[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
Am I doomed to attract pyscho women?
[/quote]
Yes.
But you don’t have to enter a relationship with them just because they’re attracted to you. You have some choice in the matter. A better question to ask is, “Why do I keep repeating the same patterns in my relationships?”
[/quote]
Truth.
Also, stop letting your dick make the decisions if you want a lasting relationship.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Your dream goes into the symbolic realm, which I don’t know much about. What do you think it represents?
[/quote]
I have no idea, I place no stock in dreams at all. I just thought it was a coincidence you and I both had dreams about selling houses.
Two nights ago I had a dream about my ex as well.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]One of the sentences I like the most is “At first I thought you were an asshole, but…”, because, sex.
If I hear that I know that my work is practically done.[/quote]
I said that to my ex-husband. It turns out he WAS kind of an asshole. I read him correctly.
[/quote]
First, you did the nasty with him. ( I hope, who knows these days).
Second, there is the caring and the uncaring asshole.
The asshole that cares kills the tingles, the asshole that barely notices you, thats the asshole that creates the tingles.
If you go out of your way to be mean to a woman that accomplishes nothing. [/quote]
Every single guy I’ve been involved with has made very clear his interest. (We’ve been over the unlikelihood that I would even notice anyone who didn’t.)
I think in the past I’ve made two mistakes: one is to mistake aggression for masculine strength, which I seek as a balance to my feminine strength, and the other is to imagine that someone else’s aggression could keep me safe while my sunnier disposition could keep them happy. Neither turned out to be true, of course, though my sunny disposition, once gone, seems to be missed. (Two emails from Tim last week. I’m on the verge of being mean.)
I now believe that genuine strength, male or female, is quiet and assured rather than hinting of combativeness (the asshole thing).
Strength - physical, moral, intellectual - is what creates tingles.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]One of the sentences I like the most is “At first I thought you were an asshole, but…”, because, sex.
If I hear that I know that my work is practically done.[/quote]
I said that to my ex-husband. It turns out he WAS kind of an asshole. I read him correctly.
[/quote]
First, you did the nasty with him. ( I hope, who knows these days).
Second, there is the caring and the uncaring asshole.
The asshole that cares kills the tingles, the asshole that barely notices you, thats the asshole that creates the tingles.
If you go out of your way to be mean to a woman that accomplishes nothing. [/quote]
Every single guy I’ve been involved with has made very clear his interest. (We’ve been over the unlikelihood that I would even notice anyone who didn’t.)
I think in the past I’ve made two mistakes: one is to mistake aggression for masculine strength, which I seek as a balance to my feminine strength, and the other is to imagine that someone else’s aggression could keep me safe while my sunnier disposition could keep them happy. Neither turned out to be true, of course, though my sunny disposition, once gone, seems to be missed. (Two emails from Tim last week. I’m on the verge of being mean.)
I now believe that genuine strength, male or female, is quiet and assured rather than hinting of combativeness (the asshole thing).
Strength - physical, moral, intellectual - is what creates tingles.[/quote]
Sure, but an uncaring asshole seems strong.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]One of the sentences I like the most is “At first I thought you were an asshole, but…”, because, sex.
If I hear that I know that my work is practically done.[/quote]
I said that to my ex-husband. It turns out he WAS kind of an asshole. I read him correctly.
[/quote]
First, you did the nasty with him. ( I hope, who knows these days).
Second, there is the caring and the uncaring asshole.
The asshole that cares kills the tingles, the asshole that barely notices you, thats the asshole that creates the tingles.
If you go out of your way to be mean to a woman that accomplishes nothing. [/quote]
Every single guy I’ve been involved with has made very clear his interest. (We’ve been over the unlikelihood that I would even notice anyone who didn’t.)
I think in the past I’ve made two mistakes: one is to mistake aggression for masculine strength, which I seek as a balance to my feminine strength, and the other is to imagine that someone else’s aggression could keep me safe while my sunnier disposition could keep them happy. Neither turned out to be true, of course, though my sunny disposition, once gone, seems to be missed. (Two emails from Tim last week. I’m on the verge of being mean.)
I now believe that genuine strength, male or female, is quiet and assured rather than hinting of combativeness (the asshole thing).
Strength - physical, moral, intellectual - is what creates tingles.[/quote]
Sure, but an uncaring asshole seems strong. [/quote]
Sure, so if your only goal is meaningless sex, win.
If your goal is to hold onto a decent partner, not so much.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Sure, so if your only goal is meaningless sex, win.
If your goal is to hold onto a decent partner, not so much.
[/quote]
Then too.
Women stay with these guys for years.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Ha! I don’t disagree; just reluctant to state any case too strongly when all I know are some words on an internet site. Especially when it’s a love relationship with a potential life partner.
I just don’t like being that intrusive (for lack of a better word).[/quote]
EMILYQ: OVERSTEPPING BOUNDARIES SINCE 2007.
You’re right, and I worry the same thing. But I also fear erring on the side of saying too little.
[/quote]
Yeah, me, too, though I usually default to “Saying too little leaves more up to the person himself” and is therefore the lesser of 2 potential missteps.[/quote]
Well, I do appreciate both of your discretion (not quite the right word).
I think where I’m having trouble is the frequency. It’s not high, but it happens. In the last 6 months, this is the second time something like this has happened, so we’re talking like 3 days out of 180 or so where things aren’t pretty smooth sailing. Before that, maybe once or twice in the prior 6 months.
Whereas a few years back, it was like 1-2 weeks out of every month for awhile.
I’ve personally come a long ways, since annoyance is about as far as it affects me now. (Obviously annoyed enough to post here, but besides that.) I’m far beyond taking things personal and thinking it’s at all my fault.
Ever since mention of the idea of borderline behavior, I noticed that she gets like that when 1) there’s some amount of external stress on her, e.g., work; and 2) she’s speculating about the future of the two of us. Those things combined seem to trigger things. Lots of potential bias though; I could be seeing a pattern where there isn’t one.
I think what gets me most is how out of the blue and irregular it is. I mean, I’ve known plenty of negative bitchy people, male and female, who behave like that pretty regularly. And I can understand wanting to get away from such a negative influence.
But this truly leaves me with a “where the hell did that come from?” since it’s not in character. That’s mostly why the “fuck that, you don’t have to put up with that, NEXT!” falls short. 360 good and/or great days in a year, 5 bad ones. It just doesn’t seem to be at critical mass.[/quote]
Some random thoughts, as I type on my phone after midnight amidst my rather heavy jet lag.
One could possibly argue that she has responded to your “therapy” and has improved. Any significant relationship has the potential to help people grow (though I agree with Em that thinking of yourself as, or taking responsibility for, changing her is a very bad idea.
Are you comparing the frequency of problems when you live apart to that of living together?
Living apart is NOT an accurate reflection of what living together would be. It WILL get worse, IMO
That “out of the blue” nature of her behavior is, IMO, a huge red flag.
Is that “down the rabbit hole” approach to disagreements / arguments typical, or does she more often discuss reasonably? IME, HOW you argue is a crucial determinant of success / failure.
I’m tempted to say that that "It’s only X number of days; not bad enough to end it! (but not as I want it, either) is often heard from both borderline partners and codependents, but I’m not comfortable outright claiming that.
I’m really just kind brainstorming and trying to be helpful…
You seem like a good guy, Lorez. I hope this all works out for you.[/quote]
Please, please, please listen to Chushin! It will get a lot worse once you live together/get married. A lot!
As the distance between you decreases arithmetically, the frequency of problems will increase geometrically.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
As the distance between you decreases arithmetically, the frequency of problems will increase geometrically.[/quote]
ja.
She only goes apeshit when she is stressed?
Well, if kids or a marriage were involved, stress levels would only go up.
Tip of the iceberg, jajajaja…
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
As the distance between you decreases arithmetically, the frequency of problems will increase geometrically.[/quote]
ja.
She only goes apeshit when she is stressed?
Well, if kids or a marriage were involved, stress levels would only go up.
Tip of the iceberg, jajajaja…[/quote]
Those little bundles of joy are surprisingly stressful!
I’ve heard that a lot of couples lose interest in sex after child birth. I don’t know what the technical explanation is, but it might be because they get to see how ugly each can become after a couple months of sleep deprivation and crying.
I occasionally check out this place when I am avoiding getting work done and every time I read what Lorez writes, I get the urge to respond, but don’t for one reason or another. However, I spent way too long in an abusive relationship because I didn’t even realize I was in one (hint: the damage is not always physical). Yes. The word “abuse” gets thrown around a lot so there is a lot of confusion about what constitutes abuse.
However, the bottom line is, if you are in a relationship where the other person is causing you to change your behavior OUT OF FEAR of their reaction if you don’t, the argument can be made that there is some sort of abuse. And while I also recognize that it is not “alpha” to imply that a man could be emotionally abused by a woman, I think a great many are and do nothing about it out of some misguided sense of masculinity.
Now, with all of that out of the way, and please understand it is with the utmost respect for you Lorez and a desire to help you (or anyone else in a similar situation) find a better/happier life (because it is out there)…on with the show!
I spent years trying to figure out what his “triggers” were so I could avoid them. When little things bothered me, I kept my mouth shut because I didn’t want to set him off. Even on good days, I was keenly aware of the fact that the flip could be switched at any moment. Living that way was exhausting and deflated my sense of self worth.
Women can be the one at fault. Unfortunately, the literature with the information that helps is written with a gender bias, but the behaviors and thought patterns are universal.
There was one section in particular in that book that made everything click for me. It is natural in a relationship to occasionally test boundaries; particularly early on. No one is perfect and lines will be crossed from time to time. However, there are some people who constantly push the boundaries and every time you forgive a bad behavior, you are actually teaching them that they can get away with exactly that much and you won’t break up with them, so the next time they will push further.
The best way for me to wrap my head around this concept was to think about training a dog. You get a new dog and are excited. Bed time comes and you go to put the dog in her crate and she begins to bark. You hold firm to notion that you will not let the dog out no matter what, but after an hour you give in and let the dog sleep on the bed with you.
The next night you try the crate again, but what your dog has already learned is that if she barks for an hour she will be let out. This time you try to hold strong but give up after two hours. Guess what. You have just taught your dog that barking for two hours means she can get out of the cage. This goes on and on until finally you just give up on the crate thing all together because it is too much of a hassle.
This is important because what you are actually doing is changing what you originally wanted out of the relationship with your dog because of your dog’s bad behavior. You tell yourself that it could be worse and snuggling with her at night is pretty nice, but it is NOT what you wanted when you set out to get a dog.
Now imagine that your dog starts barking even when she is not in the cage. She will sit at the sliding glass door, watch the squirrels and bark like a freak. You love having the door open so you can get sunlight, but her barking is driving you nuts so you close the blinds. Again, you are giving up something you want to avoid bringing out a bad behavior in your dog.
Then, one day your dog goes nuts when a friend comes over. Hmmm. Weird. She’s never done that before. Something must have set her off. And then a few weeks later it happens again. Soon it becomes so regular that you begin to dread having people over because you don’t want them to see how the dog is acting. You once again change the life you want to have because of bad behavior and pretty soon you are isolated.
It doesn’t mean you don’t love your dog. It has brought a lot of joy to your life, but you are not living the life with your dog that you hoped for. And this is where the metaphor breaks down because, with a dog, you can put your foot down and stop allowing it to run your life. You don’t have the option of tying it to a stop sign somewhere and going to get another one that you love and also enhances the life you want. But you can do that with a significant other.
You can find that person that will be all those things you want. The person who doesn’t make you change who you are and what you want.
Look. I hope I am way off base. I hope I over stepped my bounds and this in no way applies to you. But this is something I wish I understood years ago and in many ways, just writing it down helps me to put it all in perspective and leave my past in the past. Best of luck in whatever works for you, but if nothing else, remember that you only get one life and it is too short to fill it with people who don’t bring out your absolute best.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
And how are you these days, my friend?[/quote]
Pretty good, bud, pretty good. Thank you for asking.
I got away from the crazy and though it’s not easy to pick up the pieces, things are looking up. Was lucky to find a great job making decent money, working with nice people.
Oncologist thought cancer had come back (tumor markers in blood were very high for some reason) BUT it turned out NOT to be so after a battery of tests. Huge relief, as you can imagine.
Custody battle is leaning my way (she tried to get full custody claiming abuse etc etc). My attorney did some great work and though we still have a mediation meeting as of now it seems I will end up with Joint Legal, Joint Physical and that’s all I wanted.
Training is going well and I am back up to 245lbs.
Oh, and I had a few amazing romps in the hay with a 5’10" Russian model who thinks the world of me
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]SmilingPolitely wrote:
I occasionally check out this place when I am avoiding getting work done and every time I read what Lorez writes, I get the urge to respond, but don’t for one reason or another. However, I spent way too long in an abusive relationship because I didn’t even realize I was in one (hint: the damage is not always physical). Yes. The word “abuse” gets thrown around a lot so there is a lot of confusion about what constitutes abuse.
However, the bottom line is, if you are in a relationship where the other person is causing you to change your behavior OUT OF FEAR of their reaction if you don’t, the argument can be made that there is some sort of abuse. And while I also recognize that it is not “alpha” to imply that a man could be emotionally abused by a woman, I think a great many are and do nothing about it out of some misguided sense of masculinity.
Now, with all of that out of the way, and please understand it is with the utmost respect for you Lorez and a desire to help you (or anyone else in a similar situation) find a better/happier life (because it is out there)…on with the show!
I spent years trying to figure out what his “triggers” were so I could avoid them. When little things bothered me, I kept my mouth shut because I didn’t want to set him off. Even on good days, I was keenly aware of the fact that the flip could be switched at any moment. Living that way was exhausting and deflated my sense of self worth.
Women can be the one at fault. Unfortunately, the literature with the information that helps is written with a gender bias, but the behaviors and thought patterns are universal.
There was one section in particular in that book that made everything click for me. It is natural in a relationship to occasionally test boundaries; particularly early on. No one is perfect and lines will be crossed from time to time. However, there are some people who constantly push the boundaries and every time you forgive a bad behavior, you are actually teaching them that they can get away with exactly that much and you won’t break up with them, so the next time they will push further.
The best way for me to wrap my head around this concept was to think about training a dog. You get a new dog and are excited. Bed time comes and you go to put the dog in her crate and she begins to bark. You hold firm to notion that you will not let the dog out no matter what, but after an hour you give in and let the dog sleep on the bed with you.
The next night you try the crate again, but what your dog has already learned is that if she barks for an hour she will be let out. This time you try to hold strong but give up after two hours. Guess what. You have just taught your dog that barking for two hours means she can get out of the cage. This goes on and on until finally you just give up on the crate thing all together because it is too much of a hassle.
This is important because what you are actually doing is changing what you originally wanted out of the relationship with your dog because of your dog’s bad behavior. You tell yourself that it could be worse and snuggling with her at night is pretty nice, but it is NOT what you wanted when you set out to get a dog.
Now imagine that your dog starts barking even when she is not in the cage. She will sit at the sliding glass door, watch the squirrels and bark like a freak. You love having the door open so you can get sunlight, but her barking is driving you nuts so you close the blinds. Again, you are giving up something you want to avoid bringing out a bad behavior in your dog.
Then, one day your dog goes nuts when a friend comes over. Hmmm. Weird. She’s never done that before. Something must have set her off. And then a few weeks later it happens again. Soon it becomes so regular that you begin to dread having people over because you don’t want them to see how the dog is acting. You once again change the life you want to have because of bad behavior and pretty soon you are isolated.
It doesn’t mean you don’t love your dog. It has brought a lot of joy to your life, but you are not living the life with your dog that you hoped for. And this is where the metaphor breaks down because, with a dog, you can put your foot down and stop allowing it to run your life. You don’t have the option of tying it to a stop sign somewhere and going to get another one that you love and also enhances the life you want. But you can do that with a significant other.
You can find that person that will be all those things you want. The person who doesn’t make you change who you are and what you want.
Look. I hope I am way off base. I hope I over stepped my bounds and this in no way applies to you. But this is something I wish I understood years ago and in many ways, just writing it down helps me to put it all in perspective and leave my past in the past. Best of luck in whatever works for you, but if nothing else, remember that you only get one life and it is too short to fill it with people who don’t bring out your absolute best.[/quote]
[/quote]
That is an excellent post.
Ja…
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/nyc/30828412.html
Also, this gives me a manrection, son…
[quote]SmilingPolitely wrote:
I occasionally check out this place when I am avoiding getting work done and every time I read what Lorez writes, I get the urge to respond, but don’t for one reason or another. However, I spent way too long in an abusive relationship because I didn’t even realize I was in one (hint: the damage is not always physical). Yes. The word “abuse” gets thrown around a lot so there is a lot of confusion about what constitutes abuse.
However, the bottom line is, if you are in a relationship where the other person is causing you to change your behavior OUT OF FEAR of their reaction if you don’t, the argument can be made that there is some sort of abuse. And while I also recognize that it is not “alpha” to imply that a man could be emotionally abused by a woman, I think a great many are and do nothing about it out of some misguided sense of masculinity.
Now, with all of that out of the way, and please understand it is with the utmost respect for you Lorez and a desire to help you (or anyone else in a similar situation) find a better/happier life (because it is out there)…on with the show!
I spent years trying to figure out what his “triggers” were so I could avoid them. When little things bothered me, I kept my mouth shut because I didn’t want to set him off. Even on good days, I was keenly aware of the fact that the flip could be switched at any moment. Living that way was exhausting and deflated my sense of self worth.
Women can be the one at fault. Unfortunately, the literature with the information that helps is written with a gender bias, but the behaviors and thought patterns are universal.
There was one section in particular in that book that made everything click for me. It is natural in a relationship to occasionally test boundaries; particularly early on. No one is perfect and lines will be crossed from time to time. However, there are some people who constantly push the boundaries and every time you forgive a bad behavior, you are actually teaching them that they can get away with exactly that much and you won’t break up with them, so the next time they will push further.
The best way for me to wrap my head around this concept was to think about training a dog. You get a new dog and are excited. Bed time comes and you go to put the dog in her crate and she begins to bark. You hold firm to notion that you will not let the dog out no matter what, but after an hour you give in and let the dog sleep on the bed with you.
The next night you try the crate again, but what your dog has already learned is that if she barks for an hour she will be let out. This time you try to hold strong but give up after two hours. Guess what. You have just taught your dog that barking for two hours means she can get out of the cage. This goes on and on until finally you just give up on the crate thing all together because it is too much of a hassle.
This is important because what you are actually doing is changing what you originally wanted out of the relationship with your dog because of your dog’s bad behavior. You tell yourself that it could be worse and snuggling with her at night is pretty nice, but it is NOT what you wanted when you set out to get a dog.
Now imagine that your dog starts barking even when she is not in the cage. She will sit at the sliding glass door, watch the squirrels and bark like a freak. You love having the door open so you can get sunlight, but her barking is driving you nuts so you close the blinds. Again, you are giving up something you want to avoid bringing out a bad behavior in your dog.
Then, one day your dog goes nuts when a friend comes over. Hmmm. Weird. She’s never done that before. Something must have set her off. And then a few weeks later it happens again. Soon it becomes so regular that you begin to dread having people over because you don’t want them to see how the dog is acting. You once again change the life you want to have because of bad behavior and pretty soon you are isolated.
It doesn’t mean you don’t love your dog. It has brought a lot of joy to your life, but you are not living the life with your dog that you hoped for. And this is where the metaphor breaks down because, with a dog, you can put your foot down and stop allowing it to run your life. You don’t have the option of tying it to a stop sign somewhere and going to get another one that you love and also enhances the life you want. But you can do that with a significant other.
You can find that person that will be all those things you want. The person who doesn’t make you change who you are and what you want.
Look. I hope I am way off base. I hope I over stepped my bounds and this in no way applies to you. But this is something I wish I understood years ago and in many ways, just writing it down helps me to put it all in perspective and leave my past in the past. Best of luck in whatever works for you, but if nothing else, remember that you only get one life and it is too short to fill it with people who don’t bring out your absolute best.[/quote]
Nice post, SP. It reminded me of this, written by a close friend. I was helping her clean her family’s lake cottage and we were talking about my stupid relationship. This is a follow-up:
Now, Emily, this needs its own post … so here we go. While I did give you the same lecture I gave to [13-year-old niece], you realize that you only got about 1/16th of it … because I was distracted by the cobwebs and all that. Though after reading this:
[quote]
Plus, what if he needs to talk? Or what if I do?[/quote]
I see that you may need the other 2.5 hours of the lecture. LOL and 
Seriously?! What if he needs to talk?! Let him get a fucking therapist. He needs one and it should not be you. In all seriousness, with all kidding aside, I’m going to ask you a question (or several) because it concerns me that you would even say something like this because I think you mean it. And that question is: do you value yourself enough to seek a relationship with someone who is whole? Do you value yourself enough to seek for a person who can give as much as you give?
I know you have a long history with Tim and I get that he has many fine qualities, and that you had a lot of fun together, but he is deeply flawed and trouble with a capital T. It concerns me that your memory of your time with him seems to be becoming quite selective. It wasn’t all sex and stir-fries, it was more of a roller coaster of misunderstanding, arguments, cold shoulders, lashing out with mean comments (him, I mean) and that’s only when you weren’t propping him up.
I don’t know if its that you’re feeling wistful about him because you’re not dating at the moment, but where is all of this coming from? I cannot fathom that you would even entertain the idea of revisiting your relationship with Tim, when the last long conversation you and I had about him involved the words “assault” “shotgun” and “police”. Girl, please!
You are worth SO much more than this and I want you to have it. And you CAN have it … but I don’t for one minute believe you can have it with Tim. I’m sorry if I sound harsh here, but its because I love you enough to be honest with you.
[quote]orion wrote:
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/nyc/30828412.html
Also, this gives me a manrection, son…[/quote]
Why does it make you happy? It made me really sad, and it makes me sad that you’re gleeful over one guy’s shitty reaction to a shitty date.
He should have said no in the beginning. He should have said no after looking at the menu, maybe limiting it to appetizers. He shouldn’t have ordered expensive food he couldn’t afford any more than she should have. He should have said “Sorry, I prefer going dutch on first dates.”
Two jerks ordering a dinner neither intended to pay for makes me limp with despair.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/nyc/30828412.html
Also, this gives me a manrection, son…[/quote]
Why does it make you happy? It made me really sad, and it makes me sad that you’re gleeful over one guy’s shitty reaction to a shitty date.
He should have said no in the beginning. He should have said no after looking at the menu, maybe limiting it to appetizers. He shouldn’t have ordered expensive food he couldn’t afford any more than she should have. He should have said “Sorry, I prefer going dutch on first dates.”
Two jerks ordering a dinner neither intended to pay for makes me limp with despair. [/quote]
Oh I agree with you that there are better ways to play it.
But, I have a very big place in my heart for guys who are in the process of taking their balls out of their manpurse and attach them in the right place.
That process does not need to be so suave or executed with laser like precision, in fact, that only gets in the way.
A man that decides that no, he does not have to put up with it and yes, he has the power to punish bad behavior, even when it comes to women, makes me all proud and stuff.
Its a very special moment.
here too, because posted in wrong thread
Two things:
I had to google “manrection”.
Apparently the term exists and means exactly what I wanted it to mean:
http://de.urbandictionary.com/...term=manrection
O_O!!!
Then:
Everytime a man finds his balls an angel gets its wings.