Just Saw Fahrenheit 9/11

Hey,
Fellas the goosestep comment was inappropriate! I will admit that. BB you are far educated to think I was referring to censorship by the examples you provided. Things are done behind the scenes on the right and the left. Whenever big money is involved censorship can happen. You talk about me making the goosestep comment raise a big stink about it! What about Thunder insinuating democrats were spineless! Throw barbs in my direction you are probably going to get some back.

Rainjack
I can’t help it for some ungodly reason I think your a pretty cool dude! Even though your brainwashed (it’s a joke rainjack don’t go postal on the keyboard now)! Rain would you be a happy person if everyone agreed with you? O’h and rain will you get over Clinton already he’s history in my book! Do you have some obssession with him? My question about the military is in reference to someone calling democrats of which I’m one, spineless! If someone is going to imply I’m spineless! I want to know their qualifications to hand out that kind of judgement!

Thunder
You did not answer the military question! I’m curious to hear your answer!

Elk,

You told me to disregard the question if it wasn’t necessary. So I did.

But it doesn’t matter. To have an opinion about war and peace does not require military experience. That’s a stupid litmus test. Some of our finest military historians and professors (at the various war colleges, etc.) of the present day have never served.

Moreover, my comments were that current liberals adhere to a spineless relativism - that is, the first instinct is to appease, which I personally find spineless. I’m sure there are exceptions to the rule, but I find that observation to be generally true. I’ll be happy to entertain any comments to change my mind.

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Hey,
Fellas the goosestep comment was inappropriate! I will admit that. BB you are far educated to think I was referring to censorship by the examples you provided. Things are done behind the scenes on the right and the left. Whenever big money is involved censorship can happen. You talk about me making the goosestep comment raise a big stink about it! What about Thunder insinuating democrats were spineless! Throw barbs in my direction you are probably going to get some back.

[/quote]

Elk:

Hard to argue with you when you’re basically saying that there must be all sorts of stuff going on behind the scenes that we can’t see but must believe – sort of like trying to argue religion (which, I’ve come to think, is a very good analog for political beliefs for some people – nothing personal intended by that general observation). Suffice it to say, I remain unconvinced, if only because the possible negative publicity that would explode if such a censorship campaign were to come to light, combined with the tiny probability of success given Moore’s pre-existing celebrity rabble-rouser status, makes it too unlikely for a rational right-wing conspirator to risk undertaking. I mean, what if the whole vast conspiracy were compromised?

As to name calling, I generally try to avoid it, and I don’t condone it or think it makes for good argument (ad hominem fallacy) – although I admit I sometimes walk a fine line with Lumpy when I’m in a bad mood. That said, I reserve the right to object to it when it seems it might be aimed very generally in my vicinity. [BTW, as a side note, I hope you realize when I said I was disappointed, it was because I expect better given your demeanor – complimentary stuff from a shifty corporate-lawyer type =-)]

BB
I knew what you meant. I’ll admit to this I do like you and thunderbolt, hell even rainjack quite a bit! Politics aside I wish you all the best!

Have a good evening men

great article ripping apart some of the claims made in the movie…and from newsweek, the liberal rag no less.

More debunking Michael Moore – by noted right-wing-conspiracy members MSNBC and Newsweek:

More Distortions From Michael Moore
Some of the main points in ?Fahrenheit 9/11? really aren?t very fair at allWEB EXCLUSIVE
By Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball
Newsweek
Updated: 6:26 p.m. ET June 30, 2004

June 30 - In his new movie, ?Fahrenheit 9/11,? film-maker Michael Moore makes the eye-popping claim that Saudi Arabian interests ?have given? $1.4 billion to firms connected to the family and friends of President George W. Bush. This, Moore suggests, helps explain one of the principal themes of the film: that the Bush White House has shown remarkable solicitude to the Saudi royals, even to the point of compromising the war on terror. When you and your associates get money like that, Moore says at one point in the movie, ?who you gonna like? Who?s your Daddy??

But a cursory examination of the claim reveals some flaws in Moore?s arithmetic?not to mention his logic. Moore derives the $1.4 billion figure from journalist Craig Unger?s book, ?House of Bush, House of Saud.? Nearly 90 percent of that amount, $1.18 billion, comes from just one source: contracts in the early to mid-1990?s that the Saudi Arabian government awarded to a U.S. defense contractor, BDM, for training the country?s military and National Guard. What?s the significance of BDM? The firm at the time was owned by the Carlyle Group, the powerhouse private-equity firm whose Asian-affiliate advisory board has included the president?s father, George H.W. Bush.

Leave aside the tenuous six-degrees-of-separation nature of this ?connection.? The main problem with this figure, according to Carlyle spokesman Chris Ullman, is that former president Bush didn?t join the Carlyle advisory board until April, 1998?five months after Carlyle had already sold BDM to another defense firm. True enough, the former president was paid for one speech to Carlyle and then made an overseas trip on the firm?s behalf the previous fall, right around the time BDM was sold. But Ullman insists any link between the former president?s relations with Carlyle and the Saudi contracts to BDM that were awarded years earlier is entirely bogus. ?The figure is inaccurate and misleading,? said Ullman. ?The movie clearly implies that the Saudis gave $1.4 billion to the Bushes and their friends. But most of it went to a Carlyle Group company before Bush even joined the firm. Bush had nothing to do with BDM.?

In light of the extraordinary box office success of ?Fahrenheit 9/11,? and its potential political impact, a rigorous analysis of the film?s assertions seems more than warranted. Indeed, Moore himself has invited the scrutiny. He has set up a Web site and ?war-room? to defend the claims in the movie?and attack his critics. (The war-room?s overseers are two veteran spin-doctors from the Clinton White House: Chris Lehane and Mark Fabiani.) Moore also this week contended that the media was pounding away at him ?pretty hard? because ?they?re embarrassed. They?ve been outed as people who did not do their job.? Among the media critiques prominently criticized was an article in Newsweek.

In response to inquiries from NEWSWEEK about the Carlyle issue, Lehane shot back this week with a volley of points: There were multiple Bush ?connections? to the Carlyle Group throughout the period of the Saudi contracts to BDM, Lehane noted in an e-mail, including the fact that the firm?s principals included James Baker (Secretary of State during the first Bush administration) and Richard Darman (the first Bush?s OMB chief). Moreover, George W. Bush himself had his own Carlyle Group link: between 1990 and 1994, he served on the board of another Carlyle-owned firm, Caterair, a now defunct airline catering firm.

But unmentioned in ?Fahrenheit/911,? or in the Lehane responses, is a considerable body of evidence that cuts the other way. The idea that the Carlyle Group is a wholly owned subsidiary of some loosely defined ?Bush Inc.? concern seems hard to defend. Like many similar entities, Carlyle boasts a roster of bipartisan Washington power figures. Its founding and still managing partner is David Rubenstein, a former top domestic policy advisor to Jimmy Carter. Among the firm?s senior advisors is Thomas ?Mack? McLarty, Bill Clinton?s former White House chief of staff, and Arthur Levitt, Clinton?s former chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. One of its other managing partners is William Kennard, Clinton?s chairman of the Federal Communications Commission. Spokesman Ullman was the Clinton-era spokesman for the SEC.

As for the president?s own Carlyle link, his service on the Caterair board ended when he quit to run for Texas governor?a few months before the first of the Saudi contracts to the unrelated BDM firm was awarded. Moreover, says Ullman, Bush ?didn?t invest in the [Caterair] deal and he didn?t profit from it.? (The firm was a big money loser and was even cited by the campaign of Ann Richards, Bush?s 1994 gubernatorial opponent, as evidence of what a lousy businessman he was.)

Most importantly, the movie fails to show any evidence that Bush White House actually has intervened in any way to promote the interests of the Carlyle Group. In fact, the one major Bush administration decision that most directly affected the company?s interest was the cancellation of a $11 billion program for the Crusader rocket artillery system that had been developed for the U.S. Army (during the Clinton administration)?a move that had been foreshadowed by Bush?s own statements during the 2000 campaign saying he wanted a lighter and more mobile military. The Crusader was manufactured by United Defense, which had been wholly owned by Carlyle until it spun the company off in a public offering in October, 2001 (and profited to the tune of $237 million). Carlyle still owned 47 percent of the shares in the defense company at the time that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld?in the face of stiff congressional resistance?canceled the Crusader program the following year. These developments, like much else relevant to Carlyle, goes unmentioned in Moore?s movie.

None of this is to suggest that there aren?t legitimate questions that deserve to be asked about the influence that secretive firms like Carlyle have in Washington?not to mention the Saudis themselves (an issue that has been taken up repeatedly in our weekly Terror Watch columns.) Nor are we trying to say that ?Fahrenheit 9/11? isn?t a powerful and effective movie that raises a host of legitimate issues about President Bush?s response to the September 11 attacks, the climate of fear engendered by the war on terror and, most importantly, about the wisdom and horrific human toll of the war in Iraq.

But for all the reasonable points he makes, on more than a few occasions in the movie Moore twists and bends the available facts and makes glaring omissions in ways that end up clouding the serious political debate he wants to provoke.

Consider Moore?s handling of another conspiratorial claim: the idea that oil-company interest in building a pipeline through Afghanistan influenced early Bush administration policy regarding the Taliban. Moore raises the issue by stringing together two unrelated events. The first is that a delegation of Taliban leaders flew to Houston, Texas, in 1997 (?while George W. Bush was governor of Texas,? the movie helpfully points out) to meet with executives of Unocal, an oil company that was indeed interested in building a pipeline to carry natural gas from the Caspian Sea through Afghanistan.

The second is that another Taliban emissary visited Washington in March, 2001 and got an audience at the State Department, leaving Moore to speculate that the Bush administration had gone soft on the protectors of Osama bin Laden because it was interested in promoting a pipeline deal. “Why on earth would the Bush administration allow a Taliban leader to visit the United States knowing that the Taliban were harboring the man who bombed the USS Cole and our African embassies?” Moore asks at one point.

This, as conspiracy theories go, is more than a stretch. Unocal?s interest in building the Afghan pipeline is well documented. Indeed, according to ?Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to Sept. 10., 2001,? the critically acclaimed book by Washington Post managing editor Steve Coll, Unocal executives met repeatedly with Clinton administration officials throughout the late 1990s in an effort to promote the project?in part by getting the U.S. government to take a more conciliatory approach to the Taliban. ?It was an easy time for an American oil executive to find an audience in the Clinton White House,? Coll writes on page 307 of his book. ?At the White House, [Unocal lobbyist Marty Miller] met regularly with Sheila Heslin, the director of energy issues at the National Security Council, whose suite next to the West Wing coursed with visitors from American oil firms. Miller found Heslin?very supportive of Unocal?s agenda in Afghanistan.?

Coll never suggests that the Clintonites? interest in the Unocal project was because of the corrupting influence of big oil. Clinton National Security Council advisor ?Berger, Heslin and their White House colleagues saw themselves engaged in a hardheaded synthesis of American commercial interests and national security goals,? he writes. ?They wanted to use the profit-making motives of American oil companies to thwart one of the country?s most determined enemies, Iran, and to contain the longer-term ambitions of a restless Russia.?

Whatever the motive, the Unocal pipeline project was entirely a Clinton-era proposal: By 1998, as the Taliban hardened its positions, the U.S. oil company pulled out of the deal. By the time George W. Bush took office, it was a dead issue?and no longer the subject of any lobbying in Washington. (Vice President Dick Cheney?s energy task force report in May, 2001, makes no reference to it.) There is no evidence that the Taliban envoy who visited Washington in March, 2001?and met with State Department and National Security Council officials?ever brought up the pipeline. Nor is there any evidence anybody in the Bush administration raised it with him. The envoy brought a letter to Bush offering negotiations to resolve the issue of what should be done with bin Laden. (A few weeks earlier, Taliban leader Mullah Omar had floated the idea of convening a tribunal of Islamic religious scholars to review the evidence against the Al Qaeda leader.) The Taliban offer was promptly shot down. ?We have not seen from the Taliban a proposal that would meet the requirements of the U.N. resolution to hand over Osama bin Laden to a country where he can be brought to justice,? State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said at the time.

The use of innuendo is rife through other critical passages of ?Fahrenheit 9/11.? The movie makes much of the president?s relationship with James R. Bath, a former member of his Texas Air National Guard who, like Bush, was suspended from flying at one point for failure to take a physical. The movie suggests that the White House blacked out a reference to Bath?s missed physical from his National Guard records not because of legal concerns over the Privacy Act but because it was trying to conceal the Bath connection?a presumed embarrassment because the Houston businessman had once been the U.S. money manager for the bin Laden family. After being hired by the bin Ladens to manager their money in Texas, Bath ?in turn,? the movie says, ?invested in George W. Bush.?

The investment in question is real: In the late 1970?s, Bath put up $50,000 into Bush?s Arbusto Energy, (one of a string of failed oil ventures by the president), giving Bath a 5 percent interest in the company. The implication seems to be that, years later, because of this link, Bush was somehow not as zealous about his determination to bin Laden.

Leaving aside the fact that the bin Laden family, which runs one of Saudi Arabia?s biggest construction firms, has never been linked to terrorism, the movie?which relied heavily on Unger?s book?fails to note the author?s conclusion about what to make of the supposed Bin Laden-Bath-Bush nexus: that it may not mean anything. The ?Bush-Bin Laden ?relationships? were indirect?two degrees of separation, perhaps?and at times have been overstated,? Unger writes in his book. While critics have charged that bin Laden money found its way into Arbusto through Bath, Unger notes that ?no hard evidence has ever been found to back up that charge? and Bath himself has adamantly denied it. ?One hundred percent of those funds (in Arbusto) were mine,? says Bath in a footnote on page 101 of Unger?s book. ?It was a purely personal investment.?

The innuendo is greatest, of course, in Moore?s dealings with the matter of the departing Saudis flown out of the United States in the days after the September 11 terror attacks. Much has already been written about these flights, especially the film?s implication that figures with possible knowledge of the terrorist attacks were allowed to leave the country without adequate FBI screening?a notion that has been essentially rejected by the 9/11 commission. The 9/11 commission found that the FBI screened the Saudi passengers, ran their names through federal databases, interviewed 30 of them and asked many of them ?detailed questions." ?Nobody of interest to the FBI with regard to the 9/11 investigation was allowed to leave the country,? the commission stated. New information about a flight from Tampa, Florida late on Sept. 13 seems mostly a red herring: The flight didn?t take any Saudis out of the United States. It was a domestic flight to Lexington, Kentucky that took place after the Tampa airport had already reopened.(You can read Unger?s letter to Newsweek on this point, as well as our reply, by clicking here.)

It is true that there are still some in the FBI who had questions about the flights-and wish more care had been taken to examine the passengers. But the film?s basic point?that the flights represented perhaps the supreme example of the Saudi government?s influence in the Bush White House-is almost impossible to defend. Why? Because while the film claims?correctly?that the ?White House? approved the flights, it fails to note who exactly in the White House did so. It wasn?t the president, or the vice president or anybody else supposedly corrupted by Saudi oil money. It was Richard Clarke, the counter-terrorism czar who was a holdover from the Clinton administration and who has since turned into a fierce Bush critic. Clarke has publicly testified that he gave the greenlight?conditioned on FBI clearance.

?I thought the flights were correct,? Clarke told ABC News last week. ?The Saudis had reasonable fear that they might be the subject of vigilante attacks in the United States after 9/11. And there is no evidence even to this date that any of the people who left on those flights were people of interest to the FBI.? Like much else relevant to the issues Moore raises, Clarke?s reasons for approving the flights?and his thoughts on them today?won?t be found in ?Fahrenheit 9/11,? nor in any of the ample material now being churned out by the film-maker?s ?war room? to defend his provocative, if flawed, movie.

? 2004 Newsweek, Inc.

[quote]Right Side Up wrote:

Are you sure, Jeff? I didn’t notice that, and I don’t think Moore would do that. Look, Bush has done enough stupid shit on camera not to have to create some illusion.
[/quote]

This is the funniest thing I’ve read on this thread! I don’t think Moore would do that. Bwahhahahahhaaha. It’s just so beneath him; bwaahahahahaha. Just confess you’re love and adoration for everything Moore now. Come one, get it over with…

I doubt any Moore lovers will actually read this, but it’s a rather throrough debunking. Also, as a side note, if you want a version with lots of links to source material, follow the link.


http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

Fifty-six Deceits in Fahrenheit 911

By Dave Kopel

[This is a preliminary version of an article that will be published on National Review Online.]

There are many articles which have pointed out the distortions, falsehoods, and lies in the film Fahrenheit 911. This report compiles the Fahrenheit 911 deceits which have been identified by a wide variety of reviewers. In addition, I identify some inaccuracies which have not been addressed by other writers.

The report follows the approximate order in which the movie covers particular topics: the Bush family, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and Iraq. This report focuses solely on factual issues, and not on aesthetic criticism of the film.

To understand the deceptions, it helps to understand Moore?s ideological position. So let us start with Moore?s belief that the September 11 attacks on the United States were insignificant.

Edward Koch, the former Democratic Mayor of New York City, writes:

A year after 9/11, I was part of a panel discussion on BBC-TV?s ?Question Time? show which aired live in the United Kingdom. A portion of my commentary at that time follows:

?One of the panelists was Michael Moore?During the warm-up before the studio audience, Moore said something along the lines of ?I don?t know why we are making so much of an act of terror. It is three times more likely that you will be struck by lightening than die from an act of terror.??I mention this exchange because it was not televised, occurring as it did before the show went live. It shows where he was coming from long before he produced ?Fahrenheit 9/11.?

Edward Koch, ?Moore?s propaganda film cheapens debate, polarizes nation,? World Tribune, June 28, 2004.

As we go through the long list of lies and tricks in Fahrenheit 911, keep in mind that Michael Moore has assembled a ?war room? of political operatives and lawyers in order to respond to criticism of Fahrenheit 911 and to file defamation suits. (Jack Shafer, ?Libel Suit 9/11. Michael Moore?s hysterical, empty threats,? Slate.com, June 12, 2004.)

Of course there are any genuine errors in this report, the errors will be promptly corrected. Conversely, because Moore has a paid expert staff which is monitoring criticism of the movie, it is reasonable to assume that?unless I have specifically retracted some item in this column?every factual statement in this column has been tacitly conceded to be legitimate by Moore and his staff.

In this report, I number Moore?s deceits. Some of them are outright lies; some are omissions which create a false impression. Others involve different forms of deception. A few are false statements Moore has made when defending the film.

2000 Election Night

Deceits 1-2

Fahrenheit 911 begins on election night 2000. We are first shown the Al Gore rocking on stage with famous musicians and a high-spirited crowd. The conspicuous sign on stage reads ?Florida Victory.? Moore creates the impression that Gore was celebrating his victory in Florida.

Actually, the rally took place in the early hours of election day, before polls had even opened. Gore did campaign in Florida on election day, but went home to Tennessee to await the results. The ?Florida Victory? sign reflected Gore?s hopes, not any actual election results. (?Gore Campaigns Into Election Day,? Associated Press, Nov. 7, 2000.)

The film shows CBS and CNN calling Florida for Al Gore. According to the narrator, ?Then something called the Fox News Channel called the election in favor of the other guy?.All of a sudden the other networks said, ?Hey, if Fox said it, it must be true.??

We then see NBC anchor Tom Brokaw stating, ?All of us networks made a mistake and projected Florida in the Al Gore column. It was our mistake.?

Moore thus creates the false impression that the networks withdrew their claim about Gore winning Florida when they heard that Fox said that Bush won Florida.

In fact, the networks which called Florida for Gore did so early in the evening?before polls had even closed in the Florida panhandle, which is part of the Central Time Zone. The premature call probably cost Bush thousands of votes from the conservative panhandle, as discouraged last-minute voters heard that their state had already been decided, and many voters who were waiting in line left the polling place.

NBC called Florida for Gore at 7:49:40 p.m., Eastern Time. This was 10 minutes before polls closed in the Florida panhandle. Thirty seconds later, CBS called Florida for Gore. And at 7:52 p.m., Fox called Florida for Gore. Moore never lets the audience know that Fox was among the networks which made the error of calling Florida for Gore prematurely. Then at 8:02 p.m., ABC called Florida for Gore. Only ABC had waited until the Florida polls were closed.

The premature calls probably cost Bush thousands of votes from the conservative panhandle, as discouraged last-minute voters heard that their state had already been decided, and many voters who were waiting in line left the polling place. In Florida, as elsewhere, voters who have arrived at the polling place before closing time often end up voting after closing time, because of long lines.

At 10:00 p.m., which network took the lead in retracting the premature Florida result? The first retracting network was CBS, not Fox.

Over four hours later, at 2:16 a.m., Fox projected Bush as the Florida winner, as did all the other networks by 2:20 a.m.

CBS had been taken the lead in making the erroneous call for Gore, and had taken the lead in retracting that call. At 3:59 a.m., CBS also took the lead in retracting the Florida call for Bush. All the other networks, including Fox, followed the CBS lead within eight minutes. That the networks arrived at similar conclusions within a short period of time is not surprising, since they were all using the same data from the Voter News Service. (Linda Mason, Kathleen Francovic & Kathleen Hall Jamieson, ?CBS News Coverage of Election Night 2000: Investigation, Analysis, Recommendations? (CBS News, Jan. 2001), pp. 12-25.)

Moore?s editing technique of the election night segment is typical of his style: all the video clips are real clips, and nothing he says is, formally speaking, false. But notice how he says, ?Then something called the Fox News Channel called the election in favor of the other guy?? The impression created is that the Fox call of Florida for Bush came soon after the CBS/CNN calls of Florida for Gore, and that Fox caused the other networks to change (?All of a sudden the other networks said, ?Hey, if Fox said it, it must be true.??)

This is the essence of the Moore technique: cleverly blending half-truths to deceive the viewer.

2000 Election Recount

Deceit 3

A little while later:

?Michael Moore shows a clip of CNN analyst Jeffrey Toobin saying that if ballots had been recounted in Florida after the 2000 presidential vote, ?under every scenario Gore won the election.?

What Moore doesn?t show is that a six-month study in 2001 by news organizations including The New York Times, the Washington Post and CNN found just the opposite. Even if the Supreme Court had not stopped a statewide recount, or if a more limited recount of four heavily Democratic counties had taken place, Bush still would have won Florida and the election.

Thomas Frank, ?Film offers limited view,? Newsday, June 27, 2004.

Bush Presidency before September 11

Deceits 4-5

The movie lauds an anti-Bush riot that took place in Washington, D.C., on the day of Bush?s inauguration. Moore continues: ?No President had ever witnessed such a thing on his inauguration day. And for the next eight months it didn?t get any better for George W. Bush. He couldn?t get his judges appointed; he had trouble getting his legislation passed; and he lost Republican control of the Senate. His approval ratings in the polls began to sink.?

Part of this is true. Once Vermont Senator Jim Jeffords left the Republican party, Democrats controlled the Senate, and stalled the confirmation (not ?appointment?) of some of the judges whom Bush had nominated for the federal courts.

Congress did enact the top item on Bush?s agenda: a large tax cut. During the summer, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives easily passed many of Bush?s other agenda items, including the bill whose numbering reflected the President?s top priority: H.R. 1, the Bush ?No Child Left Behind? education bill. The fate of the Bush bills in the Democratic-controlled Senate, as of August 2001, was uncertain. The Senate later did pass No Child Left Behind, but some other Bush proposals did not pass.

Did Bush?s approval ratings begin to sink? Not really. Moore shows a screen displaying Bush with 53% job approval on May 3, and 45% on September 5. Strangely, the screen shot includes no source for this alleged poll.

University of Minnesota History Professor Steven Ruggles has compiled a chart showing Bush?s approval ratings in 13 major polls throughout his Presidency. According the charts, never during 2001 did Bush?s approval rating fall as low as 45%.

Nor did Bush?s approval ratings really ?sink? after inauguration day. Bush?s popularity ratings rose significantly in April (when his tax cut was the main issue in Congress), and then returned to more normal levels in June. From Bush?s inaugural until September 10, almost all of his approval ratings were in the 50-60% range, with only a few results from an occasional poll either higher or lower.

Bush Vacations

Deceit 6

Fahrenheit 911 states, ?In his first eight months in office before September 11th, George W. Bush was on vacation, according to the Washington Post, forty-two percent of the time.?

Shortly before 9/11, the Post calculated that Bush had spent 42 percent of his presidency at vacation spots or en route, including all or part of 54 days at his ranch. That calculation, however, includes weekends, which Moore failed to mention.

Tom McNamee, ?Just the facts on ?Fahrenheit 9/11? Chicago Sun-Times, June 28, 2004. See also: Mike Allen, ?White House On the Range. Bush Retreats to Ranch for ?Working Vacation?,? Washington Post, August 7, 2001 (Many of those days are weekends, and the Camp David stays have included working visits with foreign leaders.)

[T]he shot of him ?relaxing at Camp David? shows him side by side with Tony Blair. I say ?shows,? even though this photograph is on-screen so briefly that if you sneeze or blink, you won?t recognize the other figure. A meeting with the prime minister of the United Kingdom, or at least with this prime minister, is not a goof-off.

The president is also captured in a well-worn TV news clip, on a golf course, making a boilerplate response to a question on terrorism and then asking the reporters to watch his drive. Well, that?s what you get if you catch the president on a golf course.

Christopher Hitchens, ?Unfairenheit 9/11: The lies of Michael Moore,? Slate.com, June 21, 2004.

September 11

Deceit 7

Fahrenheit presents a powerful segment on the September 11 attacks. There is no narration, and the music is dramatic yet tasteful. Instead of the oft-played images of planes hitting their targets, the visuals are reaction shots from pedestrians, as they gasp with horrified astonishment.

Moore effectively evokes the horror that every decent human being felt on September 11.

But remember, Moore does not necessarily feel the same way. As New York?s former Mayor Edward Koch reported, Moore later said, ?I don?t know why we are making so much of an act of terror. It is three times more likely that you will be struck by lightening than die from an act of terror.?

Bush on September 11

Deceit 8

Fahrenheit mocks President Bush for continuing to read a story to a classroom of elementary school children after he was told about the September 11 attacks.

What Moore did not tell you:

Gwendolyn Tose?-Rigell, the principal of Emma E. Booker Elementary School, praised Bush?s action: ?I don?t think anyone could have handled it better.? ?What would it have served if he had jumped out of his chair and ran out of the room???

She said the video doesn?t convey all that was going on in the classroom, but Bush?s presence had a calming effect and ?helped us get through a very difficult day.?

?Sarasota principal defends Bush from ?Fahrenheit 9/11? portrayal,? Associated Press, June 24, 2004.

Pre-911 Briefing

Deceits 9-11

Castigating the allegedly lazy President, Moore says, ?Or perhaps he just should have read the security briefing that was given to him on August 6, 2001 that said that Osama bin Laden was planning to attack America by hijacking airplanes.?

Moore supplies no evidence for his assertion that President Bush did not read the August 6, 2001 Presidential Daily Brief. Moore?s assertion appears to be a complete fabrication.

Moore smirks that perhaps President Bush did not read the Briefing because its title was so vague. Moore then cuts to Condaleeza Rice announcing the title of the Briefing: ?Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S.?

However, no-one (except Moore) has ever claimed that Bush did not read the Briefing, or that he did not read it because the title was vague. Rather, Condaleeza Rice had told the press conference that the information in the Briefing was ?very vague.? National Security Advisor Holds Press Briefing, The White House, May 16, 2002.

The content of the Briefing supports Rice?s characterization, and refutes Moore?s assertion that the Briefing ?said that Osama bin Laden was planning to attack America by hijacking airplanes.? The actual Briefing was highly equivocal:

We have not been able to corroborate some of the more sensational threat reporting, such as that from a [deleted text] service in 1998 saying that Bin Laden wanted to hijack a U.S. aircraft to gain the release of ?Blind Shaykh? ?Umar? Abd aI-Rahman and other U.S.-held extremists.

Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.

Saudi Departures from United States

Deceits 12-15

Moore is guilty of a classic game of saying one thing and implying another when he describes how members of the Saudi elite were flown out of the United States shortly after 9/11.

If you listen only to what Moore says during this segment of the movie?and take careful notes in the dark?you?ll find he?s got his facts right. He and others in the film state that 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country after Sept. 13. 

The date?Sept. 13?is crucial because that is when a national ban on air traffic, for security purposes, was eased 

But nonetheless, many viewers will leave the movie theater with the impression that the Saudis, thanks to special treatment from the White House, were permitted to fly away when all other planes were still grounded. This false impression is created by Moore?s failure, when mentioning Sept. 13, to emphasize that the ban on flights had been eased by then. The false impression is further pushed when Moore shows the singer Ricky Martin walking around an airport and says, ?Not even Ricky Martin would fly. But really, who wanted to fly? No one. Except the bin Ladens.?

But the movie fails to mention that the FBI interviewed about 30 of the Saudis before they left. And the independent 9/11 commission has reported that ?each of the flights we have studied was investigated by the FBI and dealt with in a professional manner prior to its departure.?

McNamee, Chicago Sun-Times. (Note: The Sun-Times article was correct in its characterization of the Ricky Martin segment, but not precisely accurate in the exact words used in the film. I have substituted the exact quote.)

Tapper: [Y]our film showcases former counter-terrorism czar Richard Clarke, using him as a critic of the Bush administration. Yet in another part of the film, one that appears in your previews, you criticize members of the Bush administration for permitting members of the bin Laden family to fly out of the country almost immediately after 9/11. What the film does not mention is that Richard Clarke says that he OK?d those flights. Is it fair to not mention that?

Moore: Actually I do, I put up The New York Times article and it?s blown up 40 foot on the screen, you can see Richard Clarke?s name right there saying that he approved the flights based on the information the FBI gave him. It?s right there, right up on the screen. I don?t agree with Clarke on this point. Just because I think he?s good on a lot of things doesn?t mean I agree with him on everything.

Jake Tapper interview with Michael Moore, ABC News, June 25, 2004.

Again, Moore is misleading. His film includes a brief shot of a Sept. 4, 2003, New York Times article headlined ?White House Approved Departures of Saudis after Sept. 11, Ex-Aide Says.? The camera pans over the article far too quickly for any ordinary viewer to spot and read the words in which Clarke states that he approved the flights.

Some Saudis left the U.S. by charter flight on September 14, a day when commercial flights had resumed, but when ordinary charter planes were still grounded. When did the bin Ladens actually leave? Not until the next week, as the the 9/11 Commission staff report explains:

Fearing reprisals against Saudi nationals, the Saudi government asked for help in getting some of its citizens out of the country?.we have found that the request came to the attention of Richard Clarke and that each of the flights we have studied was investigated by the FBI and dealt with in a professional manner prior to its departure.

        No commercial planes, including chartered flights, were permitted to fly into, out of, or within the United States until September 13, 2001. After the airspace reopened, six chartered flights with 142 people, mostly Saudi Arabian nationals, departed from the United States between September 14 and 24. One flight, the so-called Bin Ladin flight, departed the United States on September 20 with 26 passengers, most of them relatives of Usama Bin Ladin. We have found no credible evidence that any chartered flights of Saudi Arabian nationals departed the United States before the reopening of national airspace.

        The Saudi flights were screened by law enforcement officials, primarily the FBI, to ensure that people on these flights did not pose a threat to national security, and that nobody of interest to the FBI with regard to the 9/11 investigation was allowed to leave the country. Thirty of the 142 people on these flights were interviewed by the FBI, including 22 of the 26 people (23 passengers and 3 private security guards) on the Bin Ladin flight. Many were asked detailed questions. None of the passengers stated that they had any recent contact with Usama Bin Ladin or knew anything about terrorist activity.

        The FBI checked a variety of databases for information on the Bin Ladin flight passengers and searched the aircraft. It is unclear whether the TIPOFF terrorist watchlist was checked. At our request, the Terrorist Screening Center has rechecked the names of individuals on the flight manifests of these six Saudi flights against the current TIPOFF watchlist. There are no matches.

       The FBI has concluded that nobody was allowed to depart on these six flights who the FBI wanted to interview in connection with the 9/11 attacks, or who the FBI later concluded had any involvement in those attacks. To date, we have uncovered no evidence to contradict this conclusion.

Bush and James Bath

Deceit 16

Moore mentions that Bush?s old National Guard buddy and personal friend James Bath had become the money manager for the bin Laden family, saying, ?James Bath himself in turn invested in George W. Bush.? The implication is that Bath invested the bin Laden family?s money in Bush?s failed energy company, Arbusto. He doesn?t mention that Bath has said that he had invested his own money, not the bin Ladens?, in Bush?s company.

Matt Labash, ?Un-Moored from Reality,? Weekly Standard, July 5, 2004. See also: Frank, Newsday.

Bush and Prince Bandar

Deceit 17

Moore accurately points out the distressingly close relationship between Saudi Arabia?s ambassador, Prince Bandar, and the Bush family. But Moore does not explain that Bandar has been a bipartisan Washington power broker for decades, and that Bill Clinton repeatedly relied on Bandar to advance Clinton?s own Middle East agenda. (Elsa Walsh, ?The Prince. How the Saudi Ambassador became Washington?s indispensable operator,? The New Yorker, Mar. 24, 2003.)

President Clinton?s former Ambassador to Saudi Arabia, Wyche Fowler, has been earning a lucrative living as a Saudi apologist and serving as Chairman of the Middle East Institute?a research organization heavily funded by Saudi Arabia. (Joel Mowbray, ?Feeding at the Saudi Trough,? Townhall.com, Oct. 1, 2003.)

I am not suggesting that Mr. Fowler is in any way corrupt; I?m sure that he is sincere (although, in my view, mistaken) in his strongly pro-Saudi viewpoint. What is misleading is for Moore to look at the web of Saudi influence in Washington only in regard to the Republican Bushes, and to ignore the fact that Saudi influence and money are widespread in both parties.

Harken Energy

Deceits 18-19

Bush once served on the Board of Directors of the Harken Energy Company. According to Fahrenheit:

Moore: Yes, it helps to be the President?s son. Especially when you?re being investigated by the Securities and Exchange Commission.
TV reporter: In 1990 when M. Bush was a director of Harken Energy he received this memo from company lawyers warning directors not to sell stock if they had unfavorable information about the company. One week later he sold $848,000 worth of Harken stock. Two months later, Harken announced losses of more than $23 million dollars.

Moore:?Bush beat the rap from the SEC?

What Moore left out: Bush sold the stock long after he checked with those same ?company lawyers?, who told him that the sale was alright. Almost all of the information that caused Harken?s large quarterly loss developed only after Bush had sold the stock.

Despite Moore?s pejorative that Bush ?beat the rap,? no-one has ever found any evidence suggesting that he engaged in illegal insider trading. (Byron York, ?The Facts About Bush and Harken. The president?s story holds up under scrutiny,? National Review Online, July 10, 2002.)

Carlyle Group

Deceits 20-22

Moore?s film suggests that Bush has close family ties to the bin Laden family?principally through Bush?s father?s relationship with the Carlyle Group, a private investment firm. The president?s father, George H.W. Bush, was a senior adviser to the Carlyle Group?s Asian affiliate until recently; members of the bin Laden family?who own one of Saudi Arabia?s biggest construction firms?had invested $2 million in a Carlyle Group fund. Bush Sr. and the bin Ladens have since severed ties with the Carlyle Group, which in any case has a bipartisan roster of partners, including Bill Clinton?s former SEC chairman Arthur Levitt. The movie quotes author Dan Briody claiming that the Carlyle Group ?gained? from September 11 because it owned United Defense, a military contractor. Carlyle Group spokesman Chris Ullman notes that United Defense holds a special distinction among U.S. defense contractors that is not mentioned in Moore?s movie: the firm?s $11 billion Crusader artillery rocket system developed for the U.S. Army is one of the only weapons systems canceled by the Bush administration.

Michael Isikoff, ?Under the Hot Lights. Moore?s movie will make waves. But it?s a fine line between fact and fanaticism. Deconstructing ?Fahrenheit 9/11.? Newsweek, June 28, 2004.

Moore claims that refusing to mention of the Crusader cancellation was alright because the cancellation came after the United Defense IPO. But the cancellation had a serious negative financial impact on Carlyle, since Carlyle still owns 47% of United Defense.

Moore tells us that when Carlyle took United Defense public, they made a one-day profit of $237 million, but under all the public scrutiny, the bin Laden family eventually had to withdraw (Moore doesn?t tell us that they withdrew before the public offering, not after it).

Labash, Weekly Standard.

There is another famous investor in Carlyle whom Moore does not reveal: George Soros. (Oliver Burkeman & Julian Borger, ?The Ex-Presidents? Club,? The Guardian (London), Oct. 31, 2000.) But the fact that the anti-Bush billionaire has invested in Carlyle would detract from Moore?s simplistic conspiracy theory.

Saudi Investments in the United States

Deceit 23

Moore asks Craig Unger: ?How much money do the Saudis have invested in America, roughly??

Unger replies ?Uh, I’ve heard figures as high as $860 billion dollars.?

Instead of relying on unsourced figures that someone says he ?heard,? let?s look at the available data. According to the Institute for Research Middle Eastern Policy (a pro-Saudi think tank which tries to emphasize the importance of Saudi money to the United States), in February 2003 total worldwide Saudi investment was at least $700 billion. Sixty percent of the Saudi investments were in the United States, so the Saudis had about 420 billion invested in the U.S.?a large amount, but less than half of the amount that Moore?s source claims he ?heard.? (Tanya C. Hsu , ?The United States Must Not Neglect Saudi Arabian Investment? Sept. 23, 2003.)

Special Protection for Saudi Embassy

Deceit 24

Moore shows himself filming the movie near the Saudi embassy in Washington, D.C.:

Moore as narrator: Even though we were nowhere near the White House, for some reason the Secret Service had shown up to ask us what we were doing standing across the street from the Saudi embassy?.

Officer: That?s fine. Just wanted to get some information on what was going on.
Moore on camera: Yeah yeah yeah, I didn?t realize the Secret Service guards foreign embassies.
Officer: Uh, not usually, no sir.

But in fact:

Any tourist to Washington, DC, will see plenty of Secret Service Police guarding all of the other foreign embassies which request such protection. Other than guarding the White House and some federal buildings, it?s the largest use of personnel by the Secret Service?s Uniformed Division.

Debbie Schlussel, ?FAKEN-heit 9-11: Michael Moore?s Latest Fiction,? June 25, 2004.

According to the Secret Service website:

Uniformed Division officers provide protection for the White House Complex, the Vice-President’s residence, the Main Treasury Building and Annex, and foreign diplomatic missions and embassies in the Washington, DC area.

So there is nothing strange about the Secret Service protecting the Saudi embassy in Washington?especially since al Qaeda attacks have taken place against Saudi Arabia.

Alleged Bush-Saudi Conspiracy

Deceit 25

Moore asks, ?Is it rude to suggest that when the Bush family wakes up in the morning they might be thinking about what’s best for the Saudis instead of what’s best for you?? But his Bush/Saudi conspiracy theory is contradicted by very obvious facts:

 ?why did Moore?s evil Saudis not join ?the Coalition of the Willing?? Why instead did they force the United States to switch its regional military headquarters to Qatar? If the Bush family and the al-Saud dynasty live in each other?s pockets?then how come the most reactionary regime in the region has been powerless to stop Bush from demolishing its clone in Kabul and its buffer regime in Baghdad? The Saudis hate, as they did in 1991, the idea that Iraq?s recuperated oil industry might challenge their near-monopoly. They fear the liberation of the Shiite Muslims they so despise. To make these elementary points is to collapse the whole pathetic edifice of the film?s ?theory.?

Hitchens, Slate.

Proposed Unocal Pipeline in Afghanistan

Deceits 26-28

Moore mentions that the Taliban visited Texas while Bush was governor, over a possible pipeline deal with Unocal. But Moore doesn?t say that they never actually met with Bush or that the deal went bust in 1998 and had been supported by the Clinton administration.

Labash, Weekly Standard.

Moore asserts that the Afghan war was fought only to enable the Unocal company to build a pipeline. In fact, Unocal dropped that idea back in August 1998.

Jonathan Foreman, ?Moore?s The Pity,? New York Post, June 23, 2004.

In December 1997, a delegation from Afghanistan?s ruling and ruthless Taliban visited the United States to meet with an oil and gas company that had extensive dealings in Texas. The company, Unocal, was interested in building a natural gas line through Afghanistan. Moore implies that Bush, who was then governor of Texas, met with the delegation.

But, as Gannett News Service points out, Bush did not meet with the Taliban representatives. What?s more, Clinton administration officials did sit down with Taliban officials, and the delegation?s visit was made with the Clinton administration?s permission.

McNamee, Chicago Sun-Times.

Bush Administration Relationship with the Taliban

Deceit 29

Moore also tries to paint Bush as sympathetic to the Taliban, which ruled Afghanistan until its overthrow by U.S.-led forces shortly after Sept. 11. Moore shows a March 2001 visit to the United States by a Taliban envoy, saying the Bush administration ?welcomed? the official, Sayed Hashemi, ?to tour the United States to help improve the image of the Taliban.?

Yet Hashemi?s reception at the State Department was hardly welcoming. The administration rejected his claim that the Taliban had complied with U.S. requests to isolate Osama bin Laden and affirmed its nonrecognition of the Taliban. 

?We don?t recognize any government in Afghanistan,? State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said on the day of the visit. 

Frank, Newsday.

Moore Claimed that Osama bin Laden Might be Innocent

Deceit 30

Fahrenheit 911 attempts in every way possible to link Osama bin Laden to George Bush. Moore even claims that Bush deliberately gave bin Laden ?a two month head start? by not putting sufficient forces into Afghanistan soon enough. However:

In late 2002, almost a year after the al-Qaida assault on American society, I had an onstage debate with Michael Moore at the Telluride Film Festival. In the course of this exchange, he stated his view that Osama Bin Laden should be considered innocent until proven guilty. This was, he said, the American way. The intervention in Afghanistan, he maintained, had been at least to that extent unjustified. Something?I cannot guess what, since we knew as much then as we do now?has since apparently persuaded Moore that Osama Bin Laden is as guilty as hell. Indeed, Osama is suddenly so guilty and so all-powerful that any other discussion of any other topic is a dangerous ?distraction? from the fight against him. I believe that I understand the convenience of this late conversion.

Hitchens, Slate.

Afghanistan after Liberation

Deceit 31

we turn to the facts that are deliberately left out, we discover that there is an emerging Afghan army, that the country is now a joint NATO responsibility and thus under the protection of the broadest military alliance in history, that it has a new constitution and is preparing against hellish odds to hold a general election, and that at least a million and a half of its former refugees have opted to return?.[A] highway from Kabul to Kandahar?an insurance against warlordism and a condition of nation-building?is nearing completion with infinite labor and risk. We also discover that the parties of the Afghan secular left?like the parties of the Iraqi secular left?are strongly in favor of the regime change. But this is not the sort of irony in which Moore chooses to deal.

Hitchens, Slate.

John Ashcroft

Deceit 32

Moore mocks Attorney General John Ashcroft by pointing out that Ashcroft once lost a Senate race in Missouri to a man who had died three weeks earlier. ?Voters preferred the dead guy,? Moore says, delivering one of the film?s biggest laugh lines.

It?s a cheap shot. When voters in Missouri cast their ballots for the dead man, Mel Carnahan, they knew they were really voting for Carnahan?s very much alive widow, Jean. The Democratic governor of Missouri had vowed to appoint Jean to the job if Mel won.

McNamee, Chicago Sun-Times.

Rep. Porter Goss

Deceit 33

Defending the Patriot Act, Representative Porter Goss says that he has an ?800 number? for people to call to report problems with the Act. Fahrenheit shoots back than Goss does not have such a number; the ordinary telephone number for Goss?s office is flashed on the screen.

You?d never know by watching Fahrenheit, but Rep. Goss does have a toll-free number to which Patriot Act complaints can be reported. The number belongs to the Committee which Goss chairs, the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. The number is (877) 858-9040.

Although the Committee?s number is toll-free, the prefix is not ?800,? and Moore exploits this trivial fact to create the false impression that Goss lied about having a toll-free number.

Saddam Hussein Never Murdered Americans

Deceits 34-35

Fahrenheit asserts that Saddam?s Iraq was a nation that ?had never attacked the United States. A nation that had never threatened to attack the United States. A nation that had never murdered a single American citizen.?

Jake Tapper (ABC News): You declare in the film that Hussein?s regime had never killed an American ?

Moore: That isn?t what I said. Quote the movie directly.

Tapper: What is the quote exactly?

Moore: ?Murdered.? The government of Iraq did not commit a premeditated murder on an American citizen. I?d like you to point out one.

Tapper: If the government of Iraq permitted a terrorist named Abu Nidal who is certainly responsible for killing Americans to have Iraq as a safe haven; if Saddam Hussein funded suicide bombers in Israel who did kill Americans; if the Iraqi police?now this is not a murder but it?s a plan to murder?to assassinate President Bush which at the time merited airstrikes from President Clinton once that plot was discovered; does that not belie your claim that the Iraqi government never murdered an American or never had a hand in murdering an American?

Moore: No, because nothing you just said is proof that the Iraqi government ever murdered an American citizen. And I am still waiting for you to present that proof.

You?re talking about, they provide safe haven for Abu Nidal after the committed these murders, uh, Iraq helps or supports suicide bombers in Israel. I mean the support, you remember the telethon that the Saudis were having? It?s our allies, the Saudis, that have been providing help and aid to the suicide bombers in Israel. That?s the story you should be covering. Why don?t you cover that story? Why don?t you cover it?

Note Moore?s extremely careful phrasing of the lines which appear to exonerate Saddam, and Moore?s hyper-legal response to Tapper. In fact, Saddam provided refuge to notorious terrorists who had murdered Americans?and therefore Saddam was an accessory to the murders. Saddam order his police to murder a former American President; they attempted to do so, but failed. Yet none of these aggressions against the United States ?count? for Moore, because he has carefully framed his verbs and verb tenses to exclude them.

But even with Moore?s clever phrasing designed to elide Saddam?s culpability in the murders of Americans, Tapper still catches him with an irrefutable point: Saddam did perpetrate the premeditated murder of Americans. Every victim of every Palestinian terrorist bomber who was funded by Saddam Hussein was the victim of premeditated murder?including the American victims.

So what does Moore do? He tries to change the subject. Moore makes the good point that the U.S. media should focus more attention on Saudi financial aid to Palestinian terrorists who murder Americans in Israel. On NRO, I?ve pointed to Saudi terror funding, as have other NRO writers. But pointing out Saudi Arabia?s guilt does not excuse Moore?s blatant lie about Saddam Hussein?s innocence.

Saddam?s Threats

Deceit 36

Moore?s pro-Saddam allegation that Saddam ?never threatened to attack the United States? is true in the narrow sense that Saddam never gave a speech in which he threatened to, for example, send the Iraqi navy and army to conduct an amphibious invasion of Florida.

But Saddam did not need to make verbal threats in order to ?threaten? the United States. He threatened the United States by giving refuges to terrorists who had murdered Americans, and by funding terrorists who were killing Americans in Israel. Saddam gave refuge to terrorists who had attacked the United States by bombing the World Trade Center. Further:

In 1991, a large number of Western hostages were taken by the hideous Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and held in terrible conditions for a long time. After that same invasion was repelled?Saddam having killed quite a few Americans and Egyptians and Syrians and Brits in the meantime and having threatened to kill many more?

        ?.Iraqi forces fired, every day, for 10 years, on the aircraft that patrolled the no-fly zones and staved off further genocide in the north and south of the country. In 1993, a certain Mr. Yasin helped mix the chemicals for the bomb at the World Trade Center and then skipped to Iraq, where he remained a guest of the state until the overthrow of Saddam?.On Dec. 1, 2003, the New York Times reported?and the David Kay report had established?that Saddam had been secretly negotiating with the ?Dear Leader? Kim Jong-il in a series of secret meetings in Syria, as late as the spring of 2003, to buy a North Korean missile system, and missile-production system, right off the shelf. (This attempt was not uncovered until after the fall of Baghdad, the coalition?s presence having meanwhile put an end to the negotiations.)

Hitchens, Slate.

In short, the regime that sheltered the 1993 World Trade Center bombers was attempting to obtain nuclear weapons. Saddam may not have made verbal threats, but his actions spoke louder than words, and they were extremely threatening. Moore shows Secretary of State Colin Powell stating, ?Saddam Hussein is determined to get his hands on a nuclear bomb.? The film suggests that Powell was wrong, but the captured Iraqi documents prove that Powell was correct.

Iraq and al Qaeda

Deceit 37

Moore?makes light of the claimed Bush connection between Saddam and Al-Qaeda. But what about the meeting between hijacker Mohammed Atta and Iraqi Intelligence agents in the Czech Republic before 9-11? What about the Iraqi training camp in Salman Pak where Al-Qaeda used abandoned planes to train to hijack them? What about Ramzi Youssef, the Iraqi Secret Service agent and mastermind of the 1993 WTC bombing, who is the nephew of 9-11 Al-Qaeda mastermind, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed? What about Iraqi Intelligence and Secret Police (Mukhabarat) at a Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Al-Qaeda terror planning convention? These are just some connections, and there are others in ?The Connection,? by Stephen Hayes, that you won?t see in Moore?s silver screen screed.

Schlussel.

The book which Schlussel cites is Stephen F. Hayes, The Connection : How al Qaeda’s Collaboration with Saddam Hussein Has Endangered America (N.Y.: HarperCollins, 2004). Hayes is a writer for The Weekly Standard and much of his writing on the Saddam/Osama connection is available there for free; simply use the search engine and look for articles by Hayes.

Fahrenheit shows Condaleeza Rice saying, "?Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11.? The audience laughs derisively.

Here is what Rice really said:

Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11. It?s not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York.

I agree with Hayes that there is significant evidence of Iraqi involvement in 9/11, but Moore deceptively cut the Rice quote to fool the audience into thinking she was making a particular claim which she actually was not.

Iraq before Liberation

Deceit 38

Moore shows scenes of Baghdad before the invasion (read: liberation) and in his weltanschauung, it?s a place filled with nothing but happy, smiling, giggly, overjoyed Baghdadis. No pain and suffering there. No rape, murder, gassing, imprisoning, silencing of the citizens in these scenes. When he exploits and lingers on the tears of a mother who lost her soldier-son in Iraq, and she wails, ?Why did you have to take him?? Moore does not cut to images of the murderers/terrorists (pardon me, ?insurgents?) in Iraq?or even to God; he cuts to George Bush. When the soldier?s father says the young man died and ?for what??, Moore doesn?t show liberated Iraqis to reply, he cuts instead to an image of Halliburton.

Jarvis, Buzz Machine.

The most offensive sequence in ?Fahrenheit 9/11??s long two hours lasts only a few minutes. It?s Moore?s file-footage depiction of happy Iraq before the Americans began their supposedly pointless invasion. You see men sitting in cafes, kids flying kites, women shopping. Cut to bombs exploding at night.

What Moore presumably doesn?t know, or simply doesn?t care about, is that the building you see being blown up is the Iraqi Ministry of Defense in Baghdad. Not many children flew kites there. It was in a part of the city that ordinary Iraqis weren?t allowed to visit?on pain of death.

        ?Iraq was ruled by a regime that had forced a sixth of its population into fearful exile, that hanged dissidents (real dissidents, not people like Susan Sontag and Tim Robbins) from meathooks and tortured them with blowtorches, and filled thousands of mass graves with the bodies of its massacred citizens. 

        Yes, children played, women shopped and men sat in cafes while that stuff went on?just as people did all those normal things in Somoza?s Nicaragua, Duvalier?s Haiti and for that matter Nazi Germany, and as they do just about everywhere, including in Iraq today. 

Foreman, New York Post.

Invasion of Iraq

Deceits 39-41

According to the footage that ensues, our pilots seem to have hit nothing but women and children.

Labash, Weekly Standard.

Then?wham! From the night sky come the terror weapons of American imperialism. Watching the clips Moore uses, and recalling them well, I can recognize various Saddam palaces and military and police centers getting the treatment?I remember asking Moore at Telluride if he was or was not a pacifist. He would not give a straight answer then, and he doesn?t now, either. I?ll just say that the ?insurgent? side is presented in this film as justifiably outraged, whereas the 30-year record of Baathist war crimes and repression and aggression is not mentioned once. (Actually, that?s not quite right. It is briefly mentioned but only, and smarmily, because of the bad period when Washington preferred Saddam to the likewise unmentioned Ayatollah Khomeini.)

Hitchens, Slate.

Major Coalition Partners Ignored

Deceit 42

Q: You mock the ?coalition of the willing? by only showing the tiny countries that have voiced support. But you leave out England, Spain, Italy and Poland. Why?

Moore: ?This film exists as a counterbalance to what you see on cable news about the coalition. I?m trying to counter the Orwellian nature of the Big Lie, as if when you hear that term, the ?coalition,? that the whole world is behind us.?

Patrick Goldstein, ?Truth teller or story stretcher?? Los Angeles Times, June 22, 2004.

If it is a ?Big Lie? to mention only the powerful and important members of the Coalition (such as England and Australia), then it is an equally ?Big Lie? to mention only the small and insignificant members of the Coalition.

Media Attitudes

Deceit 43

In very selectively edited clips, Moore poses the absurd notion that the main news anchors?Peter Jennings, Dan Rather, and Ted Koppel?wholeheartedly support Bush and the War in Iraq?.Has Moore forgotten the hour-long Saddam softball interview Rather did just prior to the war, [or] Jennings? condescending coverage??

Schlussel.

Jennings is shown delivering a broadcast in which he says, ?Iraqi opposition has faded in the face of American power.? But Jennings was simply stating an undeniable fact, as he stood next to a map showing that Saddam?s army had collapsed everywhere, and all Iraqi cities were in Coalition hands. Despite what Moore implies, Jennings strongly opposed the liberation of Iraq. (Tim Graham, ?Peter?s Peace Platoon. ABC?s Crusade Against ?Arrogant? American Power,? Media Research Center, March 18, 2003.)

Support for Soldiers and Veterans

Deceits 44-47

Bush ?supported closing veterans hospitals? says Moore. The Bush Department of Veteran?s Affairs did propose closing seven hospitals in areas with declining populations where the hospitals were underutilized, and whose veterans could be served by other hospitals. Moore does not say that the Department also proposed building new hospitals in areas where needs were growing, and also building blind rehabilitation centers and spinal cord injury centers. (For more, see the Final Report of the independent commission on veterans hospitals, which agrees with some of the Bush proposals, and with some of the objections raised by critics.)

According to Moore, Bush ?tried to double the prescription drug costs for veterans.? What Bush proposed was raising the prescription co-pay from $7 to $15, for veterans with incomes of over $24,000 a year. Prescription costs would have remained very heavily subsidized by taxpayers.

Bush, announces Moore, ?proposed cutting combat soldiers? pay by 33%.? Not exactly. In addition to regular military salaries, soldiers in certain areas (not just combat zones) receive an ?imminent danger? bonus of $150 a month. In April 2003, Congress retroactively enacted a special increase of $75, for the fiscal year of Oct. 1, 2002 through Sept. 30, 2003. At first, the Bush administration did not support renewing the special bonus, but then changed its position

Likewise, Congress had passed a special one-year increase in the family separation allowance (for service personnel stationed in places where their families cannot joint them) from $100 to $250. Bush?s initial support for not extending the special increase was presented by Moore as ?cutting assistance to their families by 60%.? (Edward Epstein, ?Pentagon reverses course, won?t cut troops? pay,? San Francisco Chronicle, Aug. 15, 2003.)

Even if one characterizes not renewing a special bonus as a ?cut,? Fahrenheit misleads the viewer into thinking that the cuts applied to total compensation, rather than only to pay supplements which constitute only a small percentage of a soldier?s income. An enlisted man with four months of experience receives an annual salary more than $27,000. (Rod Powers, ?What the Recruiter Never Told You: Military Pay.?)

In 2003, Congress enacted a Bush administration proposal to raise all military salaries by 3.7%, with extra ?targeted? pay increases for non-commissioned officer. NCOs are lower-ranking officers who typically join the military with lower levels of education than commissioned officers. (Sgt. 1st Class Doug Sample, ?Defense Department Targets Military Pay Increases for 2004,? American Forces Press Service.)

Congressional Children in War

Deceits 48-51

?Not a single member of Congress wanted to sacrifice their child for the war in Iraq,? announces Moore, after accosting Congressmen to try to convince them to have their children enlist in the military.

Again, Moore?s phrasing is technically true, but duplicitous. Of course no-one would want to ?sacrifice? his child in any way. But despite the impression left by Moore, Sergeant Brooks Johnson, the son of South Dakota Senator Tim Johnson, serves in the 101st Airborne Division. The Division fought in Iraq. Delaware Senator Joseph Biden also has a son on active duty. Earlier in the segment, Moore does note that ?only one? member of Congress has a child in Iraq, but this statement is overshadowed by Moore?s dramatic conclusion about ?not a single member of Congress.?

How about Cabinet members? Fahrenheit never raises the issue, because the answer would not fit Moore?s thesis. Attorney General John Ashcroft?s son is on active duty. (Fahrenheit Fact.)

The editing of the Congressional scenes borders on the fraudulent:

?.Representative Kennedy (R-MN), one of the lawmakers accosted in Fahrenheit 9/11, was censored by Michael Moore.
According to the Star Tribune, Kennedy, when asked if he would be willing to send his son to Iraq, responded by stating that he had a nephew who was en-route to Afghanistan. He went on to inform Moore that his son was thinking about a career in the navy and that two of his nephews had already served in the armed forces. Kennedy?s side of the conversation, however, was cut from the film, leaving him looking bewildered and defensive.

        What was Michael?s excuse for trimming the key segment? Kennedy?s remarks didn?t help his thesis: ?He mentioned that he had a nephew that was going over to Afghanistan,? Moore recounted. ?So then I said ?No, no, that?s not our job here today. We want you to send your child to Iraq. Not a nephew.??

        Kennedy lambasted Moore as a ?master of the misleading? after viewing the interview in question. 

Fahrenheit Fact.

George Stephanopoulos, of ABC News, asked Moore about the selective cuts in the Kennedy footage:

Stephanopoulos: You have a scene when you?re up on Capitol Hill encountering members of Congress, asking them if they would ask their sons and daughters to enlist ? in the military. And one of those members of Congress who appears in the trailer, Mark Kennedy, said you left out what he told you, which is that he has two nephews serving in the military, one in Afghanistan. And he went on to say that, ?Michael Moore doesn?t always give the whole truth. He?s a master of the misleading.?

Moore: Well, at the time, when we interviewed him, he didn?t have any family members in Afghanistan. And when he saw the trailer for this movie, he issued a report to the press saying that he said that he had a kid in?

Stephanopoulos: He said he told you he had two nephews.

Moore:? No, he didn?t. And we released the transcript and we put it on our Web site. This is what I mean by our war room. Any time a guy like this comes along and says, ?I told him I had two nephews and one was going to Iraq and one was going to Afghanistan,? he?s lying. And I?ve got the raw footage and the transcript to prove it. So any time these Republicans come at me like this, this is exactly what they?re going to get. And people can go to my Web site and read the transcript and read the truth. What he just said there, what you just quoted, is not true.

        This Week followed up with the office of Rep. Kennedy. He did have two nephews in the military, but neither served in Iraq. Kennedy?s staff agrees that Moore?s Website is accurate but insists the movie version is misleading. In the film, Moore says, ?Congressman, I?m trying to get members of Congress to get their kids to enlist in the Army and go over to Iraq.? But, from the transcript, here?s the rest:

Moore: Is there any way you could help me with that?

Kennedy: How would I help you?

Moore: Pass it out to other members of Congress.

Kennedy: I?d be happy to ? especially those who voted for the war. I have a nephew on his way to Afghanistan.

This Week, ABC News, June 20, 2004.

So while Fahrenheit pretended that Kennedy rebuffed Moore, Kennedy agreed to help Moore.

Fahrenheit shows Moore calling out to Delaware Republican Michael Castle, who is talking on a cell phone and waves Moore off. Castle is presented one of the Congressmen who would not sacrifice his children. What the film omits is that Rep. Castle does not have any children.

Are Congressional children less likely to serve in Iraq than children from other families? Let?s use Moore?s methodology, and ignore members of extended families (such as nephews) and also ignore service anywhere expect Iraq (even though U.S. forces are currently fighting terrorists in many countries). And like Moore, let us also ignore the fact that some families (like Rep. Castle?s) have no children, or no children of military age.

We then see that of 535 Congressional families, there was one (Brooks Johnson) with a child who served in Iraq. How does this compare with American families in general? In the summer of 2003, U.S. troop levels in Iraq were raised to 145,000. If we factor in troop rotation, we could estimate that about 300,000 people have served in Iraq at some point. According to the Census Bureau, there were 104,705,000 households in the United States in 2000. (See Table 1 of the Census Report.) So the ratio of ordinary U.S. households to Iraqi service personnel is 104,705,000 to 300,000. This reduces to a ratio of 349:1.

In contrast the ratio of Congressional households to Iraqi service personnel is 535:1.

Stated another way, a Congressional household is about one-third less likely than an ordinary household to be closely related to an Iraqi serviceman or servicewoman. In other words, the gap between the service rates of Congressional children and of other people?s children is vastly less than the gap that Moore falsely suggests.

Of course my statistical methodology is very simple. A more sophisticated analysis would look only at Congressional and U.S. households from which at least one child is legally eligible to enlist in the military. Moore, obviously, never attempted such a comparison; instead, he deceived viewers into believing that Congressional families were extremely different from other families in enlistment rates.

Moore ignores the fact that there are 102 veterans currently serving in Congress. Regardless of whether they have children who could join the military, all of the veterans in Congress have personally put themselves at risk to protect their country.

Lila Lipscomb

Deceit 52

Moore exploits the grief of Lila Lipscomb, the mother of a soldier who died in Iraq. She denounces Bush and the War. But there are many mothers and relatives of US soldiers, alive and dead, who served there who don?t agree with her. Don?t look for them in this agit-prop ?film.?

Schlussel.

Fahrenheit wallows in pity for Mrs. Lipscomb. ?I was tired of seeing people like Mrs. Lipscomb suffer,? he claims. Yet Moore?s website takes a different view:

I?m sorry, but the majority of Americans supported this war once it began and, sadly, that majority must now sacrifice their children until enough blood has been let that maybe – just maybe – God and the Iraqi people will forgive us in the end.

Michael Moore, ?Heads Up… from Michael Moore,? MichaelMoore.com, April 14, 2004.

Moore?s Pro-Saddam Source

Deceit 53

Washington Representative Jim McDermott appears in several segments.

        McDermott was one of three Congressmen who went on Saddam?s propaganda tour of Iraq in Fall 2002. The trip was funded by Life for Relief and Development (LRD), a ?charity? which laundered money to terrorist group Hamas? Jordanian operation. LRD is funded in part by Shakir Al-Khafaji, a man who did about $70 million in business with Saddam through his Falcon Trading Group company (based in South Africa). LRD?s Iraqi offices were raided by US troops last week, and the Detroit-area ?charity? is suspected of funding uprisings, such as the one in Fallujah. Its officials bragged of doing so at a recent private US fundraiser.

        Mr. Alkhafaji, one of two Americans named in Iraqi newspapers as a participant in Saddam?s ?Oil for Food? scam, gave Congressman McDermott $5,000 in October 2002 for McDermott?s legal defense fund in a lawsuit against him?.

Schlussel.

Celebrities

Deceit 54

He shows Britney Spears saying she supports the President on Iraq. As if there weren?t a host of brain-dead bimbo celebs, (Madonna, Sean Penn, Russell Simmons, Lenny Kravitz, Susan Sarandon, The Dixie Chicks, etc.), spouting off on the other side.

Schlussel.

Moore Supports Terrorists

Deceit 55

In Fahrenheit 911, Moore claims to support our troops. But in fact, he supports the enemy in Iraq?the coalition of Saddam loyalists, al Qaeda operatives, and terrorists controlled by Iran or Syria?who are united in their desire to murder Iraqis, and to destroy any possibility of democracy in Iraq. Here is what Moore says about the forces who are killing Americans and trying to impose totalitarian rule on Iraq:

The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not ?insurgents? or ?terrorists? or ?The Enemy.? They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow – and they will win.

Michael Moore, ?Heads Up… from Michael Moore,? MichaelMoore.com, April 14, 2004.

Moore is Working with Terrorists to Distribute His Film

Deceit 56

As reported in the trade journal Screen Daily, the Iranian-backed terrorist group Hezbollah is promoting Fahrenheit 911 and Moore?s Middle East distributor, Front Row, is accepting the terrorist assistance:

In terms of marketing the film, Front Row is getting a boost from organizations related to Hezbollah which have rung up from Lebanon to ask if there is anything they can do to support the film. And although [Front Row?s Managing Director Giancarlo] Chacra says he and his company feel strongly that Fahrenheit is not anti-American, but anti-Bush, ?we can?t go against these organizations as they could strongly boycott the film in Lebanon and Syria.?

Nancy Tartaglione, ?Fahrenheit to be first doc released theatrically in Middle East,? Screen Daily.com, June 9, 2004 (website requires registration). The story is discussed in

Samantha Ellis, ?Fahrenheit 9/11 gets help offer from Hezbollah,? The Guardian, June 17, 2004; and ?Moore film distributor OK with terror support: Exec says firm doesn?t want to risk boycott of ?Fahrenheit 9/11? in Mideast,? WorldNetDaily.com, June 22, 2004.

According to Screen Daily, Moore?s film will open in mid-July on ten screens in Lebanon and two screens in Syria. Syria is a terrorist state which invaded Lebanon in the 1970s and controls the nation through a puppet government.

Moore accuses the United States of sacrificing morality because of greed: ?The motivation for war is simple. The U.S. government started the war with Iraq in order to make it easy for U.S. corporations to do business in other countries. They intend to use cheap labor in those countries, which will make Americans rich.? David Brooks, ?All Hail Moore,? New York Times, June 28, 2004.

Yet it turns out that the self-righteous Moore is the one who is accepting aid from a terrorist organization which has murdered and kidnapped hundreds of Americans. Just to avoid a boycott on a dozen screens in a totalitarian terrorist state and its colony?

Theoretically, it might be possible that Moore has no personal awareness that his Middle East distributor is working with terrorists. But such ignorance is unlikely for two reasons: First, Moore?s ?war room? staff monitors controversial articles about the film, and there could hardly be anything more controversial than making common cause with terrorists. Not only has the Hezbollah relationship has been publicized in a leading film trade on-line newspaper, the Moore-Hezbollah connection has been reported one of the very most significant British newspapers, and in an important American on-line newspaper.

Second, Moore was personally questioned about the terrorist connection at a Washington, D.C., press conference. He at first denied the terrorist connection, but was then confronted with the direct quote from his distributor. He stonewalled and refused to answer. So the man who spends so much time getting in other people?s faces with tough questions is unwilling to explain why is knowingly receiving aid from Hezbollah.

Recall the Moore quote from the beginning of this article: the September 11 attacks on the United States were insignificant. Recall that long after the release of an Osama bin Laden videotape demonstrating his responsibility for the September 11 attacks, Moore was asserting that the invasion of Afghanistan was wrong because Osama should be considered innocent until proven guilty. (As if a freely-given and videotaped confession were not proof of guilt.)

The conclusion of Fahrenheit quotes from George Orwell?s 1984, the story of a totalitarian state perpetually at war. According to Orwell, the true purpose of the war was to perpetuate ?a hierarchical society? based on ?poverty and ignorance.? The real purpose of war as ?to keep the very structure of society intact.? Fahrenheit applies Orwell?s lines to the United States of today.

Moore?s purported positions on some issues in Fahrenheit are different from his previous positions: whether people should have made a big deal about September 11, whether Osama bin Laden is guilty of the September 11 attacks, whether American families, including the Lipscombs, deserve to suffer the deaths of their children because they supported the war. But throughout Michael Moore?s career, he has remained true to the central theme of Fahrenheit: capitalist America is the real terrorist state. Because America is a capitalist society, American use of force is necessarily evil.

Four days after September 11, Moore announced: ?We, the United States of America, are culpable in committing so many acts of terror and bloodshed that we better get a clue about the culture of violence in which we have been active participants.? (The statement has been deleted from Moore?s website, but is available through the web archive service called the Wayback Machine.) This is the view of Fahrenheit 911: Iraq under Saddam was fine until America began terrorizing it.

Throughout American history, there have always been patriotic Americans who criticized particular war-time policies, or who believed that a war was a mistake and should be promptly ended. A much smaller number of Americans, however, hated America. They cheered for the fighters who were killing Americans. They belittled America?s right to protect itself, and they produced propaganda designed to destroy American morale and to facilitate enemy victory. To advance their anti-American cause, they sometimes feigned love for the nation they despised.

Today, there are many patriotic Americans who oppose some or all aspects of the War on Terror. I am among them, in that I have strongly opposed the Patriot Act from its first days, have denounced the Bush administration for siding with corporate interests rather than with public safety by sabotaging the Armed Pilots law, and have repeatedly stated that the current Saudi tyranny should be recognized as a major part of the problem in the War on Terror–despite the tyranny’s close relationship with America’s foreign policy elite.

Do the many falsehoods and misrepresentations of Fahrenheit 911 suggest a film producer who just makes careless mistakes? Or does a man who calls Americans: ?possibly the dumbest people on the planet" believe that his audience will be too dumb to tell when he is tricking them? Viewers will have to decide for themselves whether the extremist and extremely deceptive Fahrenheit 911 is a conscientious work of patriotic dissent, or the cynical propaganda of a man who gives wartime aid to America?s murderous enemies, and who accepts their aid in return.

Dave Kopel is Research

Boston-
Might you be able to condence your articles somewhat?

On a side note. I find it amusing after three months of posting on the political threads. How we argue our points merry-go-round style. Some of the issues change, but our view’s do not. Just kind of find it odd how we are all so drawn to it!

Note Moore’s extremely careful phrasing of the lines which appear to exonerate Saddam, and Moore’s hyper-legal response to Tapper.

I’m not going to take the time to respond to very much, it is very long winded, but this item strikes me. Both the right and the left will wrap themselves in terminology when it is convenient to them.

So, I guess it is true that lawyers win arguments by bludgeoning the opposition with paperwork… :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote]vroom wrote:

So, I guess it is true that lawyers win arguments by bludgeoning the opposition with paperwork… :p[/quote]

Touche! =-)

I don’t see what all the fuss is. If Michael Moore made this movie, it must be true and factual.

There is no ‘green screen’ used in the movie (someone said Moore used manipulation to place Bush on a golf course).

Some of the complaints about distortion are worthy, but most of them are like arguing over the position of the deck chairs on the Titanic.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
RSU - "Are you sure, Jeff? I didn’t notice that, and I don’t think Moore would do that. Look, Bush has done enough stupid shit on camera not to have to create some illusion.

Will you deny what he said at the fundraiser? “the haves and the have mores…some call you the elite, I call you my base”

Did he not demand that someone in his camp declare “nice shot” upon shooting some skeet?

Did he not use phrases like “Smoke 'em out” over and over and over?

These are a couple that come to mind. His arrogance is undeniable."


Then Real facts are presented like -

Regarding the “haves and have nots” crack, it was joke deliverd at the Alfred E. SMith Foundation Dinner, where it is tradition for the speakers to trade barbs and poke fun at one another.

Some excerpts:

‘"Your great-grandfather was my favorite kind of governor: the kind who ran for president and lost,’" said Al Gore. ’

‘Bush also mentioned Smith’s ill-fated campaign, admitting, “It gives me hope that in America it’s still not possible for a fellow named Al to be the commander-in-chief.”’
etc…

so RSU why do you think moore wouldn’t do that? You know him? You trust him that much? It appears that you may be blindly trusting him just because he says what you like.

In order for me to consider anything you say credible and free thinking which you always claim to be… then please admit that you might have been duped into believing something that was purposely taken out of context to paint a worse picture than what was really there. If you are truly open minded you will admit that moore was dishonest with this film and led people to believe things as fact that were merely distortions of the truth. I can think of many times where I have said something that if taken out of context separated and shown to somebody else would seem like I am very bad etc… but in reality I might have been playing around with my friends, or acting like an ass on purpose or something. I think we can all think of these situations.

Now considering how open minded and free thinking you are, if you were led to believe that this movie was factual, and if you were led to believe that bush said those things at a fundraiser and was being serious, just imagine how the average ho hum american cattle will respond to this. This is why things like this film are dangerous, Too many people will walk out of that theater and be convinced that everything in the movie was real and truthful. The movie is borderline Slander and yes I saw it too so I can talk about it.

Please respond…

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

[/quote]

I’m still unsure of how I was duped. I saw the film and heard the line in question - “Haves/Have MORES…the elite are my base” - and do not know how what has been said here is proof that Moore doctored the scene somehow.

I know editing played a huge part in the impression the film makes, but I’m not sure that’s always a bad thing. Even if the event that those comments were made at was of the sort you all say, how does that make it okay? “Some call you the elite, I call you my base.” If that’s how he said it, why should Moore explain where it was said, why it was said, how it was said, and who else said what? I’m just not sure it is his responsbility. Maybe, if Bush is accused of catering to the “elite,” it should be his responsibility to refrain from making statements such as these…

RSU,

“Even if the event that those comments were made at was of the sort you all say, how does that make it okay?”

Geez, RSU. Bush was engaging in self-effacing humor. Gore himself, at the same event, poked fun at himself for being a serial exaggerator. Applying the same “it should be his responsibility to refrain from making statements such as these…” to Gore’s comments, well, would just be plain stupid. Any reasonable observer can get the jokes, both of them, without getting their panties in a bunch about the seriousness of them.

As to Moore’s responsibility - information should always be presented in the right context. Deliberate omissions to create a different conclusion is always suspect. Anyone with a pen, a website, or a camera should be held to that standard.

The comments were a gag, a goof - only Leftist hacks dying for a reason to inflate a conspiracy theory would see them any other way.

You were duped because you don’t do simple homework to find out the truth. Moore wants you to think Bush made these comments about ‘haves and have mores’ in a serious context, leaving the viewer with an impression that Bush really is nakedly protecting the rich while approaching the poor with a ‘let them eat cake’ attitude. It’s a deliberately created false impression.

I am beginning to view Moore exactly like I view the papparazzi. I want to be mad at the papparazzi for what they do, but it’s difficult - reason being, if morons didn’t buy trash rags like the Star and the National Enquirer, etc., the papparazzi wouldn’t have a job. The only reason the papparazzi do what they do is because they have an audience of fools to feed.

Moore is the same way. If it weren’t for the navel-gazing twits that believe every shred of Moore’s offal, he would be out of a job and not chuckling all the way to the bank.

Winston Churchill once quipped:

“The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

Couldn’t agree more, and I’d update that line to say ‘average person coming out of a Fahrenheit 9-11 showing’.

[quote]Right Side Up wrote:

I’m still unsure of how I was duped. I saw the film and heard the line in question - “Haves/Have MORES…the elite are my base” - and do not know how what has been said here is proof that Moore doctored the scene somehow.

I know editing played a huge part in the impression the film makes, but I’m not sure that’s always a bad thing. Even if the event that those comments were made at was of the sort you all say, how does that make it okay? “Some call you the elite, I call you my base.” If that’s how he said it, why should Moore explain where it was said, why it was said, how it was said, and who else said what? I’m just not sure it is his responsbility. Maybe, if Bush is accused of catering to the “elite,” it should be his responsibility to refrain from making statements such as these…

[/quote]

RSU:

I don’t believe the point is that Moore doctored this scene. The point is that when you take something completely out of context, you change the meaning. This is obvious with a truncated quote, such as are common with the Bushisms and Kerryisms of the Day on Slate or on the Op-Ed pages of the New York Times (see, generally, Maureen Dowd and Paul Krugman).

However, it is also problematic in film editing. By taking the quote out of the context of the event, which was basically a send-up with lots of joking, and making it look serious, the meaning is completely changed. If you disagree, you’re basically saying that you can take a joke, represent it as serious, and not misrepresent the meaning. I mean, just consider irony and sarcasm – the meaning is the opposite if you take them out of context, irrespective of whether you are only “showing exactly what was said.”

Did Bush say it? Yes. Was it a joke? Yes. I think that politicians should be allowed to make jokes, especially when it involves poking fun at the stereotypes the media tries to impose (i.e. “The Republicans only represent the interests of the RICH!”).

To those still paying attention:

I think the following article does a very nice job of explaining why those with conservative leanings and Republicans reacted so viscerally against Moore’s movie. The fact seemingly serious people can take this seriously is a slap in the face, because of the implicit agreement with his egregious insults.

Also, as a side note, I think that if you find Mr. Moore’s movie proper political expression you lose the right to complain about the coarsening of the political debate in the U.S.

Moore’s the Provocation
by Duane D. Freese

I just saw Fahrenheit 9/11, at a Monday matinee (ticket prices were cheaper). And I now feel what Dick Cheney must have felt when responding to Sen. Patrick Leahy the way he did.

The movie is that provoking, in a way, not of thought, but of anger, and not at Bush or at Michael Moore. No, mine is at Democrats who cheered this bit of film flippery and the film critics who basically think it so engaging. If that’s what Democrats and film critics think about Republicans, then they can go ?

No, I won’t say it. I was taught by my parents many decades ago not to. My father’s worst expression for anything was: “Balls!” But then he was a golfer.

You do, though, really need to understand what people are cheering in this film. Its message isn’t just that Bush stole the 2000 election, or that he’s made blunders, or that he’s a fool, the usual cant. It goes way beyond that. It says the president and his administration are in league with the Saudis and with big business, and that they are sending America’s young men and women from poor neighborhoods abroad to fight a rich white man’s war for personal political gain and profit. That’s the message. And if you support the Bush administration, the next message is that you are either a fool or venal, but in any event an accomplice in mass murder, both here and abroad.

Now, A.O. Scott of The New York Times dismisses that message this way: “The movie’s cheap shots and inconsistencies may frustrate its admirers, but by now we should have learned to appreciate Mr. Moore for what he is. He is rarely subtle, often impolite, frequently tendentious and sometimes self-contradictory. He is also a credit to the Republic.”

Ah, hem. Calling somebody a venal murderer or accomplice to murder is something more than a cheap shot. And applauding the film and its maker while trying to disassociate oneself from its bottom line message is disingenuous. What would he write about a movie, say, that, however cleverly done, claimed that those here who opposed the war in Iraq were in league with the terrorists?

The point is that those who applaud this movie are cheering Moore’s message, because there’s really not much else to cheer in it. It’s a grim movie. And, what can one say in response? What is the argument? Can you reason with them? What policy nuances can you discuss?

I suppose one might try to go over the “cheap shots and inconsistencies.”

For example, Moore claims that Fox News miscalled the election late, and that somehow led to a recount that gave Bush the victory because somebody on Fox’s staff was related to someone in the Bush campaign. There were plenty of problems in Florida from which people in both parties can be rightly angry. One example that cost Bush votes, which most in the media, most Democrats and certainly Moore like to ignore, is that all the networks called Florida for Gore between 7:49 p.m. and 8 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. That was before polls closed in the conservative Florida panhandle which is on Central time. Various studies have indicated Bush lost between 84, probably too low, and 10,000 votes, probably far too high. But it made a close race with its hanging chads even closer.

Some Republicans even called that a liberal media conspiracy. More likely, it was just network incompetence.

Another Moore “cheap shot” was his personal attack on Bush for spending 42 percent of his time “on vacation” prior to 9/11 – 96 of 226 days because he was at his ranch in Texas, or Camp David, or his father’s place in Kennebunkport. His purpose was to make it look as though Bush was not doing his job prior to 9/11. It amounts to an attack about anyone who does any work from their home. The “fact” was based on a Mike Allen story of Aug. 11, 2001. But even Mike Allen pointed out that Bush had a lot of official activities in his “vacation” time and much of it – 66 days – was on weekends, during which Bush also worked. Indeed, just a quick review of the White House press briefings indicates how hard a president works, even on vacation. Allen also noted the many days spent “on vacation” at their favorite places by Reagan, Bush the elder, Nixon, Eisenhower and, even, Truman.

And finally, just do this calculation of your own “vacation” time if you take the weekend off, have 10 days of vacation and take off the 10 federal holidays and you are “on vacation” 34 percent of the time. Work from home a day a week and that jumps to 48 percent. Members of Congress, since they have numerous district work periods and travel home most weekends to mix with district residents are on vacation 60 percent of the time.

Cheap shot? Distorting reality is distorting reality. It can encourage things like former President Jimmy Carter’s foolish Rose Garden strategy in 1980 where he wouldn’t leave the White House to even campaign after hostages were taken in Iran.

A plain flat wrong little fact was Moore claiming that only one member of Congress had a kid in the military. He made a big deal of that as a point about how the nation enlists poor men and, now, women to fight in its wars.

Moore’s point about the make up of the military has resonance. Thirty percent of the services are made up of African Americans; 8 percent of Hispanics. Most are from lower-income and lower-middle income families. He believes that if only more of the leaders’ kids were in service, the country wouldn’t send so many of these poorer young people off to war.

History doesn’t support that conclusion. And the conflation of who should serve in the military and whether to fight is illogical, as one sharp liberal commentator, editor Richard Just of The New Republic Online and who is opposed to Bush, noted. But it is an opinion that one can argue. What is wrong is to demean members of Congress as somehow being pro-war simply because their kids aren’t on the line and claiming only one member of Congress had a child in military service.

The fact is at least four have kids in active military service, including in Iraq, and several others have them in the reserves. Still others have nephews and nieces in the service. And many simply have kids too young or too old to serve, or no kids at all. In addition, 30 percent in Congress have performed military service, so many know what war is all about.

But, hey, what difference does it make that Moore distorts these little facts? Isn’t this all nitpickey little stuff compared to his big message?

Yes, it is. Everything one can say about the film is “nitpicky” little stuff, because that’s what its fabric is all about – nits he tries to patch together.

Moore’s conspiracy theory about the Bush family being in league with the Saudis is woven together by Saudis and even members of the Bin Laden family being whisked out of the country after Sept. 11. Moore puts responsibility for that at the White House, implying presidential desire to prevent their being questioned and thus preventing embarrassing disclosures about Bush-Saudi ties. But who gave the word to let the Saudis go? Richard Clarke, the very same one Democrats cheer for scolding the White House for not doing enough about 9/11 in its nine months in office. Talk about a twisted conspiracy.

Then there’s the Carlyle Group, the so secret defense and energy investment group in which the Saudis and Bush family are both involved. Only CalPERS – the California Public Employee Retirement System – is also, at a 5.5 percent stake. So now California’s retirees are in on it, too!

Then there’s the energy conspiracy with the Taliban, a leader of whom came to Texas when Bush was governor. Only thing, the leader never met with Bush and his entry to the United States was approved by the Clinton administration.

And oh, yes, there’s the military-industrial complex profiteering from the war. When the mother of a soldier who died in Iraq, crying, asks, “What for?” Moore shoots to a convention of defense contractors for his answer: Halliburton. Ah, yes, that’s why we went to war in Iraq.

As Christopher Hitchens has written in Slate Online, the various conspiracy theories all are at odds with each other. You can’t bump one up against the other without realizing that the whole fabric of the film is “shoddy,” the pressed material from which Union uniforms were made at the start of the Civil War and which fell apart with the first rain.

And to applaud Moore as “a credit to the Republic” basically applauds all that shoddiness.

No, if you come up to me praising Moore’s film I won’t tell you to go ?, but I may just yell, “Fore,” in honor of my father, and ask to play on through. I don’t want to coarsen the public debate anymore than it’s degenerated to already.

RSU

YOU were duped because as stated earlier, Bush was joking!! He was trying to be funny maybe he is guilty of bad joke telling although probably everyone there got a kick out of it.

Moore played the line and treated it as if bush had said it seriously at a campaign fundraiser. You believed Bush had actually meant that seriously and then posted how arrogant and elitist Bush was for saying something like that.

What Moore did was dishonest at best. You took the statement so seriously that you took the bait and posted it here as a political point that GWB was in some way “bad” for saying this. This is the real problem with people like Moore. He lies to his own base in an attempt to create a frenzy, then the base believes it to be true just because it’s what they want to be true. In essence if you dislike liars or distorters, democrats should see that Moore is actually hurting them by compromising thier integrity.

I love honest, factual debate, it is healthy and good. I despise any side spinning the crap out of facts to make a point that isn’t real.

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

Thunder, BB, Vegita: Perhaps I am mistaken in this regard…

Bush can certainly make jokes at a function such as this – and I can still take umbrage to the remark he made. For those of us who have believed Bush was in the hands of the elite well before Farenheit 9/11, it pains us to hear him make a remark like that - in any context.

Let me ask (at least) the three of you this: is any point that is made in Farenheit 9/11 worth noting? Worth considering? Is it completely crap? Is there nothing that is truly worth raising your eyebrows at, doubting Bush or the Administration at all?

RSU,

None.

Moore doesn’t argue politics. He doesn’t argue principles.

His only offering is that Bush is an evil mastermind beholden to corrupt interests and a dupe (although how he is both Moore never explains).

If Moore had any semblance of honesty or integrity in his presentation - and he actually talked about the politics and issues at stake - the film might be worth something.

As is, it’s just a loosely fit and embarassingly unintelligent set of points trying to perpetutate a conspiracy theory in hopes that enough people go into a voting booth in the fall and resist the urge to pull the lever for Bush because they are spooked.

Kids start rumors in high school to try and hurt other kids or get them in trouble - maybe ruin their chances at getting voted prom queen. Moore’s tact is absolutely no different - and just as childish.

In common parlance, that’s called propaganda, and it has no redeeming quality to independent-minded folk.

I read liberal opinion pieces all the time. It’s not Moore’s political persuasion that I have trouble with - it’s his low quality (the stuff isn’t funny), it’s originality (it’s very trite), it’s poignancy (he’s not arguing principles), and it’s integrity (he has none).

A complete waste of film and time.