Just Saw Fahrenheit 9/11

Thunderbolt
Don’t call Moore my champion! I’ve never even seen one of his movies or read any of his books! True from the little I have read I agree with his opinions for the most part on Bush and company, but he is no champion of mine.

If George Bush got up and took a shit on the Rose Garden in front of the cameras. You Bush soldiers would find a way to justify it! Or say it was trick photography. It blows me away how you blind you are to how biased you are for Bush!

If Bush had been the one to have John Kerry’s service record in Nam, you would be yelling he should have the Congressional Medal of Honor! Likewise if Kerry would have been the one to serve in the Air National Guard you would be crucifying him that he was a coward!

You guy’s are totally blind to your unrealistic behaviors!

Elk,

“It blows me away how you blind you are to how biased you are for Bush!”

Nonsense. Biased? Yes. I prefer Bush to Kerry. Of course I am biased in that sense. Everyone who casts a vote is biased.

Blind? Absolutely not. I have many complaints about Bush. I’ll throw a few out for you: weakness in not using the veto to restrain legislative excesses (he hasn’t vetoed one piece of work since he has been in office), he didn’t come down hard enough in public on corporate criminals and crime, he told the US the Medicare expansion was going to cost much less than it actually was projected, reckless deficits and increased non-defense government spending (pork barrel spending has been shameful), he worries too much about electability and listens to Karl Rove too much (Bush is at his best when he trusts himself and leaves the politics behind), post-war Iraq plan was not strong…

These are just a few grievances I have. Bush is not perfect - I certainly don’t think so.

But I support Bush - I believe he is a good President, and there is no credible alternative in my mind. Democrats aren’t pro-anything, they’re just anti-Bush. That’s no way to govern the mightiest and best nation in history.

To paraphrase Ed Koch, former mayor of New York:

"If you agree with me on 7 out of 10 issues, vote for me. If you agree with me on 10 out of 10 issues, consult a psychiatrist.

More on Moore’s disingenuous arguments:

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=GbQRj3SpcGhWaL7EAHnbHW%3D%3D

DAILY EXPRESS
Conflation Rate
by Richard Just
Only at TNR Online | Post date 06.28.04

A mainstream liberal consensus on Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit 9/11 has emerged quickly. It goes something like this: Moore’s a nutty conspiracy theorist, and parts of the movie–in which he suggests, among other things, that we invaded Afghanistan not because of 9/11 but because we wanted to build a natural gas pipeline–showcase Moore at his least responsible. But he’s also a talented polemicist and filmmaker; and as a result, the second half of the movie–in which he uses the story of Lila Lipscomb, a grieving military mother, to examine why it is only the poor and working class who sacrifice in times of war–is both profound and smart. In The New York Times, A.O. Scott called the interviews with Lipscomb the “most moving sections” of the film. If the folks with whom I saw the movie provide any indication, audiences across the country will leave the theater so moved by Lipscomb’s story that they will forgive Fahrenheit 9/11 its often-incoherent points and poorly supported accusations. That, I suspect, is exactly what Moore wanted: to wrap assertions that can only be described as odd–such as his insistence that the military is failing to adequately patrol miles of deserted Oregonian coast–in the heart-breaking story of a mother’s loss and the legitimate observation that America’s system of military service asks too much of the poor and too little of elites.

There’s a central–and dishonest–trick to what Moore is doing here: He’s conflating two questions that have very little to do with each other. The question of whether a war is just (Moore’s thesis is that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars were not) has no logical connection to the question of whether it is fought by a justly selected military. Vietnam was not an unjust war because elites received draft deferments; it was an unjust war in which the burdens of military service happened to be spread unfairly. Every war the United States has fought since Vietnam has been fought by an unjustly distributed military. But not every war has been unjust. The distribution of sacrifice in a democracy is a moral problem all its own.

Moore’s argumentative strategy, however, rests on tricking audiences into believing otherwise. Having laid out his mostly unconvincing cases against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and having presented compelling scenes of Lipscomb grieving, military recruiters preying on the ignorance of teenagers, and congressmen fleeing questions about their children’s military service, he pulls an intellectual sleight of hand that goes by so quickly–and indeed, that sounds so logical–that many viewers won’t realize they’ve been tricked. In a voiceover, he says (and I’m paraphrasing pretty roughly here): I’ve always been amazed that in America the poor and working class do most of the fighting. That is their gift to us. And all they ask in return is that we don’t send them to war unless we absolutely have to. The logical connection between the two thoughts here is patently absurd. (Is Moore implying that it’s okay for the poor and working class to do most of the fighting as long as they are only sent to fight in necessary wars? Would it be okay to fight unnecessary wars if the military burden were properly balanced?) But it’s also central to Moore’s argument. He needs to be able to place his movie’s best point–the brazen immorality of Lipscomb having to grieve her son while elites make no similar sacrifice–in the service of his larger argument, which is that Bush’s wars have been unjust. So he eloquently conflates them, pumps up his soundtrack, and hopes viewers don’t bother to think about what he’s actually done.

How do we know Moore only wants to use his point about who sacrifices in war as a distraction from his real agenda of indulging conspiracy theories about Bush’s foreign policy? Because a serious examination of that issue would have required something very different from what Moore delivers. He could have taken his camera and knocked on the doors of Ivy League presidents who ban ROTC from their campuses, helping to perpetuate the notion that military service is not for our country’s young elites. He could have seriously considered the arguments for a draft.

The problem of the military’s socioeconomic imbalance, when considered thoughtfully, isn’t really a partisan issue. But that’s exactly how Moore treats it, because embarrassing (presumably liberal) academics or considering proposals with non-ideological appeal just isn’t how Moore does business. His approach to the issue makes clear that he is using it rather than examining it. Surely Moore will concede that whether America’s wars are just or unjust–indeed whether we fight wars at all–we do need people to serve in our military, and we do need to find them somewhere. The logical extension of elite schools shutting their doors to military recruiters is that those same recruiters end up scouring the malls of Flint, Michigan. If Moore really cares about the socioeconomic imbalance of the U.S. military, you wouldn’t know it from this movie.

Which is too bad, because the question of who serves in the American military is an important one, and we ought to be having a national debate about it. But far from provoking such a debate, Fahrenheit 9/11 will stymie it. That’s because Moore essentially argues that the way to redress our military’s socioeconomic imbalance–the way to stop the Lila Lipscombs of America from bearing an unfair percentage of the burden of our country’s defense–is not to fight unjust wars. This makes no sense, but it is also a deeply attractive message to Moore’s target audience of true believers, because it neatly waves away the guilt of elites who do not want their children to serve in the military. It tells them that the difficult moral question of how we determine who serves in the military–a question that should make any parent or young person who really thinks about it deeply uncomfortable–need not be grappled with, as long as we only wage just wars. Just as young viewers of Fahrenheit 9/11 (like me) may be beginning to wonder why it is that the life of Lipscomb’s son was worth less than their own, Moore invites us to short-circuit this troubling, important line of reasoning with a glib piece of illogic: No unnecessary wars; no need to spread the sacrifice of military service. It’s as if he forgets that people also die, and mothers also grieve, in necessary wars.

There seems to be a growing sentiment among liberals that Moore is a bad guy, but dammit, he’s our bad guy. I disagree. Liberalism is as badly served by liberal intellectual dishonesty as it is by conservative intellectual dishonesty. Besides, Lila Lipscomb and the young men being funneled directly from Flint malls to Iraq deserve better. That is, they deserve to be more than distractions from the intellectual mess that precedes them in this movie. Moore ends Fahrenheit 9/11 by predicting that American voters will not be fooled into voting again for George W. Bush. I hope he’s right. But I also hope they won’t be fooled by the bad logic at the center of his film.

Richard Just <showBio.mhtml?pid=430> is editor of TNR Online.

A little more Moore. The above review was by a liberal, so here, to balance, is one by a conservative. If I were to balance “intelligent” [the reviews already posted] with “idiotic,” I would have to find a review that actually thought Moore’s arguments were persuasive.


http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins200406290935.asp

June 29, 2004, 9:35 a.m.
The Left?s Masterwork
Michael Moore?s 9/11.

The preview really got my attention. The New York Times called the documentary “entertaining, moving and historically significant.” Details dubbed it “an instant and incendiary classic,” and Entertainment Weekly called it “epic storytelling…one of the most revelatory…portraits ever made.” Thoughtful words for an important moment in film. But Metallica: Some Kind of Monster won’t be released until July 9, and, anyway, I was in the theater to see Fahrenheit 9/11.

Satire in wartime is an ancient art ? Aristophanes made a career of it. One can appreciate the humor in a well-made caricature regardless of one’s view of the issues it makes light of. But listening to the banter amongst the Left-wing crowd in the theater, I concluded that this was not simply lampoonery. Moore accurately reflects the beliefs that most Democratic voters hold as true: President Bush was not elected legally; the United States is run by a wealthy white oligarchy (of which Democrats are somehow not a part, but sometimes facilitate); the military is comprised of an underclass that is sent to die in wars to keep the ruling oligarchy in power and make its members even wealthier; and invading Iraq was the idee fixe of the Bush administration from day one, for which the war on terrorism simply provided a convenient pretext.

As a film, Fahrenheit is uneven. A few parts are visually entertaining (e.g., the Bonanza parody) and some are very moving. But other segments wander to no particular point (such as a night patrol in Iraq, dimly filmed and inconclusive) or are simply confusing (are there really insufficient numbers of state troopers in Oregon, and if so, isn’t that their problem?). Mostly I was interested in how Moore employed the various elements of his shtick, which he has been developing at least since he emerged on the scene with Roger & Me in 1989. All the tricks were in evidence:

Exploit the ignorant: Talk to people who are inexperienced with media, and encourage them to say things that they probably should not. It is especially effective when giving a straight interview to people whose views are preposterous. The Daily Show does this regularly, and it is very funny, but hardly profound. Moore shows, among others, a woman in Saginaw, Michigan, who explains why her town could be a target for terrorism, and a clip of a hapless entrepreneur hawking an “escape chute” for emergency evacuation from tall buildings. These people were used to illustrate the irrational fears the oligarchs had conjured in order to prepare the hoipolloi for the case to invade Iraq. Congressman Jim McDermott called the fear campaign a “skillful and ugly” manipulation of the American public, underscoring the sense of paranoia that pervades the film.

Stage ambushes: Track down famous people and pose difficult questions while filming them, hopefully catching them in an embarrassing moment. Moore presents congressmen with the idea that their children should be sent to fight in Iraq, his reasoning being that if the lives of the progeny of the oligarchy were placed in danger we would only fight wars that were really necessary. Unfortunately for Moore, he is too well known and instantly recognizable for the ambush to work very well, and most of the shots show his intended victims avoiding him. Perhaps he should work through proxies.

Capitalize on the nonsequitur: The most noted example of this technique, and one being used to promote the film, features President Bush on a golf outing. He states to reporters, “I call upon all nations to do everything they can to stop these terrorist killers. Thank you. Now watch this drive.” This scene got big laughs. Moore makes it appear as though the president convened the reporters in order to make a major policy statement, and then get back to his golf game. However, this was a routine press availability in which the president gave a standard answer to a stock question. Had he shown the entire Q&A it would hardly have been as interesting, but it would definitely have been more truthful. Moore also delights in running out-takes, pre-interview preparation shots, and other images that editors do not usually find newsworthy. People sometimes do strange or potentially embarrassing things before the cameras come on. For example it is not particularly edifying to see Deputy Secretary of Defense Wolfowitz coping with a bad hair experience, but apparently Moore found it significant.

Juxtapose: Juxtaposition is a very important aspect of Moore’s technique, but he is not very subtle. For example, he shows a clip from al Jazeera of an Iraqi woman wailing about her house being destroyed by American bombs, then cuts to a soldier talking about how they are there to make life better for the Iraqi people. The low point in the film is a series of street scenes of happy Iraqi children interspersed with shots of the attack being readied. The implicit ? perhaps explicit ? message is that life under Saddam was just fine. (Moore doesn’t much discuss Saddam, or why Bush was out to get him, except to imply it was because Saddam had tried to kill Bush 41.) We shortly see images of Iraqi children killed or horribly wounded, an echo of the “baby-killer” rhetoric of the Vietnam era.

Mess with the soundtrack: This is another form of juxtaposition, and the least clever aspect of Moore’s act, the kind of technique anybody could employ. Just take a serious situation and put frivolous music behind it, or illustrate a popular song with images of your victim that place him in a bad light. Moore sometimes showed a little imagination, such as showing tape of President Bush landing on the USS Abraham Lincoln while playing the theme from The Greatest American Hero" (“Believe It or Not”). However, frequently his selections were of the “cheesy sounding circus music in the background” variety, what one might call French humor, which is probably what caught the attention of the folks at Cannes.

Milk the pathos: Moore appeals to emotion throughout the film, for example showing wounded servicemen, most of whom bore their situations stoically. A 9/11 victim’s family member discussed at length how her life had been devastated, though she seemed to be one of the professional victims attending the 9/11 Commission hearings. Moore could have engaged in some clever juxtapositioning here by flashing up the average payment from the victim funds ($2.1 million), especially compared to the minuscule benefits paid to families of troops killed in the war. The most poignant story was Lila Lipscomb’s, whose son Sgt. Michael F. Pedersen was killed April 2, 2003, in a Blackhawk helicopter crash. Moore presents Lipscomb as a proud service mother, a self-described conservative Democrat who ran the flag up every day and despised the antiwar crowd. After her son is killed, Moore documents her descent into despair. She is currently getting involved in the peace movement she used to oppose.

There was one scene where I felt Moore had reached high art. He portrayed the 9/11 attacks using sounds and a blank screen. He passed up using the most compelling visuals of recent decades, appealing instead to the viewer’s imagination and memory, with an auditory prompt. It was disorienting and frightening, and in my opinion the best moment of the movie qua movie. Nevertheless, it was soon over, and then it was back to the shtick.

Moore is the perfect person to engage in this kind of manufactured public embarrassment, largely because you cannot imagine him being embarrassed about anything. Not because he doesn’t have reason to be, but because he is completely unselfconscious. Faulty reasoning, slim evidence, outright foolish statements, nothing slows him down. The film has a number of factual errors, and the 9/11 Commission, which he portrays sympathetically, has since undercut some of the pillars of his major arguments. Moore passed up a great opportunity for irony with respect to one Commission finding: The movie dwells at length on the issue of the Saudi flights out of the U.S. after the attacks, and Moore shows a clip of Senator Byron Dorgan asking who was responsible. Later when showing Richard Clarke making his argument that the president had ordered him to find Iraq responsible for 9/11, Moore could have scrolled text across the bottom of the screen saying, “Hey Senator! This is the guy!” But that might have disrupted the conspiratorial story line with unnecessary salient facts.

The Democratic leadership embraced Moore at the premier at the Uptown Theater in Washington, and the heavily liberal audience applauded the film vigorously. It was a great moment of candor. Moore has the guts to say the things they think but will not utter. If the film encourages them to speak up, all the better. I cannot see Middle America finding much intellectual appeal in the film’s underlying feeling of ill will and dread. It is at base very hateful. Conservatives should not protest this film; that only gives it more notoriety and makes its multimillionaire “everyman” director even wealthier. I would sooner acknowledge Moore as the intellectual leader of the Left, and this film his (and their) emblematic masterwork. This is the best they have to offer.

RSU - "Are you sure, Jeff? I didn’t notice that, and I don’t think Moore would do that. Look, Bush has done enough stupid shit on camera not to have to create some illusion.

Will you deny what he said at the fundraiser? “the haves and the have mores…some call you the elite, I call you my base”

Did he not demand that someone in his camp declare “nice shot” upon shooting some skeet?

Did he not use phrases like “Smoke 'em out” over and over and over?

These are a couple that come to mind. His arrogance is undeniable."


Then Real facts are presented like -

Regarding the “haves and have nots” crack, it was joke deliverd at the Alfred E. SMith Foundation Dinner, where it is tradition for the speakers to trade barbs and poke fun at one another.

Some excerpts:

‘"Your great-grandfather was my favorite kind of governor: the kind who ran for president and lost,’" said Al Gore. ’

‘Bush also mentioned Smith’s ill-fated campaign, admitting, “It gives me hope that in America it’s still not possible for a fellow named Al to be the commander-in-chief.”’
etc…

so RSU why do you think moore wouldn’t do that? You know him? You trust him that much? It appears that you may be blindly trusting him just because he says what you like.

In order for me to consider anything you say credible and free thinking which you always claim to be… then please admit that you might have been duped into believing something that was purposely taken out of context to paint a worse picture than what was really there. If you are truly open minded you will admit that moore was dishonest with this film and led people to believe things as fact that were merely distortions of the truth. I can think of many times where I have said something that if taken out of context separated and shown to somebody else would seem like I am very bad etc… but in reality I might have been playing around with my friends, or acting like an ass on purpose or something. I think we can all think of these situations.

Now considering how open minded and free thinking you are, if you were led to believe that this movie was factual, and if you were led to believe that bush said those things at a fundraiser and was being serious, just imagine how the average ho hum american cattle will respond to this. This is why things like this film are dangerous, Too many people will walk out of that theater and be convinced that everything in the movie was real and truthful. The movie is borderline Slander and yes I saw it too so I can talk about it.

Please respond…

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

“Exploit the ignorant: Talk to people who are inexperienced with media, and encourage them to say things that they probably should not.
…a clip of a hapless entrepreneur hawking an “escape chute” for emergency evacuation from tall buildings.”

I would point out that this fellow hawking the escape chute was a clip from the Today Show. I think Matt Lauer ought to get the blame for making this man look so incomprehensibly deficient on camera.

Thunderbolt-
I beg to differ with you! I am a democrat and I am pro-truth! I am also pro-America, I am pro-strong defense for our country, I am pro-conservation, I am pro-military, I am pro-the right to keep and bear arms, I am pro-freedom to use your brain to make your decisions!

I will tell you what I am against, I’m against politicians who play on your fears through falsehoods and manipulations, I’m against people who have never been to war who are so quick to bang the war drum as loud as they can! I’m against assholes who tell us your either with us or against us! I’m against assholes like Bill O, or Sean Hannity, pretending they have the market cornered on morality or decency, I’m against the far religious right thinking they have the need to save the world by telling us how to live! I’m against a president telling the troops we love you and honor your sacrifice out of one side his mouth while veterans benefits are being slashed out the other side! I’m against people screaming democracy and freedom for another country while they try to silence a film maker in our country!

One last thing the question or accusation has been raised: Did George Bush lie to the American people? I for one do not believe he lied to us intentionally. I think he truly believes he’s god’s warrior sent to save mankind from evil. I think he is blissfully unaware in the limelight. I think Cheney, Wolfewitz, Rumsfeld are all to happy to have him on center stage as the figure head while they are the ones getting their policy’s passed!

Now let’s hear the rabid responses from the right on this forum!

Elk - the left had their shot at talk radio…no one listened.

When it comes to Hannity, O’Riley, and Rush you are more than welcome to change the station.

As far as religion interfering in your life - trying to tell you what to do - that’s bullshit.

Name one suit filed by a religous group to gain more influence in your life. It’s always the ACLU suing to have religous freedoms stripped away from God-fearing people.

“I will tell you what I am against, I’m against politicians who play on your fears through falsehoods and manipulations…”

Me too. Like Kerry’s Misery Index and Moore’s ‘Fahrenheit 9/11’. Perhaps Moore isn’t politician himself, but he wants to be a kingmaker. And what does Moore do if not play on your fears with falsehoods and manipulations? He has elevated to art - literally.

“I’m against assholes who tell us your either with us or against us!”

I’m not, so long as a case can be made that one way is better than another. Liberals are suckers for spineless relativism, not me so much. On issues of war between civilizations, I’m happy to report I think you are with us or against us. Good thing we had folks like Churchill, Roosevelt, Reagan, and Thatcher who were proud to recognize a dichotomous threat and declare sides in stark terms - and didn’t buy into this flimsy, indecisive crap that these milktoast Lefties are preaching.

Just as FDR was quoted as saying “I don’t want to bring Japan to justice, I want to bring Japan to its knees” - can you imagine a Democrat with enough sack to observe a threat and approach it as manfully and dutifully as this?

Me neither.

“I’m against assholes like Bill O, or Sean Hannity, pretending they have the market cornered on morality or decency”

If this really bothers you, you should also despise the op-ed page of the New York Times and - our favorite guy - Michael Moore. They too, believe they’ve got the market cornered. That’s just business as usual for talking heads that are paid for their opinions.

Being opinionated nowadays hurts alot of feelings. If I think you’re wrong, I should be able to tell you so respectfully, and you should be able to take it - that goes for both sides of the political spectrum.

“I’m against the far religious right thinking they have the need to save the world by telling us how to live!”

Where do you experience this? They have no real voice in the media, they have no place in academia, and really no serious place in government. Where are you being told how to live? By anyone credible? Or are you just paranoid?

“I’m against people screaming democracy and freedom for another country while they try to silence a film maker in our country”

Me too, and I think it’s plain stupid to try and get Moore blocked from showing his movie. If he can find a distributor, he should every avenue afforded any other storyteller.

In fact, I’ll go farther. I wish Moore’s film made it beyond the specialized theaters it is currently running in. My wish is that the film could have spots in mainstream American theaters.

Which, by the way, would be John Kerry’s worst nightmare.

There you go again rainjack showing us that broad range of thinking!

Elk-

RIGHT ON BROTHA!

All this debate has got me pumped up to see this movie.

It’s virtually impossible to find non-biased media anymore, so I don’t expect anything but a polemic… Moore has at least been forthright about his motives and intentions with this. With a national election coming up, it seems foolish to skip seeing this movie on account of someone else’s opinion or a past comment by Moore himself. That’s like saying Fox News shouldn’t be seen simply because someone else tells me they are biased.

We have had four years under Bush, and the question before us is this: do you want 4 more years of him or do you want a change?

I don’t expect to walk away from Moore’s movie with my mind made up one way or the other… but at least I will have an opinion based on experience with it as opposed to second-hand information. If I don’t like it, at least I will have my own reasons, as opposed to those adopted from others.

“Those who refuse to see, are blind. Those who refuse to hear, are deaf. Those who speak anyway, are dumb.”

elk:

Who is trying to silence Moore? Saying his film is blatantly untrue and ham-handed propaganda that no intelligent person should take seriously is arguing against him in the democratic tradition – it is not trying to silence him.

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
There you go again rainjack showing us that broad range of thinking![/quote]

Are we being a tad bit sarcastic, Elk?

What is narrow minded about what I said? Is any of it untrue?

Is liberal talk radio booming somewhere I don’t know about?

You can’t change your dial?

The evil Religous Right is forcing it’s doctrine on you?

It’s pretty typical of you lib’s - disagree with you at the risk of being narrow minded.

Tolerance, huh?

This is why things like this film are dangerous, Too many people will walk out of that theater and be convinced that everything in the movie was real and truthful. The movie is borderline Slander and yes I saw it too so I can talk about it.

How come the movie is horrible but pure political drivel in terms of twisted statistics and bullshit negative ads is okay? What about radio shock jocks who aren’t telling the truth but are merely “entertainment” with a message? You think Kerry isn’t slandered daily via means other than this movie?

I’m not trying to get into a left versus right or a Bush versus Kerry thing here… just wondering why the movie is so wrong but other methods of presenting suspect information are not. The public buys all of the misinformation. Why does a movie qualify as dangerous but not the rest?

Vroom,

“Why does a movie qualify as dangerous but not the rest?”

For one, the movie is billed as a documentary. If it is going to win awards as a documentary, it should be held to the standards of one.

There are all kinds of media - talking heads on radio shows, political plays (like Tim Robbins’ “Embedded”), etc. - but a documentary has a different kind of pedestal. Just as there are different rules as to what is one the front page of a newspaper and what is allowable on the op-ed page, the standards matter.

I frankly don’t think Moore or his films are particularly dangerous. That’s why I support mass distribution of his film. But he shouldn’t have the arts and media trumpeting his work as something it is not - a documentary. It lends an air of legitimacy that the film doesn’t deserve.

Just as an op-ed piece could not appear on the front page as ‘news’, Moore doesn’t meet the criteria.

Moore is a pop culture hack - he is in the same category as Britney Spears. He sees an audience, he panders to that audience, he cranks out low quality material (book and movies) in a hurry to take advantage of a mood, he manufactures controversy to get his sales up, and none of his work will be lasting.

Perhaps Moore’s next move is a Sex Book like Madonna’s?

I’m not, so long as a case can be made that one way is better than another. Liberals are suckers for spineless relativism, not me so much. On issues of war between civilizations, I’m happy to report I think you are with us or against us. Good thing we had folks like Churchill, Roosevelt, Reagan, and Thatcher who were proud to recognize a dichotomous threat and declare sides in stark terms - and didn’t buy into this flimsy, indecisive crap that these milktoast Lefties are preaching.

Thunderbolt-
With the above comment it begs me to ask the question, even though I will catch flak for it! Since you think liberals and democrats are spineless have you done your part as a military man? Are like cheney, wofewitz, or Bush, or you an arm chair soldier? A Monday morning General so to speak. If you have then disregard the above.

BB-
You highly educated corporate lawyer you! You know there are other ways then the obvious to try and silence something! I don’t think you will believe it because that would go against your ideology, but there were behind the lines moves. You know like Michael Eisner (sp?) initially not distributing it! I don’t believe he knew that at the time that would backfire in a huge way. You talk about liberals being word tricksters! A lot of the points you argue you are far to educated to really buy into.

Alas
You right-wingers did not disappoint! Continue to goose-step!

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
BB-
You highly educated corporate lawyer you! You know there are other ways then the obvious to try and silence something! I don’t think you will believe it because that would go against your ideology, but there were behind the lines moves. You know like Michael Eisner (sp?) initially not distributing it! I don’t believe he knew that at the time that would backfire in a huge way. You talk about liberals being word tricksters! A lot of the points you argue you are far to educated to really buy into.

Alas
You right-wingers did not disappoint! Continue to goose-step![/quote]

Elk:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that’s ridiculous. As far as I know – please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong – Eisner is a Democrat. But it really doesn’t matter – Disney refused to distribute because it is a big, risk-averse corporation that didn’t want to be associated with anything politically risky. Risk aversion on the part of a large corporation can hardly be seen as trying to keep him down.

Now, if you want to expand the definition out to the absurd, you can argue that all the tricky corporate lawyers like me who refuse to pay money to see Mr. Moore’s objet d’merde are trying to silence him by depriving him of his needed funds. Or that those who write bad reviews are guilty of trying to silence him because bad reviews might lead to smaller audiences, which would make it more difficult to get his message out.

Bottom line is this: In the marketplace of ideas, you have debate. People’s opinions are not attempts to silence Moore – maybe to expose his lack of intellectual rigor, but not to silence him. You really must stop seeing vast right-wing conspiracies everywhere you look.

BTW, as a side note, I am disappointed by your implicit Nazi analogy at the end of your post.

Elk - you are the definition of hypocrisy.

  1. You accuse me of being narrow minded when bereft of logical discussion. btw - still waiting for you to answer

  2. In the next post, once again, you equate serving in the military with the right to free speech. What if thunder hasn’t served? Does that disqualify him from an opinion? I’ll say it again, maybe this time you will actually read it - If you voted for Clinton, your “you gotta serve to opine” mantra is a sham.

  3. That same post you equate The right with some sort of mind-numbed army (goose stepping).

If you spent a minute of your time actually practicing what you preached, maybe I would find you a tad more credible. However, that is not the case. Maybe you should just dedicate your time here to running behind lumpy to give him the moral support he so desperately needs.

Elk,

“You right-wingers did not disappoint! Continue to goose-step!”

Don’t forget, Hitler was a socialist.

Just food for thought.