[quote]slimjim wrote:
Steroids vs “natural”
some sexist dude saying women have to use roids to be strong
even a little strongman vs powerlifter
[/quote]
I never said that women had to do roids to be strong. Anyone regardless of sex will improve their strength levels with weightlifting. What I am saying is that there are different realistic standards for men and women, and natural vs. chemically assisted.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
This thread is amazing the the variety of arguments…
We have:
Gear vs Raw
IPF vs WPO
Steroids vs “natural”
some sexist dude saying women have to use roids to be strong
even a little strongman vs powerlifter
some name calling…all in all I’m giving this fucker five stars and it all started with a video of some strong chick benching.[/quote]
you forgot arching vs. no arching in the bench press…
I gave it five stars too…
quite a bit of urine and poo flinging drama over a bunch of silly opinions…
top notch internet forum entertainment!
everyone give themselves a big round of applause…clap, clap, clap, clap…
plus that Kara chick is HOT…
[quote]Antman517 wrote:
most people (yes MOST) in the lifting community think the gear is out of hand.
I just love generalized statements like this that have absolutely zero credibility.
So, let me guess, you have done your own personal poll of thousands of lifters across the USA to come up with this conclusion.[/quote]
yes i have, actually i polled MILLIONS of people, and it has been now scientifically proven that gear has gotten out of hand.
satisfied?
[quote]Mr. Bear wrote:
heavythrower wrote:
RickJames wrote:
supermick wrote:
Kara is a powerlifter and Not a goddess, although im sure some of you think otherwise.
No-one in this thread is personally attacking her, its more critising her gear, ROM, maybe shes been on test etc. IMO there is nothing wrong with this and nothing wrong with having a different point of view but all the overprotective posts are a bit pukeworthy to be honest.
If i posted a vid of me benching i’d expect criticism - why should she be different? As long is it wasnt personal i wouldnt bat an eyelid.
Maybe it’s because I’m actually around people that lift everyday, but to me, it was no big deal that she arched, reduced ROM, used a shirt, etc. It is what it is. If you can’t figure out that what she did is impressive for a female (or even most guys her size), you probably don’t spend a lot of time around women or people that lift. I know what it takes to arch, reduce ROM, and all the other tricks powerlfiters use, and I know the difference between that and flat backing a close grip bench.
It seemed that people got their panties in a wad about how she was lifting when it was, in fact, a training video with no claims attached. This lead to some very ignorant comments from a lot of people. Luckily we have several people aspiring to be the next Captain Obvious, so facts from the video were quickly pointed out. With some of the comments made, you’d start to think people here couldn’t imagine Kara able to bench 95lbs in any other way, shape, or form.
This of course harkens back to the one thread about the bodybuilder benching 225 for, what, 47 reps? That, too, was just a performance. Those that have actually benched something for an appreciable number of reps had a good idea of what that would translate to the way they lift. I think it’s just a basic misunderstanding on a lot of people’s parts on how different ways of lifting can relate to each other.
rick, i think what is going on here is more than just the usual complaining by the masses about “roids” or etc. when they see somebody extraordinary(Kara for example) doing something they cant do.
i think that the gear issue in PL has reached a critical mass, and people just do not want to deal with it anymore. it has gotten to the point that people know how ridiculous it is, and refuse to acknowledge that these people are as strong as the numbers they put up up in gear.
the general lifting community are just sick of it. if it makes you or anyone else upset that when somebody posts a video or something of somebody hitting numbers in a jacked up shirt or 4 ply squat suit 3/4 to parallel, that LOTS of people say “big deal” or “not impressed”, GET USED TO IT. either do something to change the sport, or keep it even more underground and keep the vids and proclamations off the more diverse boards such as this.
only a few more tolerant individuals, and those who are actually in the sport take this shit seriously anymore. i understand that extreme gear is a feature of the top level of this sport, but i just think it is silly for anyone to expect acceptance of this crap by people not “sold” on it.
it is like asking the average american to take world cup soccer seriously. " hey, this is the worlds best sport damnit!!! WHY dont you like it? it is BETTER than football i tell you!!!" but the average guy on the street here could care less, they do not like soccer. see the point i am making?
the hardcore PL and PL fans are running around and banging there heads against a wall, and throwing themselves on the ground and having a tantrum because most people (yes MOST) in the lifting community think the gear is out of hand.
it is funny actually.
What does gear have to do with this training video?
Bear[/quote]
uh, becaus she takes a few heavy singles with a jacked up shirt??? just a guess.
[quote]DPH wrote:
slimjim wrote:
This thread is amazing the the variety of arguments…
We have:
Gear vs Raw
IPF vs WPO
Steroids vs “natural”
some sexist dude saying women have to use roids to be strong
even a little strongman vs powerlifter
some name calling…all in all I’m giving this fucker five stars and it all started with a video of some strong chick benching.
you forgot arching vs. no arching in the bench press…
I gave it five stars too…
quite a bit of urine and poo flinging drama over a bunch of silly opinions…
top notch internet forum entertainment!
everyone give themselves a big round of applause…clap, clap, clap, clap…
plus that Kara chick is HOT…[/quote]
you know, i am more than a little annoyed at this. why is it we can not have a reasonable discussion about the current state of the sport and its problems, without people getting all bent out of shape. criticizing extreme gear has become the iron communities version of “hate speech” you just cant mention it at all without people getting their panties all in a bunch and shouting you down for even having an opinion. silly.
I have to say that I think it has been quite a few interesting posts in this thread… 
All good? no… but still quite a few…!
I think we all agree that the initial posters vid of the bench-girl shows an amazing strenght feat, but that is… well, a very general opinion most share, so I think it is far more interesting to debate gear, amount of gear, reasons for gear, drugs, amount of drugs, reasons for drugs, technique… philosophy around the sport if you will…
You know, no one really gives a shit about strength sports anyway. Local state girl’s high school playoff games get more fans than the WSM, WPO, most olympic meets ( other than the olympics).
The average person doesn’t care about arches, raw, gear, etc. They care about NFL, NASCAR, beer, pizza, golf, lawn care and so on.
If people want to use gear, fine. You want o lift raw, fine. You want o pick up cars, fine. But the average guy thinks your weird and the sport is weird.
What it comes down to it doesn’t matter. You have weirdo traditionalists who think gear is out of hand. No one cares. Gear is cool. No one cares. Arching on a bench, no one cares.
Lifting sports have never been taken seriously. Oh yeah, old time lifting meets were on NBC. So what? High school football games here in Pa. can draw 10,000. And don’t get me started on Texas.
Lifting sports are are a niche sport and activity that will amuse the average guy at best. And they will never be big.
Again, I’ve seen more people at T ball games than powerliftign meets. And strongman meets.
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
you know, i am more than a little annoyed at this.
[/quote]
why be annoyed HT? is the gear debate that big of a deal to you?
I can assure you that I am not ‘bent out of shape’ by all this…simply amused…
live and let live is my view of powerlifting equipment…
to the people that enjoy uber-ply lifting, have at it…
to the people that take pleasure in single-ply IPF stuff, knock yourselves out…
to all the RAW enthusiasts, have fun…
but why hate each other? do your thing at let others do theirs…
you’re right, I suppose the people that enjoy and are challenged by that type of lifting (extreme gear) don’t like being mocked by those that don’t appreciate it…
it’s all silly!
[quote]tom63 wrote:
You know, no one really gives a shit about strength sports anyway. Local state girl’s high school playoff games get more fans than the WSM, WPO, most olympic meets ( other than the olympics).
The average person doesn’t care about arches, raw, gear, etc. They care about NFL, NASCAR, beer, pizza, golf, lawn care and so on.
If people want to use gear, fine. You want o lift raw, fine. You want o pick up cars, fine. But the average guy thinks your weird and the sport is weird.
What it comes down to it doesn’t matter. You have weirdo traditionalists who think gear is out of hand. No one cares. Gear is cool. No one cares. Arching on a bench, no one cares.
Lifting sports have never been taken seriously. Oh yeah, old time lifting meets were on NBC. So what? High school football games here in Pa. can draw 10,000. And don’t get me started on Texas.
Lifting sports are are a niche sport and activity that will amuse the average guy at best. And they will never be big.
Again, I’ve seen more people at T ball games than powerliftign meets. And strongman meets.[/quote]
we have had this discussion before tom, and that is a good point. but i do not see the direct relevance. you know why i felt the way i do about this, i wont gt into it here again, and it boils down to just an opinion, and mine is a valid or worthless ans the next guys.
[quote]DPH wrote:
heavythrower wrote:
you know, i am more than a little annoyed at this.
why be annoyed HT? is the gear debate that big of a deal to you?
why is it we can not have a reasonable discussion about the current state of the sport and its problems, without people getting all bent out of shape.
I can assure you that I am not ‘bent out of shape’ by all this…simply amused…
live and let live is my view of powerlifting equipment…
to the people that enjoy uber-ply lifting, have at it…
to the people that take pleasure in single-ply IPF stuff, knock yourselves out…
to all the RAW enthusiasts, have fun…
but why hate each other? do your thing at let others do theirs…
criticizing extreme gear has become the iron communities version of “hate speech” you just cant mention it at all without people getting their panties all in a bunch and shouting you down for even having an opinion. silly.
you’re right, I suppose the people that enjoy and are challenged by that type of lifting (extreme gear) don’t like being mocked by those that don’t appreciate it…
it’s all silly![/quote]
its not that big of a deal to me. i have two kids, a mortgage, a career, etc. trust me, i do not lose any sleep over this stuff, LOL. i am basically killing time here, otherwise i would be vegging out in front of the TV.
the scenario i get tired of is this:
somebody posts a vid of somebody or him/her self lifting x-amount of weight, in jacked up gear, with questionable technique, lifts that would not have been passed in the old ADFPA in which i used to compete in, and said"look here, this is AWSOME!!!" a few people chime in and give props, “that RAWKED!” etc., but when somebody like me chimes in and said “that’s nice, but i am not that impressed” THATS when all hell breaks loose.
“WHAT!!! how fucking dare you??? you are a pussy cuz you don’t stuff yourself into 4 ply and lift that much weight! RARRRGH!!! we are hardcore!!! RARRRGHG! you pencil necks just do not understand!!! RRRRRRAAAAARGGH!” BE IMPRESSED! or STFU!!!"
ookay, point taken, there is no way i could stuff myself into any amount of gear, and squat 7 bills. i tried it, and the most i got was 680, and i paid for it with a busted back and thigh for 2 months.
but yo know what? i saw an animal planet special the other day, some guys put on some sort of chain-mail armored diving suits and jumped into a chummed shark infested waters, and let the fucking sharks come up and bite them.
now THATS hardcore!!! THAT RAWKED! what? you think that is pretty stupid? not impressed? what you a pussy ? why don’t YOU try it pencil neck? Hmmm? bet you cant do it!!! Hmmm?
get my point? lol 
BTW, just for the record, i think Kara is an exceptional strength athlete, and would do well in just about any type of iron sport she chose to compete in, gear or not. my comments are not in any way an attack on her, but more so a rebuttal to those who get angry when people question the extreme gear used in the sport by some today.
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
get my point? lol ;)[/quote]
yeah, I get your point…
I can’t deny that I’ve seen alot of what you mention…on both sides of the issue…
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
tom63 wrote:
You know, no one really gives a shit about strength sports anyway. Local state girl’s high school playoff games get more fans than the WSM, WPO, most olympic meets ( other than the olympics).
The average person doesn’t care about arches, raw, gear, etc. They care about NFL, NASCAR, beer, pizza, golf, lawn care and so on.
If people want to use gear, fine. You want o lift raw, fine. You want o pick up cars, fine. But the average guy thinks your weird and the sport is weird.
What it comes down to it doesn’t matter. You have weirdo traditionalists who think gear is out of hand. No one cares. Gear is cool. No one cares. Arching on a bench, no one cares.
Lifting sports have never been taken seriously. Oh yeah, old time lifting meets were on NBC. So what? High school football games here in Pa. can draw 10,000. And don’t get me started on Texas.
Lifting sports are are a niche sport and activity that will amuse the average guy at best. And they will never be big.
Again, I’ve seen more people at T ball games than powerliftign meets. And strongman meets.
we have had this discussion before tom, and that is a good point. but i do not see the direct relevance. you know why i felt the way i do about this, i wont gt into it here again, and it boils down to just an opinion, and mine is a valid or worthless ans the next guys. [/quote]
I agree Heavy. We all get into these little arguments about gear and such, but no one but us cares. That’s the relevance. So if some guys are super gear whores, I shrug and let them do their thing, or even try to learn something about it to help my lfitng.
The IPF guys think their guys don’t do drugs and single ply is no big deal, even though some shirts in single play won’t let 800+ touch the chest.
Raw is neat, but many people such as me would have more health issues if the gear wasn’t out there. I use elbow sleeves and knee sleeves for joint warming up. Briefs for my hips, wrist wraps for my wrists at 225 + on the bench.
Outlawing gear in all feds would mean I would have a hard time getting some briefs. Of course, that would never happen.
The major gear companies are one of the few sponsors for meets. They go, some meets go. I understnad the she ebnches only 225 for 7, but does a 451 in a contest. I’m stronger than her, but can’t do 451 yet with a shirt. My 20 rep set withh 225 is at 20 give or take on a good or bad day.
But I don’t care. Lifting meets whether you Olympic, strongman, and powerlifting are very sport specific. Strength is very difficult to define specifically, so these arguments happen.
Think shooting. Markmanship is important to combat, but shooting matches are far removed from combat.
If you can do double your bodyweight with a belt for reps in the squat and deadlift, you’re real world strong. you do 300 in the ebnch, you’re real world strong. I doubt 1/500 adult males could do either of these, or all of them.
The rest is just an argument about a rule. Baseball had more than 3 strikes a batter at one time. Basketball had no 3 point line, and so on.
The gear debate is a rule argument, that’s all. If you personally see someone lift, you know if they’re strong, gear or not. You don’t see them… well, we’ve all heard about the 2nd cousin of your buddy who benches 700 or so and doesn’t even train.
Now, if changing a rule drew people to the sport, I would support that. but I don’t beleive changing in any direction will draw more people than a spinal tap reunion show. It will be moms, dads, training buddies, a few girlfriends, and so on.
That’s just another way of saying, let people do what they want and don’t get bothered by whatever others do, unless it’s squat rack curling.
Bleh, maybe people can get back into reality some day
Powerlifting is recognised as a sport by the IOC. IPF is recognised as the official PL federation world wide. Powerlifting will NEVER be contested at the Olmpics because there is too many sports and the only way PL will get in is if we kill OL and that aint gonna happen, because OL has 100years of history in the games.
This is why IPF Powerlifting is part of the World Games, which is a international multi sport event, held every four years (2005 was in Germany), under the patronage of the IOC for sports that are olmpically recognised, but are unable to fit within the olympic games banner. Bodybuilding is also a sport that takes part under the WG banner.
Arch. Origonally known as the Collins arch, named after one of the early british lifters (1960s). The powerlifting equivilant of the Fosbury flop (which at the time was harrassed by the older athletes as not pure).
Origonal bench press rules (circa 1930)did not allow bridging, but they didnt have a rack either, so the lifters had to be handed the bar from the floor.
There was, however, no consistency or governing body to maintain rules during this time period, which lead to whatever yuo want to do counted… including some extreme width grips (collar width).
THe 1960’s also had the same wording, but with the added context of ‘With head, trunk (including buttocks) extended on the bench, feet flat on the platform.’ ← but they also allowed an alternative setup, which included feet on the bench like a bbr would do…
This set of rules was also incldued in the 1964 AAU rulebook, when PL was “officially a sport”
Although there was a lot of fidgiting and complaints about the rules because of a variety of factors.
With the advent of the International powerlifting federation in 1973, there was the adoption of the AAU rulebook, and it also followed the same terminology of trunk on the bench.
In between this time and around the 1980s there was a subtle alteration in the wording to the point that they have now of “The lifter must lie on his back with shoulders and buttocks in contact with the bench surface.”
if you attend any reasonable sized bench meet, you will see a lot of people benching. Strangely a lot of the athletes do not arch to any geat extent, even the top lifters. If you go into the female competitions, where you tend to find more extreme arches because of the natural flexibility advantage, there still is only a small proportion of the lifting done with a large arch.
So if the federations allow the arch, why do most athlete not utilize it? Mainly because its difficult, painful and if your doing 3lift meets, will help screw your deadlift. There is also the problem that the amount of time you can spend working on bringing the arch up that 1" more is better off spent doing some strength work to bring up bench strength.
3)ROM - There never has been, and never will be a rule that sets specific ROM requirements from a bench press. Just as shorter lifters have smaller ROMs in squat and deadlift, thats just the breaks you get from your body. Just as a freak in basketball is never pinged for being taller than anyone else. If all it took was being short, there would be a lot more dwarfs out in the PL public eye. Unfortuantely there is around two that stand out. Markus Schick and Andrzej Stanaszek.
Now markus is a fantastic lifter, but I do not know his overall lifting profile. Andrzej benched over triple bodyweight raw as a junior. And with just a suit, no wraps, he squatted 6x bodyweight. However, his deadlift sucked ass because he was too short to have good leverages on the bar. BEcause of this, his total was only good enough for second. Highest ever Wilkes score, and he was only good enough for second.
PL is more than having good ROM in 1/2 lifts. Powerlifting is a total package.
Bitching about fat people getting an easy go in powerlifting. Get over it. If its that easy, all of the big benchers would be getting big assed obese so they can hold the WR. The strange thing is they are not. Even gene has trimmed up from his 370+days.
Theres no weight limit, theres no prizes for looking pretty , the competition is, and always has been, moving the most weight.
Sure the newer line of PL equipment has taken it to another level, but thats the same in a lot of sports. Dont like it, dont play it. Its not ruining the respect for PL as there was none anyway. TV publicity did not go away because of gear, as that came years after PL dissapeared off TV. PL dissapeared off TV because nobody gave a shit, and the TV companies could not make any $$ from it.
There has the be a value for a TV network to play anything on TV, and unfortunately more people care about professional Poker than ever had or will care about PL.
And for all the RAW lovers who go on about Kaz being the greatest raw lifter ever - blah blah blah - Kaz utilized all of the gear taht was available at teh time, including the great marathon 'super’suit, which still is a great lifting suit. The greatest raw lifter to date was the great Don Reinhoudt with 2420.
IPF has a drug testing program, and as a part of its Consitution it has an objective of “Promote, support and encourage drug free powerlifting.” ← one of the few mentions of drug free powerlifting by the IPF. This is a goal, unfortunately like most sports, vigilance is required to prevent those trying to circumvent the testing system to gain an advantage over their competition.
Just as formula one has to manually check everything on the cars following a race to ensure somebody isnt pulling a fast one, powerlifting has to do the same for its rules. under most powerlifting federations you have to submit your gear for “gear check” prior to lifting, to make suer that your equipment complies with the requirements. If you go to an IPF competition, sidestep the gear check by presenting a single ply shirt, then go ahead and wear a dual ply shirt, you are cheating, just as those who sidestep the drug tests.
When those who choose to use (its their body, their choice) have the option of competting in the federations who’s rules allow doping, but choose to lift in one that doesnt, it shows the true nature of the person.
It should just be no stupid-ass gear, regardless. Pure brute strength is the best way in my opinion. Because a suit adding 300 pounds to a squat is ridiculous. 2nd thing is that even though Kara’s movement is only 6 inches, thats fine…thats why they have the TECHNIQUE…technique does equal strength…no matter what…when training in jiu-jitsu…the technique is your strength, your not going to do the movement by muscling it out, when its much easier by just using techniques to sumbit your oppenent. SAME THING WITH POWERLIFTING…its all about technique…so if she’s made her technique like that, then tahts her strength, and its still legit. I just think suits and all that crap should be gone and forgotten about.
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
rick, i think what is going on here is more than just the usual complaining by the masses about “roids” or etc. when they see somebody extraordinary(Kara for example) doing something they cant do.
i think that the gear issue in PL has reached a critical mass, and people just do not want to deal with it anymore. it has gotten to the point that people know how ridiculous it is, and refuse to acknowledge that these people are as strong as the numbers they put up up in gear.
the general lifting community are just sick of it. if it makes you or anyone else upset that when somebody posts a video or something of somebody hitting numbers in a jacked up shirt or 4 ply squat suit 3/4 to parallel, that LOTS of people say “big deal” or “not impressed”, GET USED TO IT. either do something to change the sport, or keep it even more underground and keep the vids and proclamations off the more diverse boards such as this.
only a few more tolerant individuals, and those who are actually in the sport take this shit seriously anymore. i understand that extreme gear is a feature of the top level of this sport, but i just think it is silly for anyone to expect acceptance of this crap by people not “sold” on it.
it is like asking the average american to take world cup soccer seriously. " hey, this is the worlds best sport damnit!!! WHY dont you like it? it is BETTER than football i tell you!!!" but the average guy on the street here could care less, they do not like soccer. see the point i am making?
the hardcore PL and PL fans are running around and banging there heads against a wall, and throwing themselves on the ground and having a tantrum because most people (yes MOST) in the lifting community think the gear is out of hand.
it is funny actually. [/quote]
Mike, my bad, I wasn’t talking about the geared portion of the video. In fact, I did not even watch it (I cut the video off after the 225x7 raw).
I don’t mind what people have to say about gear. Gear is what it is, and some people understand it more than others - that will be obvious from their comments. What she does in a shirt is fairly irrelevant to me - it’s just a number that is a function of her strength, technique, and the fit/material of the shirt. Change the shirt, and the result changes, so again, to me, it’s just some number that has little relevance to me.
Well- I enjoyed this thread. I think every controversy in PL was covered- drugs, gear, judging, viability as a mainstream sport, etc… There was a bit of fiery vitriole- isn’t there some post up there about greco-fisting somebody’s girlfriend? It was kind of like one of those moments in baseball- where a fight starts a, pile-on ensues, and pretty soon, it’s not at all clear just what’s happening. Let’s do this again next week.
[quote]WideGuy wrote:
Guys I’m not a pl’er so dont’ rip me but that arch she has looks ridiculous. I’ve seen alot of pro pl’ers bench and they have some arch but that’s look silly. I think I could bench 100 lbs more if I set up like that, but I’d probably injure myself so I suppose that’s the whole trick. Am I just sounding retarded here or does anyone agree?[/quote]
This is about the stupidest thing I have ever read. You think you could add 100 lbs to your bench just from arching? You’d be lucky to add a tenth of that to your raw bench with a good arch.
I’ve done 225x11 with a full arch and pinky on the line grip and 225x6 totaly flat back, but with my index fingers on inner smooth part of the bar. I’ve been practicing my arch for 6 years and have a pretty damn big one too.
From what I know about Kara’s training she’s also done a bunch of reps with 225 with a totally flat back and very close grip; no hand off, etc.
So, the only thing “silly” here is that a 148 lbs girl could smoke you in any lift, no matter how she performs it. Stop making excuses about it and just learn how to get stronger (assuming a bruised ego is an injury you can train with).
Why don’t you post a video of your pristine looking bench presses and then show us all how much more you can do with an arch.
Please get a clue and stop talking out of your ass.
nfl style is just repping out with 225, like in all the combines and stuff
but u all have to realize, thats not close to her best raw bench, she has doing 245x8 when she was a tad heavier
and thats also not her best shirt bench, thats a shirt with a 9" chest panel which is huge on her
[quote]KBCThird wrote:
WideGuy wrote:
I think I could bench 100 lbs more if I set up like that, but I’d probably injure myself so I suppose that’s the whole trick. Am I just sounding retarded here or does anyone agree?
Wide, no, you siad in the first line that youre not a PLer, so i think this is perfectly reasonable. The rules vary by fed, but most say somehting along the lines of “the your upperback and you butt must remain in contact with the bench.” Hers do. You answered your own question tho, most guys dont have the FLEXIBILITY to get an arch like that.
Wideguy had a legit question, but other than him, the responses on this thread are so aggravating. You’re not impressed by some of this? What friggin parts? How many chicks do you know who could bench 225 once, let alone 7 times, raw.
And she moves the bar 6 inches? This is the same crap a guy at work pulled when I was watching a vid of nick wolfe bench 900 “Oh, well look his belly gets in the way, he doesnt move it that far.” I responded, how about we put 900 lbs on a bar and I hand it off to you, just hold it there, thats all. That shut him up. She moves it 6 inches, so friggin what, thats how far it is to her chest.
I’d be willing to bet that between a quarter and a half of the guys who post here couldnt hit 405 in a shirt, and yet heres this 140 lb chick, who still looks quite feminine (there’s an understatement,) who does it, and we have nothing but negative things to say about her. Disgusting.
[/quote]
kara is a very nice looking and strong girl 225x7!!!i know a lot of guys who can’t do things like that. i am a lifter and i can do 405+ raw, and that does impress me, she has pretty good form for her. why? because it works.