Lance Armstrong is the greatest cyclist of all-time. This won’t TOUCH his legacy AT ALL. Anyone who thinks he isn’t the GOAT to ever ride a bike is crazy and a hater.
That means you JACKED71. You stupid-fake moronic p***y (smiles).
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Lance Armstrong is the greatest cyclist of all-time. This won’t TOUCH his legacy AT ALL. Anyone who thinks he isn’t the GOAT to ever ride a bike is crazy and a hater.
That means you JACKED71. You stupid-fake moronic p***y (smiles). [/quote]
Goat?
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Lance Armstrong is the greatest cyclist of all-time.[/quote]
Um no. Not even close. Eddy Merckx was far and away the greatest cyclist of all time. There’s no debate: 525 Victories
5 Tour de France
5 Giro
1 Vuelta
3 World championships
1 Amateur world championship
7 Milan-San Remo
2 Tour of Flanders
3 Paris-Roubaix
5 Liège-Bastogne-Liège
2 Amstel Gold races
2 Tour of Lombardy
2 Het Volk
3 Ghent-Wevelgem
3 Flèche-Wallonne
1 Paris-Brussels
As to the rest of your post, I agree.
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]denisined wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
^^ I don’t Nesecarily agree with “is going to use” but I definitely agree with you otherwise.
Some people’s moral or religious views would prevent them from using but I agree that the temptation is there.[/quote]
By and large, morals disappear in the face of $ millions.[/quote]
I think the fear of bullshit laws tends to evaporate in a flash if you have the chance to make dozens of millions and get laid like a rockstar.
[/quote]
No it is a moral issue. By participating in the sport they agree not to use substances. They are lying and cheating by using said substancses[/quote]
You’ve clearly not been around the high levels of any sport. Forget sports even, a lot of things in life are that way. When you want to be at the top, you do what you can to get an edge, and you stay at the top by managing public relations and by not getting caught. Everyone tries to work their way around the rules, some get caught.
This happens in every single sport. It happens within the management of every single large organization. It happens with anyone who’s been truly successful in the business arena. It happens in politics. It happens in religious organizations. It happens in research. Between universities, etc.
In the case of research, it’s biasing the data in your favor… but not so much that it’s fraud. In the case of business, it’s tax sheltering… but not so far that it’s tax evasion. Of course, some people cross the line, and some of them get caught. Some don’t.
The ones who kind of sort of bent the rules but not so much that anyone’s able to prove it, they’re the ones who get to the top and stay there.
It’s not really a moral or ethical issue at all.[/quote]
That’s a ridiculous argument. That other liars and cheaters exist does not diminish the ethics or morality of your own lying or cheating.
[/quote]
Yup, but that goes in both directions.
It makes it neither better nor worse.
[quote]denisined wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
^^ I don’t Nesecarily agree with “is going to use” but I definitely agree with you otherwise.
Some people’s moral or religious views would prevent them from using but I agree that the temptation is there.[/quote]
By and large, morals disappear in the face of $ millions.[/quote]
I think the fear of bullshit laws tends to evaporate in a flash if you have the chance to make dozens of millions and get laid like a rockstar.
[/quote]
No it is a moral issue. By participating in the sport they agree not to use substances. They are lying and cheating by using said substancses[/quote]
First of all they are not cheating.
Pretty much everyone at the TDF uses and they all know that everyone else uses.
Second, yes, they lie and yes it is a moral issue.
To accept the world as given though and then judge the people acting in it is a bit iffy.
Whether their lying was completely unjustified depends in part on what organization made what rules for what purposes and whether all of that can be justified in the first place.
[quote]JACKED71 wrote:
Catching Lance sends out the stongest possible message to all those who dope or are thinking of doping - you are never too big to fail.[/quote]
Problem is, he was not caught.
He is simply no longer fighting their allegations.
Now in their mind and in your mind that might mean something, but so far they did not prove anything.
[quote]dcb wrote:
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Lance Armstrong is the greatest cyclist of all-time.[/quote]
Um no. Not even close. Eddy Merckx was far and away the greatest cyclist of all time. There’s no debate: 525 Victories
5 Tour de France
5 Giro
1 Vuelta
3 World championships
1 Amateur world championship
7 Milan-San Remo
2 Tour of Flanders
3 Paris-Roubaix
5 Li�??�?�¨ge-Bastogne-Li�??�?�¨ge
2 Amstel Gold races
2 Tour of Lombardy
2 Het Volk
3 Ghent-Wevelgem
3 Fl�??�?�¨che-Wallonne
1 Paris-Brussels
As to the rest of your post, I agree.[/quote]
Okay he has more victories so that’s a statement on longevity. Sometimes when you’re looking at the GOAT you may have to slightly discount the length of career as a prevailing factor, especially if the other guy has 7 Tour de Frances. Let me use a tennis example: Rafael Nadal COULD (hypothetically and emphasised because it looks like he’s on the decline) finish his career with more ATP 1000 Master wins than Federer. Would that mean he’d be seen as being better than Federer, especially in light of the fact Federer would have more Slams under this hypothetical scenario? Any rational sports fan would say no.
7 titles is no joke and straight crazy - and then you factor in the level of competition. Plus, Armstrong put cycling ON THE MAP. A large reason MJ will always be the GOAT to step on the court is because of how he elevated the popularity of basketball and how he became an icon (probably the most well-known athlete in history ahead of Ali). You could say he revolutionised the game. Armstrong is to cycling what MJ is to basketball - a revolutionary figure.
'Nuff said [Victor Cruz end zone dance].
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]JACKED71 wrote:
Catching Lance sends out the stongest possible message to all those who dope or are thinking of doping - you are never too big to fail.[/quote]
Problem is, he was not caught.
He is simply no longer fighting their allegations.
Now in their mind and in your mind that might mean something, but so far they did not prove anything. [/quote]
This is the part about it that bugs me. As far as I know they have zero physical evidence that he doped during his Tour victories. I read somewhere that they have blood tests from 2009-10 which are consistent with blood doping, but that was years after his last Tour victory. All I’ve read about their “evidence” is that it includes testimony from 10ish other people (who were not named) and e-mails between him and Landis and other team members. Well whoop dee fucking doo, that doesn’t prove a goddamn thing. If he is to be stripped of his Tour de France titles one would think there would have to be physical evidence that there was a banned substance in his body or that a banned method was utilized; as best I can tell no such evidence exists.
From the WADA website in a statement on the issue:
“It is relevant to note, however, that the anti-doping rules violations alleged and outlined in USADAâ??s charge letter to Mr. Armstrong are based on conspiracy and fraud.”
If his titles can be stripped based on allegations of conspiracy and fraud without a shred of physical evidence, I may have to admit to losing some faith in the system. Though it certainly wouldn’t be the first time my faith has been shaken.
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]JACKED71 wrote:
Catching Lance sends out the stongest possible message to all those who dope or are thinking of doping - you are never too big to fail.[/quote]
Problem is, he was not caught.
He is simply no longer fighting their allegations.
Now in their mind and in your mind that might mean something, but so far they did not prove anything. [/quote]
This is the part about it that bugs me. As far as I know they have zero physical evidence that he doped during his Tour victories. I read somewhere that they have blood tests from 2009-10 which are consistent with blood doping, but that was years after his last Tour victory. All I’ve read about their “evidence” is that it includes testimony from 10ish other people (who were not named) and e-mails between him and Landis and other team members. Well whoop dee fucking doo, that doesn’t prove a goddamn thing. If he is to be stripped of his Tour de France titles one would think there would have to be physical evidence that there was a banned substance in his body or that a banned method was utilized; as best I can tell no such evidence exists.
From the WADA website in a statement on the issue:
“It is relevant to note, however, that the anti-doping rules violations alleged and outlined in USADAâ??s charge letter to Mr. Armstrong are based on conspiracy and fraud.”
If his titles can be stripped based on allegations of conspiracy and fraud without a shred of physical evidence, I may have to admit to losing some faith in the system. Though it certainly wouldn’t be the first time my faith has been shaken.[/quote]
You still have faith in the system?
How old are you?
[quote]orion wrote:
You still have faith in the system?[/quote]
Not an awful lot these days, but probably more than is deserved.
[quote]orion wrote:
How old are you?[/quote]
- Old enough to know better.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]denisined wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
^^ I don’t Nesecarily agree with “is going to use” but I definitely agree with you otherwise.
Some people’s moral or religious views would prevent them from using but I agree that the temptation is there.[/quote]
By and large, morals disappear in the face of $ millions.[/quote]
I think the fear of bullshit laws tends to evaporate in a flash if you have the chance to make dozens of millions and get laid like a rockstar.
[/quote]
No it is a moral issue. By participating in the sport they agree not to use substances. They are lying and cheating by using said substancses[/quote]
First of all they are not cheating.
Pretty much everyone at the TDF uses and they all know that everyone else uses.
Second, yes, they lie and yes it is a moral issue.
To accept the world as given though and then judge the people acting in it is a bit iffy.
Whether their lying was completely unjustified depends in part on what organization made what rules for what purposes and whether all of that can be justified in the first place.
[/quote]
Just because everyone is doing it does not make it cheating. They are breaking the rules thus cheating. You are not justifying your stance on them not cheating.
[quote]JACKED71 wrote:
Catching Lance sends out the stongest possible message to all those who dope or are thinking of doping - you are never too big to fail.[/quote]
So let me read this strongest possible message:
After you perform spectacularly with PEDs [and cash in bigtime and bang popstars]
some guys will spend time and money [mostly taxpayer’s millions]
to catch [imply weakly]
or harass [your competent shyster-team]
you [after your career is over]
until the truth is out [ ← that sentence doesn’t pretend to be more the empty rethoric]
Yes, I imagine Armstrong seriously considering being mildly annoyed.
The notion here that they “all” cheat and thus should not diminish the results of LA is flawed logic. If you are cheating and test positive, your results should be stripped - simple as that. Some top cyclists like Ivan Basso, Jan Ulrich and more recently Alberto Contador have all served suspensions for doping offences. In Contador’s case, he has had some of his results overturned, like the Tour of Italy for example. Lance should not be an exception to this rule.
The notion here that they “all” cheat and thus should not diminish the results of LA is flawed logic. If you are cheating and test positive, your results should be stripped - simple as that. Some top cyclists like Ivan Basso, Jan Ulrich and more recently Alberto Contador have all served suspensions for doping offences. In Contador’s case, he has had some of his results overturned, like the Tour of Italy for example. Lance should not be an exception to this rule.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
^^ I don’t Nesecarily agree with “is going to use” but I definitely agree with you otherwise.
Some people’s moral or religious views would prevent them from using but I agree that the temptation is there.[/quote]
By and large, morals disappear in the face of $ millions.[/quote]
Morals? Many people believe the rules and laws banning PED use are wrong so breaking a rule like that does not create a moral dilemma. And when you add in that everyone else is doing it, it doesn’t really count as cheating as you are not giving yourself an advantage that others don’t already have.
[quote]JACKED71 wrote:
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Yeah, this is bullshit. No one at that level is clean so it’s a fair playing field.[/quote]
This is a great day for cycling. Yes, Lance cheated and every top ten finisher in the Tour De France is doped to the gills as well. Real fans of cycling have always known that doping exists in the sport. Until the stable is cleaned out it will always smell. Start with the biggest and then the rest. For those that follow cycling, I have far more respect for a rider like David Moncoutie who finishes 13th or so in the Tour every year versus the epic performances Lance dished out every day. Lance generating 450 watts of power on the Mont Ventoux (year 2000) rhymes with absolutely nothing.
We just have to accept the fact that Lance will go down as the biggest fraudster in sports and has finally been nailed. The question is why did it take so long to bring him down. In fact, he had a positive dope test that was supposedly covered up the by UCI in the 2001 Tour of Suisse. Credit to the USADA for having he balls took take down a larger than life guy like Lance. The only thing that sucks is the waste of tax dollars that was required for all this.
Catching Lance sends out the stongest possible message to all those who dope or are thinking of doping - you are never too big to fail.[/quote]
Nailed? Based on what? If they come forward with actual evidence that’s one thing but to accuse someone and challenge them to years of investigating and hearings, at his expense of course, is wrong. It is not a level playing field. If Lance, after several years and several millions, wins, what happens to those who brought the charges? Nothing. They have nothing to lose…except other people’s money. If Lance wins, he loses, unless the USADA compensates him for his losses. As if that would happen. It’s not the first time someone has not fought charges because it would cost them more to fight.
[quote]dcb wrote:
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Lance Armstrong is the greatest cyclist of all-time.[/quote]
Um no. Not even close. Eddy Merckx was far and away the greatest cyclist of all time. There’s no debate: 525 Victories
5 Tour de France
5 Giro
1 Vuelta
3 World championships
1 Amateur world championship
7 Milan-San Remo
2 Tour of Flanders
3 Paris-Roubaix
5 Li�¨ge-Bastogne-Li�¨ge
2 Amstel Gold races
2 Tour of Lombardy
2 Het Volk
3 Ghent-Wevelgem
3 Fl�¨che-Wallonne
1 Paris-Brussels
As to the rest of your post, I agree.[/quote]
Is he still the best if he failed multiple screenings and was disqualified?
[quote]denisined wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]denisined wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
^^ I don’t Nesecarily agree with “is going to use” but I definitely agree with you otherwise.
Some people’s moral or religious views would prevent them from using but I agree that the temptation is there.[/quote]
By and large, morals disappear in the face of $ millions.[/quote]
I think the fear of bullshit laws tends to evaporate in a flash if you have the chance to make dozens of millions and get laid like a rockstar.
[/quote]
No it is a moral issue. By participating in the sport they agree not to use substances. They are lying and cheating by using said substancses[/quote]
First of all they are not cheating.
Pretty much everyone at the TDF uses and they all know that everyone else uses.
Second, yes, they lie and yes it is a moral issue.
To accept the world as given though and then judge the people acting in it is a bit iffy.
Whether their lying was completely unjustified depends in part on what organization made what rules for what purposes and whether all of that can be justified in the first place.
[/quote]
Just because everyone is doing it does not make it cheating. They are breaking the rules thus cheating. You are not justifying your stance on them not cheating.
[/quote]
Well, in the sense that he has no real advantage if everyone is juiced to the gills it is not cheating.
If I was an up and coming cyclist I would also ponder whether I owe any loyalty to organizations that know perfectly well what goes on and insist on BS rules anyway so as to not stir up a shitstorm.
To give up your one chance to make it big to support the hypocrisy of more or less self appointed officials is a tad more than being honest, that is being a saint and you do not come out of that option with clean hands either.
He did not kill anyone, he did not really lie more than necessary, he just juiced and beat other juicers fair and square.
He did not make the playing field any dirtier than he found it, he just got a bit of dirt on himself because it was dirty to begin with.
For me that is among the negligible and forgivable sins.
[quote]JACKED71 wrote:
The notion here that they “all” cheat and thus should not diminish the results of LA is flawed logic. If you are cheating and test positive, your results should be stripped - simple as that. Some top cyclists like Ivan Basso, Jan Ulrich and more recently Alberto Contador have all served suspensions for doping offences. In Contador’s case, he has had some of his results overturned, like the Tour of Italy for example. Lance should not be an exception to this rule.[/quote]
What is evidence that he ever tested positive? A bunch of hearsay and rumors is all I’ve heard so far. So that, in your mind, is justification to strip him of 7 titles?
I say this every time this shit happens: the people who are the most deeply offended by this sort of thing are all the slightly above average athletes who want to believe drugs are the only thing that separated them from the Big Show. It’s just so hard for people to admit that elite athletes like Lance Armstrong were elite before they used drugs. They only got to that position because they were already the .1%-ers.
And cheating is something that gives an athlete an unfair advantage. When all athletes have access to the same drugs and all are using them, it is no longer cheating. The problem has now become antiquated rules.
[quote]JACKED71 wrote:
The notion here that they “all” cheat and thus should not diminish the results of LA is flawed logic. If you are cheating and test positive, your results should be stripped - simple as that. Some top cyclists like Ivan Basso, Jan Ulrich and more recently Alberto Contador have all served suspensions for doping offences. In Contador’s case, he has had some of his results overturned, like the Tour of Italy for example. Lance should not be an exception to this rule.[/quote]
Problem is, Lance PASSED all of his drug tests. Over 500 of them. 500.
What the USADA is doing is akin to a cop accosting a citizen he decides must have done something wrong, because they look suspicious to him, subjecting this citizen to all kinds of searches, probes and questioning well beyond what anyone who wasn’t caught actually engaged in a criminal act should expect to endure, waiting for that citizen to finally become fed up with an interrogation that he has been singled out for, for whatever reason, and finally arresting him for failure to comply with a police investigation when he finally gets fed up with the persecution.
If the 500+ drug tests were not enough to determine guilt over a period of more than a decade, then they need to work on putting more stringent testing protocols in place (also stupid, I think) rather than retroactively harassing someone for doping for YEARS until they finally give up, then sniveling, “See, the fact that he decided not to fight our charges is clear evidence he was a cheat.”
Assholes.