[quote]UtahLama wrote:
…it’s not going to change anybody’s opinion on Bonds/Clemens/Armstrong. If you liked them before, you like them now.
what a joke.[/quote]
Bonds was one of my favorite players pre-PEDs. Can’t stand him now. Just saiyan.
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
…it’s not going to change anybody’s opinion on Bonds/Clemens/Armstrong. If you liked them before, you like them now.
what a joke.[/quote]
Bonds was one of my favorite players pre-PEDs. Can’t stand him now. Just saiyan.[/quote]
Hahaha I understand…but that might have been from him switching teams? Or perhaps turning into a gigantic asshole?
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
…it’s not going to change anybody’s opinion on Bonds/Clemens/Armstrong. If you liked them before, you like them now.
what a joke.[/quote]
Bonds was one of my favorite players pre-PEDs. Can’t stand him now. Just saiyan.[/quote]
Hahaha I understand…but that might have been from him switching teams? Or perhaps turning into a gigantic asshole?[/quote]
The fact that he’s a major dick is definitely a part of it. But the PEDs and his lying about PEDs bothered me too. I’m not against athletes using them but it should be a level playing field. Either nobody gets to use them or everybody gets to use them.
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
…it’s not going to change anybody’s opinion on Bonds/Clemens/Armstrong. If you liked them before, you like them now.
what a joke.[/quote]
Bonds was one of my favorite players pre-PEDs. Can’t stand him now. Just saiyan.[/quote]
Hahaha I understand…but that might have been from him switching teams? Or perhaps turning into a gigantic asshole?[/quote]
The fact that he’s a major dick is definitely a part of it. But the PEDs and his lying about PEDs bothered me too. I’m not against athletes using them but it should be a level playing field. Either nobody gets to use them or everybody gets to use them.[/quote]
Agreed.
But IMO the majority of major league-rs were using during that era…no testing, and you know other people are, so they probably felt like they had no choice. They had to use to compete.
how’s a guy who’s won 7 times, never failed any test given(more than 500) lose his title to a goverment
agency that over steped their authority and was already under investigation and cleared. i noticed not
one person ever came forward (the 10 witnesses) durring this whole time, a bit suspicious, dont you?
also where does it say that armstrong lied? because he decided to stop fighting? he must’ve lost a lot
of money defending himself.
[quote]bartonmlee wrote:
also where does it say that armstrong lied? because he decided to stop fighting? he must’ve lost a lot
of money defending himself.[/quote]
That’s what several legal experts estimated…10 million + over the life of his litigation
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
^^^ dude, that’s awesome! One of my all time favorite jokes is from Leary: " Lou Gehrig died of Lou Gehrig’s disease. How did he not see that coming?" Gets me every time.[/quote]
No Cure for Cancer is one of the greatest stand up routines of all time, no question.[/quote]
Agreed. I still quote it way more than I probably should, considering it’s gotta be 20 years old by now. Sorry about the hijack y’all.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
…it’s not going to change anybody’s opinion on Bonds/Clemens/Armstrong. If you liked them before, you like them now.
what a joke.[/quote]
Bonds was one of my favorite players pre-PEDs. Can’t stand him now. Just saiyan.[/quote]
Hahaha I understand…but that might have been from him switching teams? Or perhaps turning into a gigantic asshole?[/quote]
The fact that he’s a major dick is definitely a part of it. But the PEDs and his lying about PEDs bothered me too. I’m not against athletes using them but it should be a level playing field. Either nobody gets to use them or everybody gets to use them.[/quote]
Agreed.
But IMO the majority of major league-rs were using during that era…no testing, and you know other people are, so they probably felt like they had no choice. They had to use to compete.[/quote]
What really sent Bonds over the edge is when McGwire and Sosa started cracking all those homers. Bonds was like WTF? Juice time baby.
Dint give any fucks about cycling before, and i still dont care even in the slightest.
[quote]Aggv wrote:
Dint give any fucks about cycling before, and i still dont care even in the slightest. [/quote]
Exactly.
I mean little kids ride bikes every day, and you don’t see anyone making a big deal about it.
lol
I thought the issue was some kind of blood tranfusion and not TRT?
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
^^ I don’t Nesecarily agree with “is going to use” but I definitely agree with you otherwise.
Some people’s moral or religious views would prevent them from using but I agree that the temptation is there.[/quote]
By and large, morals disappear in the face of $ millions.[/quote]
I think the fear of bullshit laws tends to evaporate in a flash if you have the chance to make dozens of millions and get laid like a rockstar.
[quote]Aggv wrote:
Dint give any fucks about cycling before, and i still dont care even in the slightest. [/quote]
Yet here you are.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
^^ I don’t Nesecarily agree with “is going to use” but I definitely agree with you otherwise.
Some people’s moral or religious views would prevent them from using but I agree that the temptation is there.[/quote]
By and large, morals disappear in the face of $ millions.[/quote]
I think the fear of bullshit laws tends to evaporate in a flash if you have the chance to make dozens of millions and get laid like a rockstar.
[/quote]
No it is a moral issue. By participating in the sport they agree not to use substances. They are lying and cheating by using said substancses
[quote]denisined wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
^^ I don’t Nesecarily agree with “is going to use” but I definitely agree with you otherwise.
Some people’s moral or religious views would prevent them from using but I agree that the temptation is there.[/quote]
By and large, morals disappear in the face of $ millions.[/quote]
I think the fear of bullshit laws tends to evaporate in a flash if you have the chance to make dozens of millions and get laid like a rockstar.
[/quote]
No it is a moral issue. By participating in the sport they agree not to use substances. They are lying and cheating by using said substancses[/quote]
You’ve clearly not been around the high levels of any sport. Forget sports even, a lot of things in life are that way. When you want to be at the top, you do what you can to get an edge, and you stay at the top by managing public relations and by not getting caught. Everyone tries to work their way around the rules, some get caught.
This happens in every single sport. It happens within the management of every single large organization. It happens with anyone who’s been truly successful in the business arena. It happens in politics. It happens in religious organizations. It happens in research. Between universities, etc.
In the case of research, it’s biasing the data in your favor… but not so much that it’s fraud. In the case of business, it’s tax sheltering… but not so far that it’s tax evasion. Of course, some people cross the line, and some of them get caught. Some don’t.
The ones who kind of sort of bent the rules but not so much that anyone’s able to prove it, they’re the ones who get to the top and stay there.
It’s not really a moral or ethical issue at all.
I don’t personally know the guy so I can’t say anything for his character but if you had been accused countless times of cheating, lived through a hellish illness and worked your butt off day in and day out for years to be the best wouldn’t you just be finished with it at some point?
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. He’s done winning cases and it changing nothing. He’s sane.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]denisined wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
^^ I don’t Nesecarily agree with “is going to use” but I definitely agree with you otherwise.
Some people’s moral or religious views would prevent them from using but I agree that the temptation is there.[/quote]
By and large, morals disappear in the face of $ millions.[/quote]
I think the fear of bullshit laws tends to evaporate in a flash if you have the chance to make dozens of millions and get laid like a rockstar.
[/quote]
No it is a moral issue. By participating in the sport they agree not to use substances. They are lying and cheating by using said substancses[/quote]
You’ve clearly not been around the high levels of any sport. Forget sports even, a lot of things in life are that way. When you want to be at the top, you do what you can to get an edge, and you stay at the top by managing public relations and by not getting caught. Everyone tries to work their way around the rules, some get caught.
This happens in every single sport. It happens within the management of every single large organization. It happens with anyone who’s been truly successful in the business arena. It happens in politics. It happens in religious organizations. It happens in research. Between universities, etc.
In the case of research, it’s biasing the data in your favor… but not so much that it’s fraud. In the case of business, it’s tax sheltering… but not so far that it’s tax evasion. Of course, some people cross the line, and some of them get caught. Some don’t.
The ones who kind of sort of bent the rules but not so much that anyone’s able to prove it, they’re the ones who get to the top and stay there.
It’s not really a moral or ethical issue at all.[/quote]
That’s a ridiculous argument. That other liars and cheaters exist does not diminish the ethics or morality of your own lying or cheating.
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]denisined wrote:
No it is a moral issue. By participating in the sport they agree not to use substances. They are lying and cheating by using said substancses[/quote]
You’ve clearly not been around the high levels of any sport. Forget sports even, a lot of things in life are that way. When you want to be at the top, you do what you can to get an edge, and you stay at the top by managing public relations and by not getting caught. Everyone tries to work their way around the rules, some get caught.
This happens in every single sport. It happens within the management of every single large organization. It happens with anyone who’s been truly successful in the business arena. It happens in politics. It happens in religious organizations. It happens in research. Between universities, etc.
In the case of research, it’s biasing the data in your favor… but not so much that it’s fraud. In the case of business, it’s tax sheltering… but not so far that it’s tax evasion. Of course, some people cross the line, and some of them get caught. Some don’t.
The ones who kind of sort of bent the rules but not so much that anyone’s able to prove it, they’re the ones who get to the top and stay there.
It’s not really a moral or ethical issue at all.[/quote]
That’s a ridiculous argument. That other liars and cheaters exist does not diminish the ethics or morality of your own lying or cheating.
[/quote]
I suppose I phrased it wrong. The issues of morals and ethics at those levels become a lot less black and white, and much more like many shades of grey. If say, a marathon runner hopped in a car and got a ride for part of the race, most would say that’s clearly cheating. If a marathon runner trained their ass off, and took steroids during the offseason, but had everything flushed out by the time they were tested, some people would say that’s cheating, some wouldn’t.
If the rule – as enforced – is based on not having steroids in your system when tested, and you want people to adhere to the rule – as written – to not use steroids at all… then you need to adjust the enforcement policy. Which means, more frequent testing.
If the law is to not speed on the highway, but there’s only one radar checkpoint, then many people will be breaking the law, most of the time. If you have radar checkpoints every quarter mile, then less people will be speeding. There is a difference between the law/rule as written, the spirit of the law/rule, and the actual reality of the enforcement of that law/rule.
Or, sticking to the theme of this site… if you’re competing in a natty federation, it’s clearly considered cheating to use steroids or TRT. But is DHEA cheating? Is eating a ton of egg yolks cheating? In all three cases, you’re making intentional changes to increase testosterone production. If one competitor gets a lot of dietary cholesterol, but the others don’t, is that or isn’t that an unfair advantage? Are we talking about the actual rule, or the “spirit of the rule”?
There’s a lot of grey areas, and at elite levels (in anything), many times the success comes down to navigating these grey areas.
If a guy cons someone into giving them money, it’s not ok. If a guy decides to incorporate his business in Delaware to pay less corporate taxes (which is legal, but still evasive), is that wrong?
Black-and-white styled morality is a luxury the elite don’t usually have.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Yeah, this is bullshit. No one at that level is clean so it’s a fair playing field.[/quote]
This is a great day for cycling. Yes, Lance cheated and every top ten finisher in the Tour De France is doped to the gills as well. Real fans of cycling have always known that doping exists in the sport. Until the stable is cleaned out it will always smell. Start with the biggest and then the rest. For those that follow cycling, I have far more respect for a rider like David Moncoutie who finishes 13th or so in the Tour every year versus the epic performances Lance dished out every day. Lance generating 450 watts of power on the Mont Ventoux (year 2000) rhymes with absolutely nothing.
We just have to accept the fact that Lance will go down as the biggest fraudster in sports and has finally been nailed. The question is why did it take so long to bring him down. In fact, he had a positive dope test that was supposedly covered up the by UCI in the 2001 Tour of Suisse. Credit to the USADA for having he balls took take down a larger than life guy like Lance. The only thing that sucks is the waste of tax dollars that was required for all this.
Catching Lance sends out the stongest possible message to all those who dope or are thinking of doping - you are never too big to fail.