Keto- or 'Normal' Diet for Max Fat Loss?

Nutrition
1

Hi,

I am going to return back to the gym/strength scene, but before I do that, I want to reduce my bodyfat and work on postural defiencies. Right now my specs are 20-23% bf, ~82kg, ~182cm. Note that these mean a very small amount of LBM.

So I ask you knowledged ones: 1) which will be more effective/better/faster for my personal fat loss, a ketogenic diet or a ‘normal’ glucose-based diet, and 2) how high caloric deficiency can I use so that fat loss will be fast as possible and my body won’t go into “survivalmode”(=severely reduced basal metabolic rate due to too low calories).

I won’t do any weights before my postural deficiencies get better–this means I have reserved at min 4 weeks to get them into “acceptable” condition, and if there is still a danger of heavy lifts fucking my lower back, I will use more time before I do any weights.

I will edit my precise stats when my weight scale arrives.

EDIT for clarity

2

keto will drop fat the fastest but muscle preservation will probably not be as good as using a carb based diet

when you say you want to lose fat before getting back to the gym/strength, do you mean competing in some way? if not then you shouldnt be waiting to start lifting until you get lean. let weight training help you get lean faster… MUCH faster

edit: IMO

3

[quote]MAF14 wrote:
keto will drop fat the fastest but muscle preservation will probably not be as good as using a carb based diet

when you say you want to lose fat before getting back to the gym/strength, do you mean competing in some way? if not then you shouldnt be waiting to start lifting until you get lean. let weight training help you get lean faster… MUCH faster

edit: IMO[/quote]I don’t mean competing in anyway; as of now my body has a very small amount of muscle mass; this is why losing muscle at the same time won’t matter imo (if fat drops fast) as there is not much to begin with. (pros outweight cons)

Lifting weights to make fat lose faster sounds good, however, I do not know how this way of dropping body fat and building muscle at the same time works. Could you elaborate? Is it even possible to reduce body fat and build muscle at the same time on couchpotato/novice stage?

However there is one thing that perhaps would disable me from being able to start weight lifting rightaway or make it signifigantly harder; I have some postural deficiencies, e.g. excessive lumbar lordosis, and I would like to give some time to correct my body, mainly by stretching critical places.

Say I had a caloric deficiency of 500kcal. Why would ketogenic diet be superior to glucose-based? A 500kcal defiency doesn’t create the same effect on these two diets, keto and “normal” ?

4

look up carb cycling, and lift weights. good luck

5

[quote]caveman101 wrote:
look up carb cycling, and lift weights. good luck[/quote]The Carb Cycling Codex looks just like the thing I need. Thanks for sharing.

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[quote]wimp wrote:
I don’t mean competing in anyway; as of now my body has a very small amount of muscle mass; this is why losing muscle at the same time won’t matter imo (if fat drops fast) as there is not much to begin with. (pros outweight cons)

Lifting weights to make fat lose faster sounds good, however, I do not know how this way of dropping body fat and building muscle at the same time works. Could you elaborate? Is it even possible to reduce body fat and build muscle at the same time on couchpotato/novice stage?

However there is one thing that perhaps would disable me from being able to start weight lifting rightaway or make it signifigantly harder; I have some postural deficiencies, e.g. excessive lumbar lordosis, and I would like to give some time to correct my body, mainly by stretching critical places.

Say I had a caloric deficiency of 500kcal. Why would ketogenic diet be superior to glucose-based? A 500kcal defiency doesn’t create the same effect on these two diets, keto and “normal” ?[/quote]

you CAN lose fat and add SOME muscle at the same time. dont expect huge changes though. it is much easier to do this if you are a beginner aka new to lifting or have had a serious lay off.

if your condition is excessive its probably best to let a professional correct it…

keto diets work better (for fat loss) because of lower insulin levels, depending on body fat as a main energy source, etc

if you are just sitting around i would definitely go with a keto approach… if you’re lifting either will work. you choose

7

Sorry, but you are about 6 feet tall and 160 lbs with 20% body fat?

8

[quote]JFG wrote:
Sorry, but you are about 6 feet tall and 160 lbs with 20% body fat?
[/quote]Yes, ~5.97ft with ~80kg mass at around 20% bf.

On biological/physiological level I am atm a novice/untrained. The last time I hit the gym was ~2 years ago and since then I have been living a sedentary life.

Have and will continue to visit a fysiotherapist. Main problems 1) ‘hunchback’ and 2) right shoulder in a wrong place.

So how high caloric deficiency can I use on my keto?

9

You need a program (SS, WS4SB, etc).

Work your way to around 4000-5000 calories a day and see how that goes.

News flash, you need to add muscle. Strongly suggest you get a diet with carbs. I tried the AD to gain weight and to ingest over 6K calories of food each day was hard. Not impossible, just hard.

Start tracking your food intake (fitday, livestrong, etc) and keep a work out journal. Stop stopping and get on the bandwagon of working out as a lifestyle.

Cheers.

10

[quote]JFG wrote:
You need a program (SS, WS4SB, etc).

Work your way to around 4000-5000 calories a day and see how that goes.

News flash, you need to add muscle. Strongly suggest you get a diet with carbs. I tried the AD to gain weight and to ingest over 6K calories of food each day was hard. Not impossible, just hard.

Start tracking your food intake (fitday, livestrong, etc) and keep a work out journal. Stop stopping and get on the bandwagon of working out as a lifestyle.

Cheers.[/quote]

I don’t the OP expressed an interest in getting big or gaining weight at this point in time. 4-5k calories will add weight.

I’m going to recommend the opposite so he doesn’t find himself in the perpetual “I’m not as lean as I’d like to be/I’m not as big as I’d like to be” seesaw most “eat big and lift” guys end up in. Again, if he said his primary goal was to get big/strong or be a power-lifter, I might suggest differently.

My advice to the OP would be get as lean as you are happy with before adding lots of calories. Lift heavy, and understand that you won’t make the kind of progress on that end you would eating lots. I think a ketogenic diet is a tried-and-true way to burn fat quickly if you’re okay putting strength gains on the back burner.

Based on your initial post, it sounds like you are.

If I were you (your build and stated goals), I would do Keto with heavy lifting and see how my body responds. You will lose fat on Keto. If you do great and the fat just starts falling off, I might consider going to “low carb” for awhile, and ease into carbs as I approach my leanness goals.

Lifting heavy in keto sucks, but it is essential if you want to maintain what little lean body mass it sounds like you have.

11

I like your approach of blasting the fat as your main goal.
I’d HIGHLY suggest reading up on Intermittent Fasting. I’ve seen phenomenal results in regards to fat loss, and i’ve most definitely retained muscle mass as well as packed on a pound or two of it. a 3000kcal deficit is needed to drop 1 pound of fat. So you’ll need to get there through proper nutrition and training. for someone with as high a BF%, i’d say losing 2-3lbs. a week is do-able, but it’ll suck.

Pairing IF with 3-4 sessions of fasted cardio, maybe just 15-20min of HIIT routines on some days, longer sessions of steady state on the others…HIIT has been shown to work BEST in burning fat as well as building/retaining muscles, but can be draining if done several times a week.

on top of those, i’d look into total body splits. maybe weights 3 days a week, like MWF, where you’ll train both upper and lower body in the same session. You’ve been out of the game for a while, so you’re gonna be tired, BUT you’ll still be able to eat a decent amount of calories because your expenditures should be fairly high. Once you feel as though you’re “in shape” i’d reduce the cardio, and increase the weight training, shifting from a 3-day total body to a 4-day split routine.

I’m no expert, but i’ve done okay for myself and am currently on Winter Break, lots of time on my hand if you’d like me to build you a template.

12

in my limited experience I find that starting off keto is a great way to get down to visible abs, then i have to work in post workout carbs otherwise i stall in bf loss

13

FFS, look at the OP’s stats. He is undersized and out of shape, which is completely understandable as he is a novice. So are we going to tell him to run a Smolov cycle, or Mountain Dog training? Fuck no. You start with the basics.

Why the fuck are we talking about keto, IF, carb cycling when it comes to his diet in this thread? Like everyone wants to overcomplicate things around here just to sound smart/cool. Start with the basics. Learn to eat like an adult. Why the hell would OP want to do an extremely low carb diet when he has very little muscle to begin with? OP: YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW YOU RESPOND TO CARBS WHILE TRAINING HEAVY BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT TRIED IT YET.

Seriously, everyone reread OP’s posts to realize just how new he is to all of this and shift your gears towards giving sound advice to someone just starting out. I swear some days TNation just goes full retard for no reason =(

14

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
FFS, look at the OP’s stats. He is undersized and out of shape, which is completely understandable as he is a novice. So are we going to tell him to run a Smolov cycle, or Mountain Dog training? Fuck no. You start with the basics.

Why the fuck are we talking about keto, IF, carb cycling when it comes to his diet in this thread? Like everyone wants to overcomplicate things around here just to sound smart/cool. Start with the basics. Learn to eat like an adult. Why the hell would OP want to do an extremely low carb diet when he has very little muscle to begin with? OP: YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW YOU RESPOND TO CARBS WHILE TRAINING HEAVY BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT TRIED IT YET.

Seriously, everyone reread OP’s posts to realize just how new he is to all of this and shift your gears towards giving sound advice to someone just starting out. I swear some days TNation just goes full retard for no reason =( [/quote]
LOL! Let the rage flow!

I agree though. Start eating “well” and resume weightlifting. I think youll find you wont have to go to any insane degree to lose this extra weight.

15

IF is quite simply THE MOST SIMPLE DIET PLAN EVER CREATED. dont eat for 16 hours, eat for the other 8. im hoping he can comprehend such advanced nutritional ideas.

16

Okay, let’s see what the early xmas elf brought in:

[quote]JFG wrote:
You need a program (SS, WS4SB, etc).

Work your way to around 4000-5000 calories a day and see how that goes.[/quote]I will be using SS as my base program with power clean changed into bb row. About the 4000-5000 calories a day you suggest, that will be valid sometime in the far future and not now, or am I mistaken?

[quote]JFG wrote:
I tried the AD to gain weight and to ingest over 6K calories of food each day was hard. Not impossible, just hard.[/quote]What is the AD? How much fat did you get with that “high” food amount in comparison to muscle?

[quote]JFG wrote:
Start tracking your food intake (fitday, livestrong, etc) and keep a work out journal.[/quote]I will.

[quote]Spartiates wrote:
My advice to the OP would be get as lean as you are happy with before adding lots of calories. Lift heavy, and understand that you won’t make the kind of progress on that end you would eating lots. I think a ketogenic diet is a tried-and-true way to burn fat quickly if you’re okay putting strength gains on the back burner.[/quote]Fat loss will be my 1st priority till I reach the state in which my body looks acceptable on a mirror.

[quote]Spartiates wrote:
If I were you (your build and stated goals), I would do Keto with heavy lifting and see how my body responds. You will lose fat on Keto. If you do great and the fat just starts falling off, I might consider going to “low carb” for awhile, and ease into carbs as I approach my leanness goals.[/quote]
Say my body uses the amount of BMR+X energy(theenergy used on gym)+Y(the spent on anything else, how high caloric deficiency can I use without the possibility of my body lowering BMR?

Also, if I am to be on keto and ingest carbs before a workout session, do I include these carbs on my daily energy intake calculations?

[quote]eightohfive wrote:
Something about Intermittent Fasting and HIIT[/quote]
I will look into “intermittent fasting” soon. I won’t take up HIIT as the major source of my cardio since it will make energy logging harder, unless someone can turn my head. However, I am probably going to use 10-20min sessions at will.

[quote]eightohfive wrote:
on top of those, i’d look into total body splits. maybe weights 3 days a week, like MWF, where you’ll train both upper and lower body in the same session. You’ve been out of the game for a while, so you’re gonna be tired, BUT you’ll still be able to eat a decent amount of calories because your expenditures should be fairly high. Once you feel as though you’re “in shape” i’d reduce the cardio, and increase the weight training, shifting from a 3-day total body to a 4-day split routine.[/quote]
I will be using Starting Strength or similar for 3x/week for fat loss, heavy multijoint exercises, and then start building strength and mass on SS.

[quote]jwesus wrote:
in my limited experience I find that starting off keto is a great way to get down to visible abs, then i have to work in post workout carbs otherwise i stall in bf loss[/quote]
Is this something I need to consider taking part in?

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
Why the hell would OP want to do an extremely low carb diet when he has very little muscle to begin with?[/quote]Is there a major con for me doing low carb/zero carb keto at my very low muscle mass stage? What I have read from keto is that it will eat some of the muscles for energy (e.g. brain needs it @start because it won’t get carbs from the diet), however, this amount will lower with time. I would also argument on the pros vs. cons of this–(con)a small bit of sedentary-grade muscle will be destroyed but (pro) lot’s of fat will be destroyed also. Is there some reason why this wouldn’t qualify for a victory?

17

[quote]eightohfive wrote:
IF is quite simply THE MOST SIMPLE DIET PLAN EVER CREATED. dont eat for 16 hours, eat for the other 8. im hoping he can comprehend such advanced nutritional ideas.[/quote]Better than keto?

18

for retaining LBM, whilst shedding excess fat? yes. To be able to eat carbs? yes. to be able to eat a decent amount of food, and feel full? yes.

19

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
FFS, look at the OP’s stats. He is undersized and out of shape, which is completely understandable as he is a novice. So are we going to tell him to run a Smolov cycle, or Mountain Dog training? Fuck no. You start with the basics.

Why the fuck are we talking about keto, IF, carb cycling when it comes to his diet in this thread? Like everyone wants to overcomplicate things around here just to sound smart/cool. Start with the basics. Learn to eat like an adult. Why the hell would OP want to do an extremely low carb diet when he has very little muscle to begin with? OP: YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW YOU RESPOND TO CARBS WHILE TRAINING HEAVY BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT TRIED IT YET.

Seriously, everyone reread OP’s posts to realize just how new he is to all of this and shift your gears towards giving sound advice to someone just starting out. I swear some days TNation just goes full retard for no reason =( [/quote]

ummm, relax?

there is nothing wrong with any of those recommendations. no one said “OP dont eat carbs”.

did you fully comprehend his post? he clearly said he wont be lifting heavy until his posture is fixed.

so what is wrong with a CKD for the average person… nothing. Di Pasquale even slapped a new title on the AD just so non-lifters wouldnt be scared of it aka Metabolic Diet with slight adjustments

20

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
FFS, look at the OP’s stats. He is undersized and out of shape, which is completely understandable as he is a novice. So are we going to tell him to run a Smolov cycle, or Mountain Dog training? Fuck no. You start with the basics.

Why the fuck are we talking about keto, IF, carb cycling when it comes to his diet in this thread? Like everyone wants to overcomplicate things around here just to sound smart/cool. Start with the basics. Learn to eat like an adult. Why the hell would OP want to do an extremely low carb diet when he has very little muscle to begin with? OP: YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW YOU RESPOND TO CARBS WHILE TRAINING HEAVY BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT TRIED IT YET.

Seriously, everyone reread OP’s posts to realize just how new he is to all of this and shift your gears towards giving sound advice to someone just starting out. I swear some days TNation just goes full retard for no reason =( [/quote]

ummm, relax?

there is nothing wrong with any of those recommendations. no one said “OP dont eat carbs”.

did you fully comprehend his post? he clearly said he wont be lifting heavy until his posture is fixed.

so what is wrong with a CKD for the average person… nothing. Di Pasquale even slapped a new title on the AD just so non-lifters wouldnt be scared of it aka Metabolic Diet with slight adjustments[/quote]

I made my post because he hasn’t mastered the basics yet. In his training, in his eating. Just like Starting Strength or 5/3/1 it seems that lately everyone is recommending carb cycling or IF without considering the OP’s experience level. I was thinking something along the line of:

eat 3-4 meals, with each meal be sure to get a lean protein source, clean carb source and a healthy fat source. Once this is mastered consistently, then start to count/manage macros or cals, etc. Start simple. Be consistent. I would just about bet my life if he were to start dieting with Shelby or anyone of those esteemed online coaches, that’s exactly where he’d start given his stats and experience level.