’ve changed in the several years we’ve all been here now. Of course you’re posting less and your style has polished, so maybe not. But to me you sound less black and white about the matter, and much more content in general. There’s a big difference between happiness and pleasure. I’m not sure active players know the difference. [quote]
[/quote]
You speak of happiness and pleasure and I find both of those things to be temporary. The “state” that I seek is “durable fulfillment”. I know that if I follow MY path and meet the goals in Life that I’ve set for myself, I’ll continue to maintain that state. Happiness and pleasure are simply byproducts of a well-lived life. And I’m living pretty well these days. [quote]
Orion (and I to a slightly lesser extent) view the world very pragmatically. We are both around the same age and have had the gift of learning a thing or two about the fairer sex - both the good and the bad. We both recognize that we live in a society where women can ruin a man financially through marriage/divorce (something I’ve experienced first hand). We both see what the current messages society/media is sending to women, and to people in general and to be perfectly frank, it’s against men and masculine values for the most part.
Orion and I simply point out the fact that finding an attractive woman, who has her shit together and has not been “brainwashed” by the bullshit is a tall order - especially at our age. You have, historically, pointed out that you have plenty of friends who are well adjusted, happily married, etc… but you also have the opposite extreme within your circle as well. And you are uniquly qualified (by your education/profession) to screen people quickly and accurately so you adjust your circle according to that set of standards. When Orion and I were in our twenties, we didn’t have the benefit of that perspective, did we? So why do you judge us for using the only real tools we have at our disposal for screening women: our experience and intellect?
[/quote]I didn’t have those skills in my twenties any more than you did. Let me refresh - mother left, dropped out of high school and ran away at 16. I did the same thing you’ve done, which was to embark on a quest to understand myself and the world around me. My research was focused largely on what is a good family and how does one get one, but also on how to be a contented woman and what makes men men. So I read all of the conservative books as well as the historic feminist stuff, and novel after novel. When I went back to school I was already exceptionally well read on these matters, as you are. TNation is another source of information for me, a locker room I get to sit in the corner of and occasionally ask questions. Orion (this is rude as hell, talking about him this way, but since he “amen’d” your post about him I’ll do it) seems to focus much of his research on the problem with women and the world, rather than finding ways to be happy (as opposed to pleasured). You’ve been increasing your self-esteem, he’s been fostering his bitterness. Or at least it appears that way from here.
[/quote]Everyone is at where they’re at. I don’t know Orion well enough to make any kind of judgements about the way he approaches his relationships or to comment on if his approach is “right”. He’s a grown man and it works for him. He does sometimes communicate some anger and bitterness, but I’ve also done the same. I DO know that he has a VERY good understanding of the true nature of MOST women and MOST relationships. And I share in his assessment/apathy of the current state of affairs in the “battle of the sexes” (if I can generically use that term).[quote]
My friend set - we’re just alike in this regard. I don’t screen out failures (and luckily they haven’t screened me out!). But we’re relationship-focused women. My broader social circle includes women who don’t need men/home to the degree that I do, but may be more alike to me in terms of athletic interests.[quote]
I do think that much of my paradigm about women/relationships has been shaped by my experiences, both the good and the bad as I’m sure Orion’s has. I think we both carry a certain degree of anger about some of those experiences and how the current laws/society has enabled the behavior and outcomes we experienced. Is it not understandable that a 40 year old man with assets be concerned about the risks associated with choosing a partner?
Put your self in our shoes: At our age, many of the single women are
-divorced with kids (we don’t want to raise another man’s kid - a personal choice that’s perfectly valid, but not for everyone)
-gold diggers (we don’t want to be “loved” for just our money and our ability to provide)
-sluts (we don’t want to have to strap a board across our ass when we have sex or catch a disease)
-crazy (who wants to deal with crazy?)
-Attention whores (we don’t want to deal with the drama)
-Etc… I could keep going
But suffice it to say, the pickings of AVAILABLE women of QUALITY are slim. And neither of us will be a monk while we’re looking for someone compatible, so we lower the standard and reap the consequences of that, which further reinforces our original position.
But underneath it all, and I suspect you know this, is that we want an IDEAL. Wanting an ideal comes from a very positive place. A place of self worth and self respect. People have asked both Orion and myself if we have self esteem issues of if we just “hate all women” - that’s FAR from the case. I know for myself that I can be one of the most loving and romantic people out there for the right woman. And I’ve had those relationships. Sometimes they just don’t work out for various reasons and sometimes they end badly. The emotions of love and hate are not very far apart and oftentimes get confused. And when they do, the roller coaster happens.
I will acknowledge that Orion has often positioned himself as your “online nemesis” and that your reactions feed right into that dynamic, but you must see that EVERYTHING he’s pointing out isn’t THAT different from some of your experiences and friendships. Or that sometimes your position comes from a place of being reactive and politically correct rather than from what you’ve seen in the world as reality. You’ve self admittedly made relationship choices that could have been better, or which lasted too long, but in the same breath rail against views that would prevent US from falling over those same obstacles…
Like I said, not a judgement, just an observation. And I think you and Orion are closer to an “ideal relationship scenario” than you might think. [/quote]
I don’t think I ever speak from a place of political correctness for its own sake, because I don’t value ideas unless I believe them. I’ve made poor relationship choices, yes. Everyone does. What I don’t do is decide because I’ve been hurt that the deck is stacked and that society fosters and encourages just this very thing and use it to justify careless behavior toward the next man. And I could. Tim cheated? Well, so did a past president of the United States and no one cared and he’s now beloved and his wife is a senator! It’s the motherfucking patriarchy, at it again!!!
I could use men; I seem to have that option. I don’t because it runs contrary to my moral code, but also - and this is the crux of the matter in my debates with orion - because it runs contrary to my GOAL, which is to have a clean and joyous relationship built on care and trust.
I see orion’s behavior and mindset as self-defeating. And again, I have a problem with the hypocrisy. You guys ARE the carousel. And that bothers me for all the girls and women who ride it thinking you’re a prospective mate, but who are instead one step closer to being the women you disdain (using “you” generally here, not you specifically). [/quote]I hope you’re not talking about me because I don’t lie and I have a goal that every woman I have a relationship with, however brief, is better off for having known me. [quote] I have to put these girls and women back together! They’re hurt. It hurts me.
[/quote]You identify with their victim mentality, even though you’ve worked past yours. How is it MY fault that women are attracted to tall, dark, handsome, well-built, successful, intelligent, witty, well-hung men with a sense of adventure and broad range of experience who has the ability to trigger positive emotions in them AND who doesn’t lie? If I were a chick I’D fuck me! Also, I believe I’ve EARNED (well, earned everything but the well-hung - that’s just lucky) every single attribute I listed with hard work, blood sweat and some tears, so cry me a river about them being “hurt” because they made bad decisions or assumptions and fell in love with someone who told them from the beginning he was unavailable for a long term commitment.[quote]
However, on the up-side, I have become a most excellent behind-the-scenes wingman for men on my caseload who need to find a woman. Although none of them have yet. Still, I’m hopeful that my pickup artistry will have good results here soon.[/quote]
If you ever make it to DC, we’ll put your wing man skillz to the test! LOL
