I was watching that stupid show on Fit TV last night called “The Gym” and the female trainer with the smoker’s voice and the tattoos made this big deal about making sure your knees never go past your toes when squatting. Like your knees are going to explode or something. To me it sounds like an excuse to keep from doing REAL squats. My wife teaches an aerobic weight lifting class called “bodypump” and she said the same thing. “never let your knees go past your toes. It’s bad”. I laughed and got in trouble. Anyway, am I right in thinking that’s this is a modern training myth (like never do hurdler’s stretch, or don’t let your elbows drop below parallel to the ground on bench press or shoulder press will destroy your shoulder, or deadlifts will kill you…?)blah…blah…blah…
From what I have read, it is fine to let your knees go past to some extent. For example for taller guys, their knees have to go past if they go past parallel or ATG squats. Also, if you don’t let them go past, you may end up hurting your back.
I’ve seen these trainers demonstrate the squat and what they do is stick their butts WAAAAYYYY out so that their torso is almost parallel to the ground before they even bend their knees. Then they only go down 1/2 way (full squats are also bad for your knees, don’t ya’ know?).
Your knees should follow the angle of your feet (or toes) as you descend, but I think your squatting style and the “geometry” of your body determine whether they can pass your toes, especially when you squat ATG. I have heard this from people who are learning to box squat or only go to parallel, as keeping their knees back will shift the weight to work the posterior chain. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. I’ve heard stranger things in my time.
Yup, the way many trainers espouse it is a myth.
It’s not a bad cue for PL squats, though.
-Dan
Covered in detail here:
Squating with you knees over your toes puts excess strain on your knee cap which is held in place with ligaments.
I keep my toes behind as much as possible.
[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
Squating with you knees over your toes puts excess strain on your knee cap which is held in place with ligaments.
I keep my toes behind as much as possible.
[/quote]
Please tell me this is a joke. This myth has been debunked here at least a million times.
This is no joke, I graduated college 2003 with a B.S in Kinesiology Pre-Physical Therapy.
I was told by my professors (many who were former employees of the Mayo Clinic) that positioning your knees over your toe line would put you in danger of knee and patellar tendon injuries. This was discussed in depth in our Bio-Mechanics and Exercise Physiology classes.
Now I’m being told that it is ok, by what I consider a very reputable source T-Nation’s Eric Cressey.
My personal opinion would be to go as low as you can with out hurting yourself, or lighten your load so you can get a full ROM.
[quote]Jason B wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
Squating with you knees over your toes puts excess strain on your knee cap which is held in place with ligaments.
I keep my toes behind as much as possible.
Please tell me this is a joke. This myth has been debunked here at least a million times.[/quote]
What I wrote above is true. sitting for too long puts excess train on several parts of the body but I don’t avoid sitting at work.
What I draw from Cressey’s article is you can squat with your toes over you knees if you want to but that is up to you.
I choose not to as I am more comfortable keeping my knees back.
Squat how you want to…I could care less.
Your response is a joke.
The reason a trainer on tv will say “don’t let your knees go past your toes” is that she’s speaking to millions of couch potatoes who have never squatted, never seen some one squat, but will sure as hell try it if they see it on their new favorite workout show.
While lettting your knees travel past your toes might not directly be the cause of strain, you have to realize what some people do when they squat. I’ve tried teaching some people to squat and the first thing that happens is that their kneees go forward…way forward, and their hips drop straight down, rather than back.
This keeps happening as they descend and they end up practically on their toes with their knees almost a foot beyond their toes. This is all after I said, push your hips back, sit back, etc.
So, when you give general exercise technique, like on that show, or in bodypump, you have to keep things like this in mind. We, the people reading this website, are not the general exercising public. We know our bodies much better than the average gym bunny. That trainer telling people to not squat past their toes probably saved a lot of people some serious knee pain.
I’m a powerlifter, so I try and maintain the shins as vertical as possible. But, sometimes to mix things up, I do want I call Hi Bar Squats. This is a hi bar placement on the traps, feet about 10 to 12 inches apart and elevated on 10 pound plates. I go down until my butt touches my calves and come back up. I have gone up to 315 pounds for reps using this style.
I promise you my knees pass my toes - but I will also tell you that you will get killer sore the next two days in the legs - even if you are used to squatting much higher weight in a powerlifting stance.
Are all of the behind the toe people completely missing this in the article:
“The researchers found that restricting the forward excursion of the knees during the squat increased anterior lean of the trunk and promoted an increased “internal angle at the knees and ankles.” The results were a 22% decrease in knee torque and a 1070% increase in hip torque! Sure, they “saved” the knees by limiting stress on them, but those forces were transferred more than tenfold to the hips and lower back!”
This very clearly shows that while you may be slightly reducing the badness on the knees you are really are doing other, and more, damage elsewhere.
This is just one of those things that refuses to die even though many sources debunk it and thousands of people do it everyday with no issues. I have been squatting with knees over toes for about 18 years now and never had any knee problems.
The only people I usually hear stuff like this from are the same people who tell me lifting without a belt or doing straight legs deadlifts will ruin my back and that I can’t digest more than 30 grams of protein in any meal. It is all garbage and just because some fat egghead professor teaches it doesn’t mean it is right!
[quote]Jason B wrote:
“The researchers found that restricting the forward excursion of the knees during the squat increased anterior lean of the trunk and promoted an increased “internal angle at the knees and ankles.” The results were a 22% decrease in knee torque and a 1070% increase in hip torque! Sure, they “saved” the knees by limiting stress on them, but those forces were transferred more than tenfold to the hips and lower back!”
This very clearly shows that while you may be slightly reducing the badness on the knees you are really are doing other, and more, damage elsewhere.
This is just one of those things that refuses to die even though many sources debunk it and thousands of people do it everyday with no issues. I have been squatting with knees over toes for about 18 years now and never had any knee problems.
[/quote]
Two questions:
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How far past your toes do your knees travel? Mine go past as well, but not to the degree I see some people’s knees going. There is a difference between letting your knees go past your toes while squatting with good form, and having your knees way out in front of you as a result of horrible form. It is the latter that can be prevented when giving general information.
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Is torque actually a measurement of how much pressure is put on the joint. I was under the impression that torque was a measurement of force around a joint. Sitting back in a squat in order to keep your knees behind your toes will definitely shift work to your hips(which is why powerlifters squat this way, right?), which will increase torque. But, this doesn’t necessarily mean that this is a dangerous practice. The hips are built to withstand the bulk of the work while squatting. Am I mis-understanding this?
When trying to get a newb to squat, most won’t understand a “sit back” command as well as a “don’t let your knees go too far forward” command.
I am 6-5 and have long shins so my knees naturally go out past. If I didn’t let them I would tip backwards every time. I would say I have pretty good squat form.
I think the torque thing works both ways. You generate more but under more stress. It took me a while to teach my wife how to squat and deadlift decently. The biggest problem I see with newbs is not being able to sit back and bend at the knee at the same time, they want to only do one or the other. Squatting requires some coordination.
I am not saying it is wrong to keep your knees behind, but pointing out that letting them go past and that it hurts your knees is a myth that needs to die.
[Quote]Two questions:
-
How far past your toes do your knees travel? Mine go past as well, but not to the degree I see some people’s knees going. There is a difference between letting your knees go past your toes while squatting with good form, and having your knees way out in front of you as a result of horrible form. It is the latter that can be prevented when giving general information.
-
Is torque actually a measurement of how much pressure is put on the joint. I was under the impression that torque was a measurement of force around a joint. Sitting back in a squat in order to keep your knees behind your toes will definitely shift work to your hips(which is why powerlifters squat this way, right?), which will increase torque. But, this doesn’t necessarily mean that this is a dangerous practice. The hips are built to withstand the bulk of the work while squatting. Am I mis-understanding this?
When trying to get a newb to squat, most won’t understand a “sit back” command as well as a “don’t let your knees go too far forward” command.[/quote]
there is no absolute rule regarding this issue. personally, i minimize the distance my knees pass my toes given my physical dimensions. as in cressey’s article, i do a ‘happy medium’ between sitting back and sitting down.
i would definitely recommend that most people minimize the distance their knees travel past their toes . but this depends on the dimensions of a person, their experience level, and their knee flexibility.
i can say from personal experience that if i’m doing lunges or squats one day and i have a few ‘bad’ reps where my knees go past my toes more than they should, i have sore knees for a couple of days.
as far as torque being transferred to the hips, i’m sure the hips can handle much more than the knees, and there is absolutely no doubt that there are FAR MORE knee injuries incurred from squatting than hip injuries.
my personal experience is that as soon as I started going knees well past toes my knee pain stopped! and my VM improved dramatically…but I do the bodybuilder/olypmic squat…
I think powerliter style squats knees dont need to go past toes.
Granted it isn’t under anything but body weight but with sissy squats your knees go way past your toes.
If it hurts your knees to go past, then don’t do it. It is just the people who speak in absolutes that people should never do it that irritate me…Especially “professors”.
[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
Squating with you knees over your toes puts excess strain on your knee cap which is held in place with ligaments.
I keep my toes behind as much as possible.
[/quote]
Of course squatting will but some negligible extra strain on your knees, but if you keep knees behind your toes at all costs, and lean forward to compensate, you create incredible back shearing force that will be a problem.
I guess it’s up to you whether you want to put a little extra force on your knees by letting them track past your toes, or put a huge amount of shearing force on your lower back by keeping your knees back.
I do a lot of high bar squat and my knees don’t really come in front of my toes a lot, it had to do with sitting between the legs.