See Julius, nobody on this board is hiding their AAS usage, and they work hard. None of them are the archetype you are ranting about. juice20jd had a really good post, a page back, I think. Something to the effect of those who don’t work hard while gearing up are wasting their time, and the gear being the icing on the cake… I made a reasonable post, why can’t you? Stop all this bitchass demonizing already.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Why is it anyone’s business what I do, whether I juice, or not?
[/quote]
Why? because it is supporting illegal drug trafficking. I?m not saying it should be illegal, but it is, and we live in a country where we agree to weigh everyone?s rights, privilages and responsibilities to insure domestic tranquility. And even though I don’t necessarily believe it should be illegal, its not an unjustly restrictive law because it doesn’t deny anyone life or basic liberty. I guess you could argue the “unenforced law” is bad and since so many people get away with using it, its not being adequately enforced.
On another note, I don?t ultimately really care how big or strong I get, I care about taking up a challenge and trying to meet it. All that drugs would do is change the level of the challenge.
If I were a national level athlete I might think otherwise.
If I were a real skinny guy who couldn?t get his arms over 15 inches I?d probably think otherwise,but I’m not, so I don’t have to answer “what ifs?” here.
When I squat and deadlift 3x BW and bench 2x BW naturally and with no equipments, I may develop other goals, but that’s at least two years of fun and challenge in the future.
Actually, I do care how big and strong I get. I really meant that if I don’t end up benching 405 at 198 in the next 2 years, I won’t consider myself to be a total failure. I’ll reevaluate and try again, or I may change my goals slightly.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Why is it anyone’s business what I do, whether I juice, or not?
Why? because it is supporting illegal drug trafficking. I?m not saying it should be illegal, but it is, and we live in a country where we agree to weigh everyone?s rights, privilages and responsibilities to insure domestic tranquility. And even though I don’t necessarily believe it should be illegal, its not an unjustly restrictive law because it doesn’t deny anyone life or basic liberty. I guess you could argue the “unenforced law” is bad and since so many people get away with using it, its not being adequately enforced.
On another note, I don?t ultimately really care how big or strong I get, I care about taking up a challenge and trying to meet it. All that drugs would do is change the level of the challenge.
If I were a national level athlete I might think otherwise.
If I were a real skinny guy who couldn?t get his arms over 15 inches I?d probably think otherwise,but I’m not, so I don’t have to answer “what ifs?” here.
When I squat and deadlift 3x BW and bench 2x BW naturally and with no equipments, I may develop other goals, but that’s at least two years of fun and challenge in the future. [/quote]
In the context of the gym - having a kid come up and ask if I juice is none of their business.
It’s nobody’s business - especially since it is an illegal hobby. Telling people you juice can land you in jail.
For me, it will remain no one’s business.
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
It is just when people specifically tell you that they are natural when boasting about strength feats done under this false pretense that pisses me off.
[/quote]
Julius, did they say they were natural in response to a question from you? Because I’ll agree, if someone walked around saying “i benched xxx and I’m lifetime drug free” or “I squat more than those juiceheads and I’m natural” and I then found out they were using, yeah, at the very least I would think this was weird/pathological. But if I was talking with someone and they said, hey, guess what, I just weighed myself and I’m xxx" or “I just clean and jerked xxx” and then YOU asked them if they were natural … yeah, I think it’s been pointed out numerous times on this thread why they would lie. They were probably excited about breaking a milesotne and you took them aback. the illegality combined with the fact that they dont trust you would make them want to lie, more to say “no I dont do anything illegal” than to say yeah, im natural. Which one of these best describes the situation with your friends?
Roargathor,
I still dont understand why you care so much about steroids. You mention competition - do you actually compete? Or is this just a hypothetical? I compete in strongman, and I happen to be lifetime drug free. I am SURE that some of the guys who have placed ahead of me have been on gear. So what? They’ve made their decision, I’ve made mine. Dont mistake me either, it’s not that I dont want to win. But I’m improving every month and every contest. If you feel that you’re at a point where you’ve maxed your natural abilities and the ONLY ones beating you are the juiceheads, then you have a choice to make - get on gear or quit your sport, or accept that, in all likelihood, you will never be the #1 guy in your endeavour. I should also add that the above assumes that you are competing in a “don’t ask, don’t tell” association, eg NAS, WPO, IFBB, etc. If the people who concern you are competing in nominally drug free competitions, that is a whole other thread in itself.
I have another question for you - assuming you do compete, lets say for a second that you someday maximize your natural abilities. Let’s even say that youre the second best in the world at what you do. But theres this one sob you JUST - CANNOT - BEAT. Would you feel better about it if the reason that he consistently beat you was because of natural God-given ability? Why is that better than if he’s beating you in spite of inferior genetics and because of his hard work and chemical enhancement?
I think the issue is telling the lie for no reason.
If you are squatting 1k pounds, we know you’re juicing, there’s no need to preach the drug-free bullshit.
Out of respect, and to not insult people’s inellegence…just don’t tell the blatant lie, that you’re drug free.
In other words, don’t ask don’t tell. And if you wanna compete on an even footing, and be sure that nobody has an unfair advantage, wouldn’t you logically compete in a non-tested federation? Seems like the best way to be 100% sure that there’s nobody getting an “unfair” advantage.
If you wanna do drug free bodybuilding, don’t try to compete in the IFBB. Compete in the one of those other organizations like the natural ones…The WANNA-B or whatever and the LMAO…I’m pretty sure those acronyms are accurate…
[quote]Roargathor wrote:
You would belive a lean 200 at 5’11 is skinny.
[/quote]
It is.
[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
I think the issue is telling the lie for no reason.
If you are squatting 1k pounds, we know you’re juicing, there’s no need to preach the drug-free bullshit.
Out of respect, and to not insult people’s inellegence…just don’t tell the blatant lie, that you’re drug free.
In other words, don’t ask don’t tell. And if you wanna compete on an even footing, and be sure that nobody has an unfair advantage, wouldn’t you logically compete in a non-tested federation? Seems like the best way to be 100% sure that there’s nobody getting an “unfair” advantage.
If you wanna do drug free bodybuilding, don’t try to compete in the IFBB. Compete in the one of those other organizations like the natural ones…The WANNA-B or whatever and the LMAO…I’m pretty sure those acronyms are accurate…[/quote]
I agree with you Anthony,
But, as a natural BB who have competed in natural and non naturals and held my own in both, it seems that most of the ‘users’ don’t know what the hell they are doing. My only beef is if you use do not show up at a’natural’show claiming that you are. There are other orginizations that do not drug test…
From what I have seen on many levels most guys are wasting their health and money getting ready for BB show on the gear.
K.
[quote]TDog305 wrote:
Roargathor wrote:
You would belive a lean 200 at 5’11 is skinny.
It is.[/quote]
Compared to allot people at the gym I am skinny, but compared to myself the way I was, im not. Thats all that matters to me really. Besides, I’ve only been training for 4 years, 2 of which were not very efficient. Everyone else I know who has impressive musculature have been training for longer and are older than I am. In the big picture, I’m doing fine.
[quote]Roargathor wrote:
juice20jd wrote:
well, arguing against an ignorant man, is fighting a losing battle…you sir are very ignorant…and lack the base fundamentals required to have an educated opinion because you allow personal bias and/or insecurity to shrink your cognitive ability down to that of the household dog.
while you’re crusading to clean up the sports universe of “cheats” and abusers…take some time to cure aids, cancer and create world peace for all…self righteous bitch. fuck you…
buh bye
Umm, yes, I think that my origional post well established that I was biased. Insecure no, not at all, in fact I am soo secure with myself that I openly express my opinions and moral stances without fear of prosecution or attack from those I aim to thwart.
But as for your feeble attempt to undermine my “self righteousness” Why on earth would I want to cure aids or cancer or create world peace? Do you have any idea of what that would do to the population?
[/quote]
feeble? again, you lack the intelligence to grasp what i was alluding to. i’m sure others reading this are able to read between the lines…you however are simple minded…which is obvious from your posts,and your inability to respond with substance while addressing the topic. its just verbal diarrhea. smoke and mirrors. typical of a smug fool, who is incapable of seeing any point of view besides his own skewed vision of how things should be…God forbid you may be making an oversight, or (gasp) be wrong in your assinine assumptions and sweeping generalizations.
have a nice day
[quote]Roargathor wrote:
TDog305 wrote:
Roargathor wrote:
You would belive a lean 200 at 5’11 is skinny.
It is.
Compared to allot people at the gym I am skinny, but compared to myself the way I was, im not. Thats all that matters to me really. Besides, I’ve only been training for 4 years, 2 of which were not very efficient. Everyone else I know who has impressive musculature have been training for longer and are older than I am. In the big picture, I’m doing fine. [/quote]
Since you answered a post that was put up after mine, I’m assuming that you didnt realize that the last half of my post was directed at you. I’m curious as to your answer. The post to which I’m referring is this one:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1129298&pageNo=4#1132186
[quote]KBCThird wrote:
Roargathor,
I still dont understand why you care so much about steroids. You mention competition - do you actually compete? Or is this just a hypothetical? I compete in strongman, and I happen to be lifetime drug free. I am SURE that some of the guys who have placed ahead of me have been on gear. So what? They’ve made their decision, I’ve made mine. Dont mistake me either, it’s not that I dont want to win. But I’m improving every month and every contest. If you feel that you’re at a point where you’ve maxed your natural abilities and the ONLY ones beating you are the juiceheads, then you have a choice to make - get on gear or quit your sport, or accept that, in all likelihood, you will never be the #1 guy in your endeavour. I should also add that the above assumes that you are competing in a “don’t ask, don’t tell” association, eg NAS, WPO, IFBB, etc. If the people who concern you are competing in nominally drug free competitions, that is a whole other thread in itself.
I have another question for you - assuming you do compete, lets say for a second that you someday maximize your natural abilities. Let’s even say that youre the second best in the world at what you do. But theres this one sob you JUST - CANNOT - BEAT. Would you feel better about it if the reason that he consistently beat you was because of natural God-given ability? Why is that better than if he’s beating you in spite of inferior genetics and because of his hard work and chemical enhancement?
[/quote]
I don’t compete in bb, I’m a jerk when I don’t eat enough as it is, My gf would curb me if I was cutting for a contest. Asside from that I see your point. I guess the fact is that steroids are here to stay so I should just learn to tolorate their use in the gym, be it recreational or for competition. Whatever, let the juicers juice. I just don’t understand the need for it. Guess Im just ignorant and biased. Sorry if I offended anyone. I really didn’t think that many people would be so easily roused. That is all.
[quote]Roargathor wrote:
TDog305 wrote:
Roargathor wrote:
You would belive a lean 200 at 5’11 is skinny.
It is.
Compared to allot people at the gym I am skinny, but compared to myself the way I was, im not. Thats all that matters to me really. Besides, I’ve only been training for 4 years, 2 of which were not very efficient. Everyone else I know who has impressive musculature have been training for longer and are older than I am. In the big picture, I’m doing fine. [/quote]
Ladies and gentlemen:
I present to you - Stuart Smalley of the weight room. Please give us all a daily affirmation that we might take with us when we go to train.
[quote]juice20jd wrote:
Roargathor wrote:
juice20jd wrote:
well, arguing against an ignorant man, is fighting a losing battle…you sir are very ignorant…and lack the base fundamentals required to have an educated opinion because you allow personal bias and/or insecurity to shrink your cognitive ability down to that of the household dog.
while you’re crusading to clean up the sports universe of “cheats” and abusers…take some time to cure aids, cancer and create world peace for all…self righteous bitch. fuck you…
buh bye
Umm, yes, I think that my origional post well established that I was biased. Insecure no, not at all, in fact I am soo secure with myself that I openly express my opinions and moral stances without fear of prosecution or attack from those I aim to thwart.
But as for your feeble attempt to undermine my “self righteousness” Why on earth would I want to cure aids or cancer or create world peace? Do you have any idea of what that would do to the population?
feeble? again, you lack the intelligence to grasp what i was alluding to. i’m sure others reading this are able to read between the lines…you however are simple minded…which is obvious from your posts,and your inability to respond with substance while addressing the topic. its just verbal diarrhea. smoke and mirrors. typical of a smug fool, who is incapable of seeing any point of view besides his own skewed vision of how things should be…God forbid you may be making an oversight, or (gasp) be wrong in your assinine assumptions and sweeping generalizations.
have a nice day
[/quote]
No no no, Calm down big guy, I see your veiws, I can read between the lines. But let me ask you this… I dont know if you area juicer or not, For the sake of this argument I will assume that you are. Let me ask you, any of you. Why do steroids? We all have heard why not to, be it moral/phisical reasons why not to wheather they reasons are “smoke and mirrors” or real reasons. (I know there are extreams and every case is situational) but give me a reason why anyone would do steroids. The question is why? Why versus why not. Please enlighten me so that I might see passed my skewed vision of how things should be.
[quote]Roargathor wrote:
TDog305 wrote:
Roargathor wrote:
You would belive a lean 200 at 5’11 is skinny.
It is.
Compared to allot people at the gym I am skinny, but compared to myself the way I was, im not. Thats all that matters to me really. Besides, I’ve only been training for 4 years, 2 of which were not very efficient. Everyone else I know who has impressive musculature have been training for longer and are older than I am. In the big picture, I’m doing fine. [/quote]
Roargather:
That was a very good post. Especially the part about being 200lbs “is what matters to me.”
Since you assess yourself by your own standards and not someone else’s standards, you have the potential to be satisfied. Guys who are always looking at the guy next to them who is benching more and has less bodyfat, are fucked. No matter how hard you train and how incredible your gains, there is always someone better than you in some aspect. And it doesn’t matter whether you are natural or a juicer, if you are looking at others and thinking you don’t measure up, then you will never be satisfied with anything you do in bodybuilding. Or in life.
The goal should be (when someone uses the word “should”, watch out because they are about to preach lol) to compete with yourself and meet your own goals without reference to others. Competetive athletes are excepted of course.
This brings us to the naturals coming on here and bitching and moaning about juicers. Why spend so much time and energy worrying about what other guys are doing. Who gives a fuck. You are competing against your own standards, so are they. Juicers are taking juice for all sorts of reasons. Its a personal decision and affects only themselves. It does not hurt others and therefore they should be left alone to pursue their happiness as they see fit.
As someone mentioned, guys juicing in a sport that prohibits steroids is a whole different topic in itself. My post is directed at the rest of us.
The fact that a juicer might bench more than Julius Ceasar, or looks better or whatever, has to be the dumbest reason ever put forward for not juicing. The envy that screams out of JC’s posts is embarassing to look at. If JC would compete with himself and not obsess about how others are doing he might find some contentment in his life. Envy can eat someone up inside, and make them miserable to be around.
Mertdawg put up a great post about why he is a natural. And he has no bitterness about juicers. There may have been a post or two in this thread by a juicer who made fun of someone who is natural. You need to ignore that shit, with rare exceptions juicers have all the respect in the world for guys who stay natural.
For me, when i see a juicer in the gym push 500lbs on the bench, i think: “Goddam that guy is strong”. If I see a natural push 400lbs on a bench, i think: “Goddam that guy is strong.”
Seems to me both guys are kicking ass in the gym. All this talk about steroids being evil, and natural being the only way to go is misguided. Pursue your goals as you see fit. You won’t get any flak from me.
[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
If you wanna do drug free bodybuilding, don’t try to compete in the IFBB. Compete in the one of those other organizations like the natural ones…The WANNA-B or whatever and the LMAO…I’m pretty sure those acronyms are accurate…[/quote]
Perhaps for drug users bodybuilding, the idhab(i don’t have any balls) or the illap(i live like a pararsite) what do u think of those acronyms, i think they are pretty accurate considering the pro’s that i have meet.
[quote]Roargathor wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Roargathor,
I still dont understand why you care so much about steroids. You mention competition - do you actually compete? Or is this just a hypothetical? I compete in strongman, and I happen to be lifetime drug free. I am SURE that some of the guys who have placed ahead of me have been on gear. So what? They’ve made their decision, I’ve made mine. Dont mistake me either, it’s not that I dont want to win. But I’m improving every month and every contest. If you feel that you’re at a point where you’ve maxed your natural abilities and the ONLY ones beating you are the juiceheads, then you have a choice to make - get on gear or quit your sport, or accept that, in all likelihood, you will never be the #1 guy in your endeavour. I should also add that the above assumes that you are competing in a “don’t ask, don’t tell” association, eg NAS, WPO, IFBB, etc. If the people who concern you are competing in nominally drug free competitions, that is a whole other thread in itself.
I have another question for you - assuming you do compete, lets say for a second that you someday maximize your natural abilities. Let’s even say that youre the second best in the world at what you do. But theres this one sob you JUST - CANNOT - BEAT. Would you feel better about it if the reason that he consistently beat you was because of natural God-given ability? Why is that better than if he’s beating you in spite of inferior genetics and because of his hard work and chemical enhancement?
I don’t compete in bb, I’m a jerk when I don’t eat enough as it is, My gf would curb me if I was cutting for a contest. Asside from that I see your point. I guess the fact is that steroids are here to stay so I should just learn to tolorate their use in the gym, be it recreational or for competition. Whatever, let the juicers juice. I just don’t understand the need for it. Guess Im just ignorant and biased. Sorry if I offended anyone. I really didn’t think that many people would be so easily roused. That is all. [/quote]
lol, you didn’t think you’d piss people off by whining about steroid users in a steroid forum?
Either way, I like the way this thread has gone in the last page here, and I’ll even give you credit for trying to be rational and ask why someone would do steroids, instead of just continuing to insult steroid users. As for that, I’ll let someone who actually does steroids answer that question.
FloridaBoy, good post.
Actually I think that the people in question were making the claims that they were natural to impress me.
I don’t really care if people do juice or even smoke pot for that matter; to me they are similar things. I don’t see anyone knocking off banks to support either one, so it’s your body. In this manner I am more of a libertarian I guess.
I don’t know why someone said that my posts are jealous or whatever.
Look at what I do for a living. I can not only afford them if I wanted to, but shit I could even make them. Sure they are a little trickier than sophmore organic chemistry, but not rocket science.
But… I do know about things like nasty isomers, chiral isomers and all of that other bullshit that sloppy synthesis chemists can put in things if they are careless or don’t take the time to purify their products. Which you might be putting in your body unknowingly.
At this point in my life, I am honestly content with being natural. I want to see what sort of strength feats I can do naturally now.
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
Look at what I do for a living. I can not only afford them if I wanted to, but shit I could even make them. Sure they are a little trickier than sophmore organic chemistry, but not rocket science.
[/quote]
I make my own…
In my balls!
Here is an idea. Go get yourself a life and stop worrying about other people. It doesn’t matter. It’s not effecting you. You don’t even know them .