Knee Stability Advice?

Training Bodybuilding
1

Yo. Just wondering if any of you with knee issues have any favorite exercises. Especially for stability… Maybe you learned them from rehab, maybe just whatever your favorites are.

I had a slight tear last summer (trying to cycle cross country… too much, too fast), and now am back with full mobility, squats, deadlifts… Everything. It just bothers me when I get fatigued. Like, after my squats and maybe halfway through my deadlift routine. I’m still slowly bringing the weights up.

Actually, heres a rundown of my routine I work legs 2 days a week:

day 1 - upper body pushing (exercises omitted)
day 2 - upper body pull (exercises omitted)

day 3 - leg day
warm up (bike, light leg extentions, light leg curls)
squats (3-4 sets to parallel)
deadlifts (4 sets)
leg extentions (3 sets)
leg curls (3 sets)
calf machine (4 sets)

day 4 - off

day 5 - whole body push (i’ll just put the leg stuff in)
one leg sled press (3 sets)
leg extentions (3 sets)
calf machine (4 sets)

day 6 - whole body pull (again, just legs)
leg curls (3 sets)

day 7 - off

The hardest part is not leaning away from the weak knee trying to subconsciously protect it.

2

mithious, all I can say is been there done that. If I read your post right, sounds like that knee is still a bit weak. The best advise I can give is to make damn sure your knee doesn’t go past your toes when doing any form of exercising. When I was recovering from messing up my knee, one of the trainers at the gym helped me by showing me some tricks using a pole or the wall. You sally up to a wall or pole then do a squat or lunge while hanging on. You position yourself in such a way that if you knee starts going past you toes it will press against the wall. Also when doing leg presses, I put my hands on the outside of my knees. This keeps me from to keep them from spreading out putting pressure on the exterior of the knee joint.

3

[quote]dogsoldier wrote:
mithious, all I can say is been there done that. If I read your post right, sounds like that knee is still a bit weak. The best advise I can give is to make damn sure your knee doesn’t go past your toes when doing any form of exercising. When I was recovering from messing up my knee, one of the trainers at the gym helped me by showing me some tricks using a pole or the wall. You sally up to a wall or pole then do a squat or lunge while hanging on. You position yourself in such a way that if you knee starts going past you toes it will press against the wall. Also when doing leg presses, I put my hands on the outside of my knees. This keeps me from to keep them from spreading out putting pressure on the exterior of the knee joint.

[/quote]

Thanks for the response. I already do focus on not allowing the knee to go past the toes, but I appriciate the confirmation of that from someone else. I think the stationary lunges and one legged leg presses are helping… But they are hard as hell. And I can sure tell when I push it too far. It continues to improve however. I just have to remain patient.

No one else with favorite knee rehab exercises? No knee tear stories?

4

I found that he other day after doing lunges with a 90 degree knee caused the most pain I’d had in a year.

A week later i did toes past the knee lunges and 2 days later I did 1 legged squats deep on both knees for the first time ince surgery 3 years ago.

I’m not sure where I stand right now on the Knee toe issue. For me it’s fine as long as I dont go totally bottomed out squeezing calf to hammy, but or others it may be ok.

Then again I dont know what to expect in the future if I keep doing knee over toe single leg exercises.

5

[quote]Andrew Dixon wrote:
I found that he other day after doing lunges with a 90 degree knee caused the most pain I’d had in a year.

A week later i did toes past the knee lunges and 2 days later I did 1 legged squats deep on both knees for the first time ince surgery 3 years ago.

I’m not sure where I stand right now on the Knee toe issue. For me it’s fine as long as I dont go totally bottomed out squeezing calf to hammy, but or others it may be ok.

Then again I dont know what to expect in the future if I keep doing knee over toe single leg exercises.[/quote]

I’ve thought about the knee/toe issue over the years as well… I somewhat agree with the arguement that knee over the toe happens in atheletics, and not training and preparing for that event could be a mistake.

However, I know that for me, especially now, knee farther than the toe in any kind of pressing movement feels like it’s ready to tear again. Before the tear I would do 95% training behind the toe, and 5% (sissy squats or the like) beyond the toe.

I would think allot of this has to do with genetics, and the nature of the injury.

But what the heck do I know? I’m the one who tore my knee due to shear stupidity…

Anyway. Thanks for the response.

6

Why don’t you try some single leg exercises. You can find some inspiration here:
http://www.michaelboyle.biz/joomla/dmdocuments/New_Thoughts_on_Single_Leg_Training.pdf

7

Bulgarian split squats. Slow and steady.

8

Definitely single leg stuff (preferably single leg stuff only) until you are confident your knee is up to par. Mike Robinson had a good article on single leg exercises a while back.

9

About 3 years ago I tore a large piece of the front of my meniscus, leaving a big gap. For about 6-12 months after the initial recovery from the surgery, I would occasionally “tweak” the knee because it wasn’t stable enough to be running hard/cutting. I found that wearing a patella tendon strap (usually for tendonitis) gave me just enough stability to prevent an injury. I didn’t wear it to lift, only when playing soccer.

When lifting, I worked my weak points in the stability (mainly near full extension) by performing heavy deadlifts and holding it at the top, along with the usual array of single leg squats. My knee would literally shake at the top because of the instability. I’m convinced that this work really help stabilize it. Variety was key on the single leg stuff. It took a long time, but now the knee is very stable and I don’t wear any support for it.

I’d say try protecting the knee with some support to prevent another injury, and in the mean time be patient and keep working it hard with weights. It may take a year before you can ditch the support.

The reason I say that you want to protect the knee is that you might have a small amount of fluid in it, which can greatly destabilize the knee. This is what would happen when I would tweak my knee. I’d get a tiny bit of fluid build up and have to wait for it to go down before the knee was stable enough to safely play again (although I kept lifting through it).

10

I can’t believe the knees past toes issue is still being debated. Clearly the knees must pass the toes. Your current exercise selection sucks. Stop the extensions and curls. Front squat, and read up and implement the single leg stuff. Most knee injuries are hip related. Stretch those hip flexors, work on ankle mobility. Thank you to the guy who posted the mike boyle link. Read everything he’s written. good luck.

11

Just my $.02 from knee realignment surgeries and “clean-up” while they were in there on both legs. And, yes, the clinical term for what I have is “crappy knees”.

My current doc specializes in sports medicine and said that if he ever caught me doing a knee extension, he’d hurt me for undoing all his hard work. Any compound exercise at any weight I can tolerate is fine. Even running is fine to a limited extent. NO isolation work. Ever.

Due to the severity of the damage and the on-going nature of my problem, I do rehab work on my own a couple of times a week. Most of it is strengthening the smaller stabilizer muscles around the knee.

For instance, have 5 cones in a semi-circle around you (at 8, 10, 12, 2 and 4). Stand on one leg, reach out and touch each cone, returning to a standing position (with your foot still up) between each cone. They need to be far enough away that you can juuust barely reach them. Do them in sequence (8, 10, 12, 2, 4) and then reverse (4, 2, 12, 10, 8) without lowering your leg. That’s one. Do a couple of sets of 10.

And, yes, I do some Bosu and swiss ball work too. It’s rehab and I’ll use the tools that work for me. My rehab work is done on either rest or light days. It does NOT count as a workout, more as insurance to make sure I’m not sliced open again.

It’s been working for me. Two years post surgery and I’ve played football, skated, lifted regularly, hiked, rock climbed, etc. without a problem.

Good luck!
–76-SH

12

Holy Crap!

After not getting replies for a while I thought this post was dead, so I’ve been ignoring it. Oops…

Thanks for all the replies, links, stories, examples, ideas and support!

One leg is where it’s at… And I really hadn’t thought of them.

Since my last post I’ve added in stationary lunges (will work my way up from there), so my leg days (tue, thur, fri) look like this:

tue:
squat, deadlift, lunges.
(extensions, leg curls, calf raises)

thur:
single leg press, extensions, calf raises

fri:
stiff legged deadlifts
leg curls

I’ll have to do some research and learn some one legged movements and restructure my split a bit… It’s all about to change anyway because my tendons in my f-arms and biceps really need a break… So my focus will be on legs, core and cardio for the next bit. don’t know why i’m babbling on… this is all kindof unrelated…

Anyway - thanks!

13

One more thing. For a while I did bulg. squats (back leg up on bench) with chains hanging freely from the bar (got this from defrancostraining.com). I found it to be more useful than the bosu (I tried that too) in improving my stability on the field. I found that it worked my hips/core more than my ankles, which is what I felt with the bosu ball.

In general, I suspect adding instability is not what you need. My personal opinion is that adding weight to the bar will challenge your balance in a way that will be more functional. However, every exercise has its place and time.

14

First time I’ve looked at this board (insomnia! not sure why tonight). I’m not over 35, but will be there soon enough (31 now) and have torn up a knee. I am at the point where I’m squatting, deadlifting, and running (a little), but not at the point where it feels great.

I do get fluid on the joint sometimes (like after squatting today) as a previous poster mentioned (wasn’t aware it contributed to instability, though).

What seems to have helped me most with the knee, though, is lateral resistance work with bands – at least I noticed the biggest effect after incorporating that into my warm-ups and occasional non-lifting workouts.

I’ll place a band around my ankles, feet shoulder width or a little wider, sink to about 1/4 squat depth, then take 25 paces forward, back, left (not crossing) and right. Somtimes I will add a “monster walk” with the band – at least that is the term I know it by: feet wider, sunk to parallel, arms in front (like when Sumo face off), and then “lunge” along like that 25 paces forward, 25 back (you might save this one for days you’re not squatting, as it’s much harder than the first).

While doing all of these I make sure my toes stay pointing forward, make sure my knees don’t cave toward my centerline, and make sure I’m not tilting my pelvis to compensate for tightness in the hips (which I have).

I’ve also found twisting med-ball lunges (in my warmup sometimes) good for my overall stability (this maybe in terms of balance more than strengthening stabilizing muscles – not sure). Also watch knees and toes on those.

You might find these articles helpful, too:

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1109501

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1127149

Good luck.