Judging Yourself and Sarah Palin

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

You can’t have a fair evaluation of whether the judiciary is getting it “right” or “wrong” if your compass is largely driven by your public policy preferences - which appears to be the case.[/quote]

And this is precisely the problem. With me. With YOU. And with judges. I don’t actually think it is possible to avoid being influenced by your own view of morality and desires for the direction the country should head. I was simply pointing out that conservative judges are guilty as well. And I think would be increasingly show if they comprised a majority of the court.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

Oh, I’m serious. The decision split purely on party lines. 5 judges decided based on equal protection grounds, ignoring due process concerns. They got the president they wanted. The Supreme Court should not have decided the case at all. [/quote]

Well, two things:

  1. The fact that the decision was split down predictable lines is not an indication of engineering the presidential outcome the bloc wanted, and the ravaging of Due Process came at the hands of the Florida Supreme Court - allowing a national election be decided by the naked politics of a state supreme court is no matter that the Supreme Court should have ignored, as messy as the case was.

  2. I was also objecting to your idea that the decisions based on the 14th Amendment “had no reasonable basis at all” - an unserious claim.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

And this is precisely the problem. With me. With YOU. And with judges. I don’t actually think it is possible to avoid being influenced by your own view of morality and desires for the direction the country should head. I was simply pointing out that conservative judges are guilty as well. And I think would be increasingly show if they comprised a majority of the court.[/quote]

I don’t expect perfection, but I expect professional, dispassionate commitment to fair application of law.

Conservative judges are not nearly as guilty of it as you let on, witnessed by your own admission that you have no recent decisions to back the point.

That said, and I have used this example a thousand times here: if the Supreme Court struck down progressive tax rates as a violation of the Equal Protection clause and compelled a “flat tax”, I would be outraged at the judicial activism, even though I favor, as a political matter, a flat(ter) tax rate structure.

I offer this only as an example, but conservatives are, by and large, much more amenable to understand the difference between politics and law. Conservatives say the same, generally, about abortion: that though the Constitution doesn’t protect a right to abortion, it also does not outlaw it should a state decide to permit it, even though the conservative may politically be against allowing abortion as a policy matter.

Name one instance when a left-liberal-“progressive” viewer of the law would think or has thought an activist protection of a right or policy they like as a policy matter was the wrong decision on the law.

Even a hypothetical will do.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

No doubt that was a bad decision. But bad because it was wrongly decided or because the court should not have ruled on it at all? The Constitution prohibits cruel and unusual punishment. Doesn’t define what it it is. Who’s going to define it? The legislature? Well it hasn’t. Until Congress passes a federal law deciding what is cruel and unusual punishment for each and every crime (and it’s not the role of Congress to do so), someone must make these decisions when the issue arises.

There are plenty of instances where the court created law when it shouldn’t have. Most of the privacy rights are an example. Even those I agree with from a normative perspective were fashioned out of nowhere. This example is not one of them. This is an interpretation of what constitutes a clearly defined prohibition laid out in the constitution. This was a bad decision because the court decided wrongly on what is cruel and unusual punishment.

Not because it overstepped its authority in making the decision. You think there should be no final arbiter? There are plenty of instances where state law has been blatantly unconstitutional and directly contravened constitutional prohibitions.
[/quote]

I think what the framers of the constitution had in mind when they wrote cruel and unusual punishment was more along the lines of things like torture, not interfering in the right of states/the people to give the death sentence to child rapists.

Also, I don’t like the fact that they have lifetime appointments. Lifetime appointments are for monarchs. In what other job do you get a “lifetime appointment” even if you are incompetent or don’t live up to your employer’s expectations?

I am far from being a SCOTUS scholar, but lifetime appointments are probably not a bad idea.

It appears to me that having to continually “run” or be appointed has the drawback of being too susceptible to the whims of politics (ala Congress) and not Law.

But what about a one time, limited appointment?

I think that would lead to judges wanting to “leave their mark” in the limited time they have.

I think that the system of tough confirmation then lifetime appointment has proven to not be a bad way to do it.

(And obviously MANY disagree).

Mufasa

[quote]phil_leotardo wrote:
jsbrook wrote:

No doubt that was a bad decision. But bad because it was wrongly decided or because the court should not have ruled on it at all? The Constitution prohibits cruel and unusual punishment.

Doesn’t define what it it is. Who’s going to define it? The legislature? Well it hasn’t. Until Congress passes a federal law deciding what is cruel and unusual punishment for each and every crime (and it’s not the role of Congress to do so), someone must make these decisions when the issue arises.

There are plenty of instances where the court created law when it shouldn’t have. Most of the privacy rights are an example. Even those I agree with from a normative perspective were fashioned out of nowhere.

This example is not one of them. This is an interpretation of what constitutes a clearly defined prohibition laid out in the constitution. This was a bad decision because the court decided wrongly on what is cruel and unusual punishment.

Not because it overstepped its authority in making the decision. You think there should be no final arbiter? There are plenty of instances where state law has been blatantly unconstitutional and directly contravened constitutional prohibitions.

I think what the framers of the constitution had in mind when they wrote cruel and unusual punishment was more along the lines of things like torture, not interfering in the right of states/the people to give the death sentence to child rapists.

Also, I don’t like the fact that they have lifetime appointments. Lifetime appointments are for monarchs. In what other job do you get a “lifetime appointment” even if you are incompetent or don’t live up to your employer’s expectations?

[/quote]

While I would be entirely amenable to revoking Supreme Court Justices for gross incompetence as well as misconduct (which is permissible under impeachment), it should be very difficult to do.

Lifetime appointments are by design. As discussion on this thread shows, decisions are already (perhaps inevitably) influenced by the Justices own politics and conceptions of morality. It is purposeful that justices cannot be removed because their decisions are politically unpopular when they very well may be legally correct.

Federal courts get it wrong. Justices are influenced by their own political views. But you just need to look to state courts where judges campaign and are elected to see decisions made based on politics and not law. Regularly. And, there, stare decisis is often a foreign concept and precedent is fleeting.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
jsbrook wrote:

And this is precisely the problem. With me. With YOU. And with judges. I don’t actually think it is possible to avoid being influenced by your own view of morality and desires for the direction the country should head. I was simply pointing out that conservative judges are guilty as well. And I think would be increasingly show if they comprised a majority of the court.

I don’t expect perfection, but I expect professional, dispassionate commitment to fair application of law.

Conservative judges are not nearly as guilty of it as you let on, witnessed by your own admission that you have no recent decisions to back the point.

That said, and I have used this example a thousand times here: if the Supreme Court struck down progressive tax rates as a violation of the Equal Protection clause and compelled a “flat tax”, I would be outraged at the judicial activism, even though I favor, as a political matter, a flat(ter) tax rate structure.

I offer this only as an example, but conservatives are, by and large, much more amenable to understand the difference between politics and law. Conservatives say the same, generally, about abortion: that though the Constitution doesn’t protect a right to abortion, it also does not outlaw it should a state decide to permit it, even though the conservative may politically be against allowing abortion as a policy matter.

Name one instance when a left-liberal-“progressive” viewer of the law would think or has thought an activist protection of a right or policy they like as a policy matter was the wrong decision on the law.

Even a hypothetical will do.[/quote]

Thunderbolt, I don’t have too much more time to discuss this. I have lots of things to do before I leave for Italy next week. I’ll just say this: I genuinely think that many of the things conservative Justices feel have a constitutional dimension do not. And to the extent they do (such as campaign finance arguably), limitations do not infringe on the First Amendment. I think it would be a grave mistake to go down this path and constitutionalize these issues. If you want to take an originalist perspective, limitations on financial contributions were not at all what the founders envisioned when drafting the first amendment. From a commonsense perspective, I really do not think any voices are silenced by campaign limitations when people and corporations may still give plenty of money and can hold any rallies, andy political dinners, and make any speeches in favor of any candidate.

I do support more of a free market system and more deregulation, but Scalia has indicated a willingness to constitutionalize these issues that I feel is misplaced. If I have time and can find it, I will try and find some of his publications on the matter.

As far as recent examples of judicial activism, I think this cuts both ways. I certainly think the Warren court created law out of little more than air and constitutionalized things that had no constitutional dimension. The privacy rights are the most egregious example. Even where I agree normatively, I see little basis for grounding these rights in the constitution. They should be determined by state or federal law. But I struggle to think of any appreciable judicial activism on the part of liberals like this much past the 60s. That was a long time ago. As far as the gay marriage issue, I don’t think this is pulling rights out of the air at all. It follow pretty naturally from the 14th amendment and existing jurisprudence. I DON’T necessarily think legal benefits are constitutionally mandated. BUT, the court has determined that marriage is a fundamental right under the 14th amendment. Unanimously, I believe. So, if same-sex couples can be denied these benefits it’s either because marriage should not be defined to include them definitionally or because the strict scrutiny test is met. Meaning that denying them benefits serves a compelling government interest and is the least restrictive means of achieving that interest. This is the proper analysis.

last election I didn’t care for either candidate, this election I like them both a lot. Both will make positive changes. McCain is a good man and so is Obama. It does scare me that McCain is sold old and Palin is so inexperienced.

I guess if we can get passed Rev Wright, we can get passed Palin’s daughter being knocked up.

_ Adam

This is funny.

Bill Maher said it the other night and it’s true- the whole GOP platform is built on “Terrorism is DANGEROUS and SCARY and you need US to protect you from the lethal killing machines that want your children!”

But if John McCain dies the stewardess is President.

Ridiculous.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

While I would be entirely amenable to revoking Supreme Court Justices for gross incompetence as well as misconduct (which is permissible under impeachment), it should be very difficult to do.

Lifetime appointments are by design. As discussion on this thread shows, decisions are already (perhaps inevitably) influenced by the Justices own politics and conceptions of morality. It is purposeful that justices cannot be removed because their decisions are politically unpopular when they very well may be legally correct.

Federal courts get it wrong. Justices are influenced by their own political views. But you just need to look to state courts where judges campaign and are elected to see decisions made based on politics and not law. Regularly. And, there, stare decisis is often a foreign concept and precedent is fleeting.[/quote]

I don’t necessarily have a problem with a president picking justices. I guess I have more of a problem with the lifetime appointment concept. Otherwise, if we have a really bad justice then we are just stuck with them until they either die or retire.

[quote]phil_leotardo wrote:
jsbrook wrote:

While I would be entirely amenable to revoking Supreme Court Justices for gross incompetence as well as misconduct (which is permissible under impeachment), it should be very difficult to do.

Lifetime appointments are by design. As discussion on this thread shows, decisions are already (perhaps inevitably) influenced by the Justices own politics and conceptions of morality. It is purposeful that justices cannot be removed because their decisions are politically unpopular when they very well may be legally correct.

Federal courts get it wrong. Justices are influenced by their own political views. But you just need to look to state courts where judges campaign and are elected to see decisions made based on politics and not law. Regularly. And, there, stare decisis is often a foreign concept and precedent is fleeting.

I don’t necessarily have a problem with a president picking justices. I guess I have more of a problem with the lifetime appointment concept. Otherwise, if we have a really bad justice then we are just stuck with them until they either die or retire.
[/quote]

How do you define a really bad justice though? Like I said, I would support removal for gross incompetence. Not much short of that. But who’s going to do the judging for this? What should be the criteria? Supreme court justices can currently be impeached for judicial misconduct.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
So Obama is to young and inexperienced, but shes fine to be a thrice cancer surviving 70 year old heart beat away from the very same position?

Bullshit.

It was a bad choice. You can’t even judge if she’s a “real” Republican because she has so little experience. At least Obama’s ideals can be clearly seen through his speeches and books (as flimsy and socialist as those ideals are, they are still there).

And, consequently, McCain has TOTALLY RUINED his main route of attack against Obama: experience. Now that Obama has an experienced Senator at his back, and McCain has taken a COMPLETELY fresh face at his, the experience argument is totally moot point.

I can think of five or six people I would have rather he picked, and hundreds that would have been better for his ticket’s elect-ability.[/quote]

You obviously don’t care enough to do a little research. The experience argument is ridiculous. What is most important experience to have? How about executive experience. How about leadership experienc? She was mayor and then governer, meaning that she has had ultimate responsibility for running a government. She fought coruption and took on leaders in here own party while Barry was voting “present”. Which do you thinks shows more leadership?

Foreign policy = weak for Palin and Barry. Only difference is that Barry is at the top of the ticket and Palin is not.

Palin is a tough reformer. Barry is a weak-kneed party puppet. Please educate me on why he is not and what he has done to buck his own party. If people truley want change that matters they need look no further than McCain and Palin. They both have the record to prove it. Barry has nothing.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If Obama had been white, then he wouldn’t even be in the race. Hillary and Barack are very similar in political philosophy, so the vote would have been closer to a split. His race saved him.

I’m still in shock that McCain (McCain for crissakes!!!) actually picked a real old-fashioned Republican…God, family, honesty, integrity, the can-do spirit,…all the wonderful attributes that I embrace and aspire to.

When I saw her attributes (and yeah, she’s hot) and heard her speak, researched her record and philosophy, I must admit I was thrilled and flabbergasted. McCain…of all the people…[/quote]

Good. So when McCain dies, and he will because he is just to damn old and out of shape, she will be running the country.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
If Obama had been white, then he wouldn’t even be in the race. Hillary and Barack are very similar in political philosophy, so the vote would have been closer to a split. His race saved him.

I’m still in shock that McCain (McCain for crissakes!!!) actually picked a real old-fashioned Republican…God, family, honesty, integrity, the can-do spirit,…all the wonderful attributes that I embrace and aspire to.

When I saw her attributes (and yeah, she’s hot) and heard her speak, researched her record and philosophy, I must admit I was thrilled and flabbergasted. McCain…of all the people…

Good. So when McCain dies, and he will because he is just to damn old and out of shape, she will be running the country.
[/quote]

Yes, that’ll be great. She’ll walk up and down the aisles asking the House of Representatives if they want a hot towel or a fresh drink, and Nancy Pelosi will be king shit of fuck mountain.

If I was a conservative, I’d be scared. Poor bastards.

personally, I feel it is very comforting knowing that a potential VP supports Alaska seceding from the union.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
If I was a conservative, I’d be scared. Poor bastards.[/quote]

You sound more like a scared Democrat. I would be too.

You compare Palin to a stewardess, but she has 2 years more experience actually running shit than your top guy has. What doe that make Barry? The luggage handler?

Give me McCain with her on deck. It’ll be a fuck load better than having Opie Obama anywhere near the oval office.

You know what’s going to suck for you guys? If McCain wins, Palin will be President in 2012 regardless if McCain dies, or not.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Yes, that’ll be great. She’ll walk up and down the aisles asking the House of Representatives if they want a hot towel or a fresh drink, and Nancy Pelosi will be king shit of fuck mountain.

If I was a conservative, I’d be scared. Poor bastards.[/quote]

Irish, I get that you are a proud woman-insulter, but doesn’t it defeat the purpose for you to bash a female vice-presidential candidate when she’s actually more manly than your presidential candidate?

Palin hunts moose. Obama Tivos “The View”.

If I were you - with the most effete candidate in a generation as the Democratic nominee - I’d keep the sexist guns in their holsters.

Oh c’mon, on calling Obama “effete,” I have a hard time figuring who’s more manly: Triple H, Arnold, General Petraeus, or Obama. Seems too close a call.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

Yes, that’ll be great. She’ll walk up and down the aisles asking the House of Representatives if they want a hot towel or a fresh drink, and Nancy Pelosi will be king shit of fuck mountain.

If I was a conservative, I’d be scared. Poor bastards.

Irish, I get that you are a proud woman-insulter, but doesn’t it defeat the purpose for you to bash a female vice-presidential candidate when she’s actually more manly than your presidential candidate?

Palin hunts moose. Obama Tivos “The View”.

If I were you - with the most effete candidate in a generation as the Democratic nominee - I’d keep the sexist guns in their holsters.

[/quote]

There’s a word for women in NJ who hunt moose. Normally they play softball and are firefighters too. We call them, “bull dykes.” No thanks.

It should surprise no one that I like Nancy Pelosi, so I wouldn’t really mind said scenario. Not that she’s that she’s good looking, or not a dyke, but at least she’s a Democratic woman, and not Hillary Clinton.

And besides, having our manly man President who builds fences and weightlifts has put us in quite a quandry in the world. If that’s what we get for having a President who puts off the image of “manliness” (even though he never did a day of hard labor in his life), then you fellas can have that too.

I ain’t voting for who I want to get drunk with, I’m voting for President. And I’ll take an educated Obama who watches The View over anyone out there right now.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

You compare Palin to a stewardess, but she has 2 years more experience actually running shit than your top guy has.
[/quote]

Running Alaska. All 600,000 of them, and that counts polar bears and yetties.

And she’s been governor for 2 fuckin years.

Obama’s been in the senate since 2004. That’s four years.

Aren’t you an accountant amigo?