What is the position of your spine? Is it “neutral”(a little bit of arch), straight, or hunched?
Get some vids or pictures, and check your elbow position. If they are flaring back, your spine is rounding over a bit right at the top. Maybe not badly, but still fatal to a good squat.
Feel is deceptive if you have a bit of kyphosis. It feels like your form is good, but you have to get another look and some feedback from pics, video, or a spotter who knows what to look for.
I had this saved on my computer…
FROM JOE DEFRANCO
Q: Joe,
Whenever I do squats I have a tendency to get pulled forward and my heels come off of the ground. (I know you like box squats, but Im talking about Olympic squats.) I warm-up properly, but I just cant seem to correct the problem. Should I just put a block under my heels or is there something else that I can do?
A:
This is a very common problem that can be caused by a number of different things. The best way for me to help you would be for me to evaluate your squat form. Since I dont think it would be practical for you to fly in from Tennessee and squat for me, Ill just give you some advice.
Many times this technique flaw is caused by a lack of flexibility. Again, its tough for me to give you advice when Ive never seen you squat, but my recommendation cant hurt. Try this; after a light warm-up, static stretch your calves and hip flexors before you squat. Yes, I said STATIC STRETCH these muscles! This is one of the few exceptions to the rule of not static stretching before heavy lifting. Weakening these muscles with static stretching doesnt hurt your squat do to the fact that neither of these muscles are prime movers when squatting. Increasing the length of these muscles will help prevent you from getting pulled forward when squatting. Try the 2 stretches pictured below before you squat. Let me know if your form gets better.
(picture in above previous post)
#1) WEIGHTED CALF STRETCH Perform 2 sets of 20 seconds each leg
(picture in this post)
#2) STATIC HIP FLEXOR STRETCH Perform 2 sets of
20 seconds each leg
[quote]bgl500 wrote:
What helped to clean up my form was to significantly drop the weight and concentrate getting my butt to sit back and then to push my upper back into the bar before coming up out of the hole. A very exaggerated ‘chest out and butt back’ posture from beginning to end helped quite a bit too.[/quote]
This is some good advice Bob. This is what you can try to get a better feel. Try doing them without any weight at all. You should have a very balanced and FIRM stance. A strong wind should not be able to budge you.
Guys, thank you all for the advice.
I tried to take a video of myself squating today. It is quarter squats (this is what I do). You can download it at http://mazema.com/gym/videos/squat1.avi. This particular lift is with 80 kgr.
I also asked an old experienced lifter at the gym. I had him watch me lift 20, 60 and 80 kgrs. He said that my form was OK. !!!
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
What is the position of your spine? Is it “neutral”(a little bit of arch), straight, or hunched?[/quote]
I try to arch my back as much as possible. I inhale and then then compress my abdomen. I try to keep my chest out. I look up as far as possible.
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Get some vids or pictures, and check your elbow position. If they are flaring back, your spine is rounding over a bit right at the top. Maybe not badly, but still fatal to a good squat.
[/quote]
Hm, now that I see the video, my elbows are very far back. I did not know this is a problem. I think I keep them there to prevent the bar from sliding down my back.
try dropping the bar lower on your back. If you are a tall lifter, which from your problem sounds like you are as I am, We have a problem with accessive leaning because of your long limbs and a farther distance from the center of gravity. to bring the weight closer to the center of gravity, and therefore less weight on your spine, the bar has to be brought down on the back. almost to where the bar is accross the rear delts and lower traps.
The part where you inhale and hold is actually called the valsalva maneuver. It’s amazing how many people find that out themselves without knowing the science to back it up! I was telling my trainer how I found I could squat better when I breathed in and held my breath on the down part when he told me what it was.
I have to ask. Why do you only do 1/4 squats?
[quote]BobPit wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
What is the position of your spine? Is it “neutral”(a little bit of arch), straight, or hunched?
I try to arch my back as much as possible. I inhale and then then compress my abdomen. I try to keep my chest out. I look up as far as possible.
SkyzykS wrote:
Get some vids or pictures, and check your elbow position. If they are flaring back, your spine is rounding over a bit right at the top. Maybe not badly, but still fatal to a good squat.
Hm, now that I see the video, my elbows are very far back. I did not know this is a problem. I think I keep them there to prevent the bar from sliding down my back.
[/quote]
Yea, that is a posture problem. I noticed in your pics that you have the same type of forward jutting neck as I do. I think it is usualy an over lengthening of the erector spinea, lumbar and cervical region, combined with a tightening of the clavicular sternicomastoid(sp?).
Robertson and Cressy have addressed this in the “Neandertal No More” series, and I’m going to get some hands on training for it when my s&c coach gets back in to town.
I can’t be sure that this is the case with you, but it looks realy similar.
[quote]BobPit wrote:
I look up as far as possible.[/quote]
Don’t. It’s bad form and may screw your spine up. Keep your spine in a neutral position (the whole spine).
Why are you only doing 1/4 squats? You’re seriously hampering your gains by pussying out on squats.
[quote]hardcoreukno0359 wrote:
If you are a tall lifter, which from your problem sounds like you are as I am[/quote]
No, my height is just 1,73 m. I am not tall.
[quote]craigspud101 wrote:
The part where you inhale and hold is actually called the valsalva maneuver. It’s amazing how many people find that out themselves without knowing the science to back it up![/quote]
I got this tip from Pavel’s books and forum. Actually I do it for most heavy lifts (DL, BP, Dips etc).
[quote]craigspud101 wrote:
I have to ask. Why do you only do 1/4 squats?[/quote]
I try to go to 90 degrees angle of my legs.
My orthopedics doctor always cautions me for my knees. Whenever I go to his office he shows me pictures of athlet’s destroyed knees. The summer of 2005 I was doing very little squating and very heavy leg-extentions. I thought this was safer, it turned out it was much much worse. I developed a very small tear on the outer part of meniscus (cartilage), which is not much of a problem.
So I did some research. What I found is this: Squats are safe, as long as the leg muscles are strong to support the joint. Don’t use any bandages, so that the joint muscles become strong (unless when doing maximal lifts). In quarter squats, most of the work is done by the quads. The lower you go from 90 degrees, the hams and glutes do most of the job.
The lower you go, the more strain you put on the knee joints. You also need to reduce the weight. But, if you reduce the weight, in order to go low and exercise the hams and glutes, then the quads have a very easy job to do at the higher part of the motion.
So I decided to do quarter squats to hit the quads and do DeadLift to work the hams and glutes. Actually StiffLeg DL is much better for hams and glutes, but I gave up on them and did only the bent leg DL.
Bob
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Yea, that is a posture problem. I noticed in your pics that you have the same type of forward jutting neck as I do. I think it is usualy an over lengthening of the erector spinea, lumbar and cervical region, combined with a tightening of the clavicular sternicomastoid(sp?).
Robertson and Cressy have addressed this in the “Neandertal No More” series, and I’m going to get some hands on training for it when my s&c coach gets back in to town.
I can’t be sure that this is the case with you, but it looks realy similar.[/quote]
I know I have a little lordosis. I.e. exagerated arch in the lower back, my but stiks out more. My doctor never told me this is a problem. I don’t know about the problem that you mention.
Bob,
Let me start of by saying that I am a physical therapist, so this is an area that I work on daily. Your leaning forward problem is a flexibility issue (usually more your hips than your ankles). Try this, place a 10 lb. plate under each heel (feet about hip width apart). Put you arms up straight over your head (to put your lats on stretch). Now squat. Can you get deeper this way? The answer is probably “yes”.
By your posture, the squat is more hip flexor dominant that glute-dominant. Then, when the hip flexors run out of room, you have to bend your knees more than you should and you lean forward. Be careful because you will kill your knees this way.
You have 1 of 2 choices: 1.) Squat with your heels slightly elevated and as you get better, decrease the height of elevation (in the clinic, we use a 2x4, then a 1x4, then a rolled up towel, then flat)
Or 2.) Purchase a black (heavy resistance)or blue (medium) mini-band from www.performbetter.com. Put this above the knees. Push out into the band to kick in your glutes first, then squat and you’ll go deeper and have no/less pain. I always prove this by having someone try and push your knees together while you try to squat. You push out to meet their resistance. Now squat…you should see improved motion and decreased pain (don’t do this part with a weighted bar!!!).
Hope this helps. If any of it is confusing, I’d be happy to try and clear it up. Best of luck.
Mike
Hi Mike,
thank you for your concern and attempt to help me.
[quote]mikandrea wrote:
place a 10 lb. plate under each heel (feet about hip width apart). Put you arms up straight over your head (to put your lats on stretch). Now squat. Can you get deeper this way?[/quote]
I don’t understand. Why would I do this? I only do quarter squats. Going deep is not an issue for me.
[quote]mikandrea wrote:
By your posture, the squat is more hip flexor dominant that glute-dominant.[/quote]
Did you see me performing the quarter squat at http://mazema.com/gym/videos/squat1.avi ?
When I had an old experienced lifter watch me, he told me my posture is OK. So I am a little lost now.
[quote]mikandrea wrote:
Then, when the hip flexors run out of room, you have to bend your knees more than you should and you lean forward. Be careful because you will kill your knees this way.[/quote]
Bent my knees more? But I only do quarter squats. My knees bent up to 90 degrees and no more. I am sorry, what do you mean here?
Bob
[quote]mikandrea wrote:
By your posture, the squat is more hip flexor dominant that glute-dominant. [/quote]
You mean that my hip flexor is not flexible enough for squat? If this is the case, then can you recommend me a stretching exercise for it?
Bob
Bob,
Sorry to be so confusing. Even with your 1/4 squats, you can see your knees bend too early and excessive. Yes, I just watched the video…sorry, couldn’t watch it earlier at work. The plates under the heels actually accomplish 2 things:
1.) They take some strain off of the calves. You don’t need as much flexibility to squat this way (1 of the 2 main resons someone leans forward when squatting). A few references are available here, namely Mike Clark’s work with NASM.
2.) Lifting the heels changes the rotation of the pelvis, thus enabling the glutes to kick in faster. If the glutes kick in, then the oppsite muscle (hip flexors in this case) must shut off. This is called reciprocal inhibition.
And, not to sound like a jerk, but why are you only performing 1/4 squats. The research says that the last 30 degrees to standing is the most dangerous position of the squat and this is where your spending all of your time. Your contributing to your problem every time you lift by not squatting to parallel.
Does this help? I hope so. Best of luck and realize that even if it doesn’t amke the most sense, it is VERY improtant for your knee and low back health that you change your technique. By the way, I would suspect that you have some low back pain on the right side of your low back when you squat…is that correct? Its an educated guess by watching your technique. Again, best of luck to you.
Mike
Mike
Thank you for the info and interest. Since I am not that familiar with medical orthopedics terms and function of the body, I am still trying to understand. Let me ask you the easy questions first.
[quote]mikandrea wrote:
Even with your 1/4 squats, you can see your knees bend too early and excessive. [/quote]
Well, I am trying to go down. Or at least take the bar to a lower level. An athlet does this by benting his knees and leaning forward.
If I try to keep my body more erect and not lean too much, (which is supposed to be my problem), then I SHOULD bent my knees more and earlier. Do you see my confusuion? Please tell me what I am missing.
[quote]mikandrea wrote:
The plates under the heels actually accomplish 2 things:
[/quote]
I know that raising the heels improves posture. But this puts extra strain on the knees. Something I want to avoid.
[quote]mikandrea wrote:
And, not to sound like a jerk, but why are you only performing 1/4 squats.
[/quote]
I was hoping an educated person would ask this. I posed an answer on this same page, on 09/25/06, at 02:19 PM. Can you please tell me if I am correct?
[quote]mikandrea wrote:
I would suspect that you have some low back pain on the right side of your low back when you squat…is that correct? [/quote]
Since I do squats and DL, most of the time I feel my back stiff. hm, yes, I could say I feel more stiff on the right side. But I never feel any pain when exercising. But I do have a problem (spasm) in the midle right part of my back. I visited an orthopedics doctor, a physiotherapist and a chiropractor. I used to have problem washing my dishes, cleaning fish, even driving my motor-bike. I could not hold my right arm extended for a long time. My back is much better now but I still have problem.
Let me get back to you with more questions on your post later.
Thanks
Bob
I search for squat videos on the net. In most of them I see the athlet leaning forward like I do (my impression). Plus his knees come forward too much, above the toes, which is bad.
So can somebody point me to a better video?
[quote]BobPit wrote:
I try to go to 90 degrees angle of my legs.
In quarter squats, most of the work is done by the quads. The lower you go from 90 degrees, the hams and glutes do most of the job.
The lower you go, the more strain you put on the knee joints. You also need to reduce the weight. But, if you reduce the weight, in order to go low and exercise the hams and glutes, then the quads have a very easy job to do at the higher part of the motion.
So I decided to do quarter squats to hit the quads and do DeadLift to work the hams and glutes. Actually StiffLeg DL is much better for hams and glutes, but I gave up on them and did only the bent leg DL.
Bob
[/quote]
Hey Bob,
If it helps, in your particular case, I think you should stop thinking about your squat from a bodybuilder’s point of view and start thinking about it from a movement point of view.
Trying to emphasise your quads will only lead to further and further difficulties. Once you’ve got your hamstrings, glutes and lower back right in conjunction with your quads, then you can start messing around with which part of the movement does what.
I agree with Mike, studies have shown that the ligaments in your knees are strongest in full knee flexion and full knee extension. Stopping and changing directions at the weakest part of your squat could have bad consequences.
If you truly can’t get any lower without leaning a lot further forward, it sounds to me like you need to stretch out your hamstrings and perhaps your glutes.
And by the way, looking straight up while you squat is only going to make your forward head posture even worse.