I have a problem and would like to hear from anyone else who has dealt with and/or overcome it. I have a terrible time developing my lats even though I’ve had great results with my training in the past few months.
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By using Mag-10, Tribex/RedKat and other Biotest supps I have seen great gains in size, strength and body comp.
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But it’s like my lats aren’t connected to my brain. For pullups I’ve tried negatives, multiple sets of singles, weight-assisted reps, partial reps, heavy pulldowns and everything else I can think of and have seen no real improvement in width or strength in my lats. On a good day I can maybe do 3 pullups (at 6’1" and about 225 with ~12-13% bf I’m pretty strong in other areas). I would appreciate any input!
PS: kidding about the buttlick! I have been impressed beyond all expectations with Biotest’s supplements and plan to continue giving them my hard-earned dough!
What kind of pullups are you doing? I’d suggest a wide grip to build wider lats. Also, are you gaining muscle in other areas of your body? If you’re gaining in other areas but just not your lats it’s a training issue, otherwise you need to eat more so you can pack on some mass. For training, try using a wider grip and possibly use the lat pulldown station. While they aren’t as good as pullups it will allow you to do more reps. Since you’ve got a 3RM for pullups you can’t get into the rep range that is very conducive to hypertrophy. While you can put on size with a lower rep scheme, you’d be better off doing sets of 8-12 at a tempo of 211 or 301. It’s worked for me in the past, so I hope this helps.
I have the same problem. I am 6’1" 250 and pull-ups were always wicked hard. I am at a point where I can get a set of ten at bodyweight and three or four with forty pounds strapped on. The point is I never got my lats to grow until I did wide grip pull-ups. Now, every time I do pull-ups, I do one set of weighted pull-ups to failure, one set wide grip bodyweight pullups, one set medium grip, and one set nuetral grip. It seems to be adding both size and strength for me.
Wider grip, towel chins and more deads it is then.
Thanks!
geek out…
PS: Paul, I have been making good gains in recent months with heavy training, big eating and good supps, so I need to look at it from a training method standpoint. Thanks again!ing method standpoint. Thanks again!
Wide grip chins will not necessarily make your lats wider - this is a bit of a myth. Look at the action of the lats…if you use a wide grip, you actually shorten the effective range of movement availabe at the shoulder joint (adduction). To activate the lats more, use a narrower gtip…this increases the ROM available, permits greater load and stimulates more lat. fibres. Look at rock climbers if you don’t believe me…wide lats and no wide chin ups (not very sports specific…)Its like suggesting only doing 1/2 reps in the bench to make your chest bigger…pointless!
It could be your lats are inhibited by some shoulder inpingment of some sort and therefore your shoulders need some treatment (ART etc)
You could try a bit of “touch training”. Ask your training partner to place their hands on your lats when you are doing rows, chins, pulldowns etc. The nerves that inervate (switch on) the muscles also inervate the skin that covers them so by touching the skin covering the lats you can help switch them on more effectivly.
Finally, maybe try pre or post exhaust on the lats eg. do straight arm pull downs with the lat pull machine before of after your pull/chin ups.
T Shaw - not such a stupid question!!!Wide grip deadlifts do put increased workload on your muscles - just not your lats. It would increase the ROM available at the hip and therefore make the hamstrings and glutes work harder. To experience the same result without widening your grip, try deadlifting standing on a 3-4 inch platform and see where you feel it.
Patch: wide grip pullups puts more emphasis on the lower lats (an area not extensively trained in a lot of people) compared to a more narrow grip which works the upper lats more. I suggested the wide grip pullups because it would 1. work a different part of the lats harder than it usually is, stimulating new growth, and 2. growth in the lower lats is responsible for a longer v-shape in the lats, which leads to a wider look in the lats.
I am gonna have to chime in here and add a word of caution. wide grip pull ups are great for your upper back but they put a hell of a strain on the shoulder joint. the wider the grip the more your shoulders are at risk. it is an individual thing as some people can go very wide with their grip and be ok but i would expand the width of your grip gradually over time. this is something i did not do last year and as a consequence i screwed up my left shoulder and could not train for over a month.
If you want to really feel a lat stretch start with your right arm. Raise it overhead so that your bicep is close to your ear. Now flop the forearm over your head, grab the wrist with your free hand and lean way over to your left.
You don’t stretch the lats (and make them grow) by placing your arm away from your body. Hence, a narrow grip will allow more lat involvement than a wider grip.
I also think bikeboy is correct as well about the dangers of wide grip Pull-ups placing to much stress on the shoulder joint. (unnatural movement boys…yep)
There is simply no good reason to do wide grip Pull-ups.
Caution noted. I do have some shoulder issues after training for nearly 12 years and ignoring my rotator cuffs for about 9 of them. Am currently seeing a chiro/ART practicioner and having good results (and of cource incorporating frequent rotator cuff exercises).
Myo:
I have recently been doing more DB rows and will try to add weight as I progress (doing 80# per side now).
You make a good point ZEB. I have found through trial and error that an inch or two outside a shoulder width grip on pull ups is about right for me. Like i said though, everyone is different.
ZEB: never did I say wide grip pullups involve the lats more, in fact I completely agree with what you said. I simply threw out the idea that they work the lats differently from a traditional closer grip pullup, thus adding a new stimulus to encourage further muscle growth.
Chinups (close grip, multiple sets of body weight, from the dead hang) and bent-over rows are the staples of my back routine. I throw in lat pulls (one armed) to really hit the lower lats every other workout. The other workouts I do barbell raises. Happy with the results…
Muscles fibre either contract or don’t contract - it’s called the all or nothing law in biomechanics…this basically breaks down to the following…you cannot select which fibres are rectuited - they are either are or aren’t. This upper lat/lower lat thing is just bodybuilding folklore! I cannot select at which end my muscle contracts…it just does it’s job. It’s right up there with doing preacher curls to hit your lower biceps…try finding lower biceps (or lower lats for that matter) in any anatomy book!
The function of the lats is A) extension of the shoulder joint (Rows -bar to mid/lower abs) B) Adduction from abduction (Chins etc) c) Flexion from extension (Pullovers) and D) Medial rotation of the humerous (The lat spread :-))
Lat width at the waist (AKA “lower lats”) is more to do with genetics, muscle attatchment sites and length of muscle attachment (tendons) none of which, unless you are a surgeon, can really be changed/
In wide grip pull ups, there is indeed some adduction of the humerous but because of the width of the grip you cannot pull into full (humerous right against the body) and therefore only end up doing 1/2 - 2/3 of a rep - thus cheating your self out of the potential stimulation of the lat fibres. Wide grip chins are also very hard on the shoulders as Zeb pointed out.
Want bigger lats - superset bent over rows and bent legged deadlifts (I got that little combo from another T-Man - works a treat!)
