Lat Pulldowns vs. Pull-Ups

Training Bodybuilding
21

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
Fulmen wrote:
If you must choose, Pull-ups are by far greater for strength and hypertrophy. However, one should use BOTH, rather than just one.

Why? I need a reason besides the idea that you need 9 sets per muscle group.[/quote]

[u]This is the reason Pull-ups are better.[/u]

With pullups, you have fewer synergists, which then means that your latissimus dorsi will be used MORE than with a lat pull down. Pullups and pulldowns both have these working as synergists:

Brachialis, Brachioradialis, Biceps Brachii, Teres Major, Rhomboids, Levator Scapulae, Pectoralis Minor, Trapezius, and the Lower Pectoralis Major.

Now, with pulldowns, you have 3 more muscles helping you, thus taking more work away from the latissimus dorsi (those being the posterior deltoid, infraspinatus, and middle trapezius).

[u]This is why BOTH are better than ONE.[/u]

From a physique building standpoint, which I was coming from, using both are better than just using one. I would recommend using pullups before pulldowns in your routine. The reason for this is because that will allow your lats to be worked to its maximum. Pulldowns would then be added after the pull-ups to help build up the accompaning muscles that help build aesthetic lats (i.e. infraspinitus, rear delts), as well as further tearing down your latissimus dorsi muscle (thus causing it to hypertrophy more).

Any questions?

22

I would assume that the gravitron assisted machine would be an excellent way to work into pullups (if you can’t already do it) or do higher rep ranges WITHOUT changing the muscle recruitment. I found it very useful in increasing my dipping strength, and it also helped me do 3-4 free pullups (by gradually lowering assistance till I reached zero and then switching to the pullup bar). Of course an assisted pullup with NO assistance but your knees on the pad is still a lot easier than a completely free pullup.
In my case though,I found it easier to increase reps by FIRST increasing the load and doing the same number of reps.

[quote]Mad Titan wrote:
MytchBucanan wrote:
Wow…well that is improvement! I have done them faithfully for years and have never experienced that kind of a gain in strength.

that’s almost weird…because he’s been doing them for 13.5 months now. Remember you are what you repeatedly do…so if you want to be good at them i suggest doing them more than once a week and don’t be afraid to add weight if you can at least 5 [/quote]

23

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
I can do pull-ups for all the high reps I need. I can do weighted pull-ups for all the average and heavy work I need. But why do I see bodybuilders using the lat-pull down machine like its a steep angled row to the clavicle? Is it really because they weigh too much to do pull-ups?

If there’s not some physiological advantage to using lat pull downs over pull-ups then pro-bodybuilders doing lat-pull downs is just fucked up…unless they’re using it as a warm up…which still makes it pretty fucked up. I’m sorry, but if the pros are doing lat-pull downs because they’re limited to that, then they really are lacking functional strength for their size. [/quote]

Let’s introduce another perspective for the sake of debate. If you notice that most of the bigger guys use controlled movement (call it momentum if you prefer) maybe there’s a reason.

Personally I’ve noticed that I made some good gains once I stopped aiming for “perfect” form on some exercises after I noticed that most of the bigger guys don’t use “perfect” form all the time. I will always use the best form I can on exercises like squats, bench presses and deadlifts but when it comes to stuff like lateral raises, curls (not including drag curls) and lat pulldowns a little movement has helped me. Obviously there’s a difference between what I’m talking about (basically a little movement which allows you to build a rhythm) and the wild back extension swinging curls you see some people doing.

What do you guys think?

FYI, the lat pulldowns follow weighted chins so I don’t use them because I’m too weak to do pullups or chins.

But, if I had to choose as the OP asked it has to be pullups/chins all the way.

24

You should all read my last reply to this thread.

25

I wouldn’t use lat pulldowns to help me do more pull-ups… o.O I do throw them in but only 3 sets later on, I’ve gone from 3 pullups to 11 in 6 weeks, just by doing as many pulls as possible, resting til I have the mental grit to go again. 3-4 weeks ago I was doing 5-7 sets of pull-ups twice a week as many as possible. :slight_smile:

26

[quote]IQ wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
I can do pull-ups for all the high reps I need. I can do weighted pull-ups for all the average and heavy work I need. But why do I see bodybuilders using the lat-pull down machine like its a steep angled row to the clavicle? Is it really because they weigh too much to do pull-ups?

If there’s not some physiological advantage to using lat pull downs over pull-ups then pro-bodybuilders doing lat-pull downs is just fucked up…unless they’re using it as a warm up…which still makes it pretty fucked up. I’m sorry, but if the pros are doing lat-pull downs because they’re limited to that, then they really are lacking functional strength for their size.

Let’s introduce another perspective for the sake of debate. If you notice that most of the bigger guys use controlled movement (call it momentum if you prefer) maybe there’s a reason.

Personally I’ve noticed that I made some good gains once I stopped aiming for “perfect” form on some exercises after I noticed that most of the bigger guys don’t use “perfect” form all the time. I will always use the best form I can on exercises like squats, bench presses and deadlifts but when it comes to stuff like lateral raises, curls (not including drag curls) and lat pulldowns a little movement has helped me. Obviously there’s a difference between what I’m talking about (basically a little movement which allows you to build a rhythm) and the wild back extension swinging curls you see some people doing.

What do you guys think?

FYI, the lat pulldowns follow weighted chins so I don’t use them because I’m too weak to do pullups or chins.

But, if I had to choose as the OP asked it has to be pullups/chins all the way.[/quote]

IQ, I see your point. many pros do use a swinging or what some might call “cheating” to their movements, but it is always done in a rep tempo style.

The funny thing is when I go very strict on bicep curls, I never feel my biceps and get less of a pump. I always feel it in the shoulders and forearms.

But when I do them with a bit of a rhythm like the pros, my biceps fatigue much quicker and the pump is enormous!

27

Since there are some knowledgeable guys tuning in on this thread I thought I’d ask for a brief explanation on how different types of pull ups train your muscles differently (grip variations, hand spacing, etc)

15 years ago when I was a toothpick I could do a fair number of chins and pullups. Now I’m 32, weigh a lot more and can’t do what I used to. Trying to fix that.

Titan - you have lats that you could land a helicopter on, glad to hear you built them on pull ups/chins since I don’t have a cable machine at home.

If anyone has time to answer that or point me in the right direction, I appreciate it.

newt

28

[quote]Fulmen wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
Fulmen wrote:
If you must choose, Pull-ups are by far greater for strength and hypertrophy. However, one should use BOTH, rather than just one.

Why? I need a reason besides the idea that you need 9 sets per muscle group.

[u]This is the reason Pull-ups are better.[/u]

With pullups, you have fewer synergists, which then means that your latissimus dorsi will be used MORE than with a lat pull down. Pullups and pulldowns both have these working as synergists:

Brachialis, Brachioradialis, Biceps Brachii, Teres Major, Rhomboids, Levator Scapulae, Pectoralis Minor, Trapezius, and the Lower Pectoralis Major.

Now, with pulldowns, you have 3 more muscles helping you, thus taking more work away from the latissimus dorsi (those being the posterior deltoid, infraspinatus, and middle trapezius).

[u]This is why BOTH are better than ONE.[/u]

From a physique building standpoint, which I was coming from, using both are better than just using one. I would recommend using pullups before pulldowns in your routine. The reason for this is because that will allow your lats to be worked to its maximum. Pulldowns would then be added after the pull-ups to help build up the accompaning muscles that help build aesthetic lats (i.e. infraspinitus, rear delts), as well as further tearing down your latissimus dorsi muscle (thus causing it to hypertrophy more).

Any questions?
[/quote]

In my experience ditching lat pull downs completely will be one of the best thing you can do to challenge yourself and get mass/width onto your back, and thats what this is all about right!

If you need more back width work after fatiguing on the chinning bar (which should only ever be the case for intermediate/novice chinners) then you should simply work on negative chins and variations of negative chins (tempo, pause hold etc). I found settin goals and keeping a log of my chins a great way to help eek out one or two more each week… Oh yeah chalk is a great help too!

29

I wish I had a Nautilus pull-over machine to flood my lats with blood. It seems to be the only machine that every member of T-Nation approves of.

30

Lat pulldowns do have value in getting more good volume primarily using the lats. Most people can only get so many pullups with good form using their lats, and at a certain point the lats are going to be too fatigued to do a sufficient volume in pullups.

At this point pulldowns can be valuable. There are ways around this though, you need a way to subtract some weight from your body, whether it be a band or someone holding your legs. Poliquin has a good progression for increasing pullups. The one thing you never want to do is to do the piece of shit assisted pullup machines in my opinion they are even worse than pulldowns because of the momentum that can come from the assist arm.

It is very important in my opinion to change regularly from supinated to pronated pullups.

31

Why the debate? I do lat pulldowns. I have done Pull ups in the past. They both have a place, however, many larger bodybuilders no longer do pull ups. I think many people in earlier stages could benefit from pull ups but it seems like some here turn their noses up at those using a lat pull down machine and that makes no sense at all.

Cybex has a new machine (that my gym got about a year ago) that is a plate loaded variation of a lat machine. It is the best thing I could have added and my lats have improved as a result. I’m glad I didn’t avoid it just so I could say I “only” use pull ups.

32

A pulldown machine offes more variety, narrow parallel grip, wide parallel grip, angled grip etc. Most gyms dont offer a pull up station with that variety.

Hell, you can even do one arm pull downs.

Pudz does pulldowns, but he lacks functional strength.

33

I have seen Ronnie Coleman and Branch Warren doing pulldowns, I havent seen them doing pullups tho. I also read a article on www.westside-barbell.com/ about back training and if I remember correctly Louie Simmons said every one at westside does lat pulldown.

There is nothing wrong with it and I think it should be a staple excercise.

34

There wouldn’t even be a debate on this if everyone did pulldowns correctly. After doing pulldowns, you will feel it in your lats-if done correctly.

35

Do both!