Judging Yourself and Sarah Palin

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
phil_leotardo wrote:
So in other words, you think that life-time appointees that we never even directly vote for having lots of control over our lives is a good thing?

On that, I do think that pretty-much-irrevocable lifetime appointments do not make sense.

While it shouldn’t be routine and ordinary for a body that made an appointment to later consider revoking it, and should not be easy – it would also be bad for judges to have to expect to be second-guessed by legislators or Presidents on whether each and every they decision they make is or is not popular enough with the public or is or is not to their personal liking – it should be possible when the appointing body has “had it” and if the process is difficult enough.

For example, I think it would be reasonable that if both the current President of the United States wishes and at 2/3 of the US Senate votes to have a Supreme Court justice removed, their ass should be out of there.
[/quote]

I would not have a problem this. If that much of the Senate voted for removal, it wouldn’t be a purely political decision.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

I will say that the more law you study, the more you see that justices of the right as well as the left are often activist too. Maybe not to the same degree. But they are. [/quote]

Then enlighten us - point me to a recent “right wing” decision that created a public policy favored by the right that was a departure from the Constitution.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
jsbrook wrote:

I will say that the more law you study, the more you see that justices of the right as well as the left are often activist too. Maybe not to the same degree. But they are.

Then enlighten us - point me to a recent “right wing” decision that created a public policy favored by the right that was a departure from the Constitution.

[/quote]

There aren’t many recent decisions. Right wing judicial activists haven’t held the power for some time. HISTORY is replete with right wing judicial activism. I’ll give you several examples.

Right to the eve of the Civil War, for instance, the Supreme Court asserted the primacy of property rights in slaves, rejecting all slave petitions for freedom. In the famous Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857), the Court concluded that, be they slave or free, Blacks were a “subordinate and inferior class of beings” without constitutional rights.

Thus did reactionary judicial activists�??many of them slaveholders�??spin racist precepts out of thin air to lend a constitutional gloss to their beloved slavocracy.

When the federal government wanted to establish national banks, or give away half the country to speculators, or subsidize industries, or set up commissions that fixed prices and interest rates for large manufacturers and banks, or imprison dissenters who denounced war and capitalism, or use the U.S. Army to shoot workers and break strikes, or have Marines kill people in Central America�??the Supreme Court’s conservative activists twisted the Constitution in every conceivable way to justify these acts. So much for “strict construction.”

But when the federal or state governments sought to limit workday hours, set minimum wage or occupational safety standards, ensure the safety of consumer products, or guarantee the right of collective bargaining, then the Court ruled that ours was a limited form of government that could not tamper with property rights and could not deprive owner and worker of “freedom of contract.” The famous Lochner case. Universally condemned as innapropriate judicial activism and fanciciful construction of law by those of all political persuassions today.

The Fourteenth Amendment, adopted in 1868 ostensibly to establish full citizenship for African Americans, says that no state can “deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law,” nor deny any person “equal protection of the laws.”

In another act of pure judicial invention, a conservative dominated Court decided that “person” really meant “corporation”; therefore the Fourteenth Amendment protected business conglomerates from regulation by the states.

By 1920, pro-business federal courts had struck down roughly three hundred labor laws passed by state legislatures to ease inhumane working conditions, claiming them to be unconstiutional. Decisions that are universally derided today.

Between 1880 and 1931 the courts issued more than 1,800 injunctions to suppress labor strikes. No trace of conservative restraint during those many years. Years when they had power.

When Congress outlawed child labor or passed other social reforms, conservative jurists declared such laws to be violations of the Tenth Amendment. The Tenth Amendment says that powers not delegated to the federal government are reserved to the states or the people. So Congress could not act. When states passed social-welfare legislation, the Court’s right-wing activists said such laws violated “substantive due process” (a totally fabricated oxymoron) under the Fourteenth Amendment as assuredly as many of the so-called ‘privacy rights’ created by liberal activits. So the state legislatures could not act.

**For more than fifty years, conservative justices used the Tenth Amendment to stop federal reforms initiated under the Fourteenth Amendment, and the Fourteenth to stymie state reforms initiated under the Tenth. It’s hard to get more brazenly activist than that.

A conservative Supreme Court produced Plessy v. Ferguson (1896), another inventive reading of the Fourteenth Amendment’s equal protection clause. Plessy confected the “separate but equal” doctrine, claiming that the forced separation of Blacks from Whites did not impute inferiority as long as facilities were equal (which they rarely were). For some seventy years, this judicial fabrication buttressed racial segregation.

Convinced that they too were persons, women began to argue that the “due process” clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment (applying to state governments) and the Fifth Amendment (applying to the federal government) disallowed the voting prohibitions imposed on women by state and federal authorities.

But in Minor v. Happersett (1875), the conservative Court fashioned another bizarrely contorted interpretation. They conceded that women were citizens but then claimed citizenship did not necessarily confer a citizen’s right to suffrage. In other words, “due process,” and “equal protection” applied to such “persons” as business corporations but not to women or people of African descent.

The concept of executive privilege was judicially constructed. Maybe a good one and necessary one to some degree. But the consitutional base is very tenuous indeed. And it’s certainly been abused. Executive privilege has been used by the White House to withhold information on undeclared wars, illegal campaign funds, Supreme Court nominations, burglaries (Watergate), insider trading (by Bush and Cheney), and White House collusion with corporate lobbyists.

The concept of executive privilege (i.e. unaccountable executive secrecy) exists nowhere in the Constitution or any law. Yet right-wing activists on the Supreme Court trumpet executive privilege, deciding out of thin air that a “presumptive privilege” for withholding information belongs to the president.

I would argue Bush v. Gore is a modern example of right-wing judicial activism. In a 5-to-4 decision, the conservatives overruled the Florida Supreme Court’s order for a recount in the 2000 presidential election. The justices argued with breathtaking contrivance that since different Florida counties might use different modes of tabulating ballots, a hand recount would violate the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Please try and justify this one to me.

In recent years, conservative justices have held that the Fourteenth Amendment’s equal protection clause could not be used to stop violence against women, or provide a more equitable mode of property taxes, or a more equitable distribution of funds between rich and poor school districts. But, in Bush v. Gore they ruled that the equal protection clause could be used to stop a perfectly legal ballot recount. Then they explicitly declared that the Bush case could not be considered a precedent for OTHER equal protection issues.

We hear conservatives say that judges should not try to “legislate from the bench,” the way liberal jurists supposedly do. But a recent study by Paul Gewirtz and Chad Golder of Yale University reveals that conservative justices like Thomas and Scalia have a far higher rate of invalidating or reinterpreting Congressional laws than more liberal justices like Breyer and Ginsberg.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

We hear conservatives say that judges should not try to “legislate from the bench,” the way liberal jurists supposedly do. But a recent study by Paul Gewirtz and Chad Golder of Yale University reveals that conservative justices like Thomas and Scalia have a far higher rate of invalidating or reinterpreting Congressional laws than more liberal justices like Breyer and Ginsberg.

[/quote]

The role of the court is to oversee congress. The fact that the court invalidates congressional law means it is doing its job.

Now, aside from 100 year-old decisions which have all been overturned, and fixed - can you at least get into the latter half of the 20th century to do your research?

And maybe stop throwing a smoke screen up trying to pass off congressional law as constitutional?

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

[text][/quote]

Whoever wrote this - it doesn’t appear that it was you, but you offer no link - makes a good case: but we aren’t worried about that history in the context of the discussion here. The history is interesting, and in many ways I agree - although, the author is a little blinkered, as many conservatives railed against Dred Scott, and is reductionist on certain issues like Plessy, as there was a difficult circle to square, since segregation was considered standard practice after the creation of the Reconstruction Amendments - but that doesn’t help us much now.

Reason being, it is incorrect to say that “the Right” engages in judicial activism in the same way “the Left” does nowadays - it simply isn’t true.

After all, the author offers up that “substantive due process” - the monstrosity created in Dred Scott and furthered in Lochner - is a bad thing, and yet, the only place “substantive due process” exists anymore is in liberal jurisprudence. As for conservatives, “substantive due process” has been discredited.

Conservatives have moved on from it, and yet liberals are reviviing it and extending it.

The history is interesting - but it doesn’t inform us much on who the better presidential choice is w/r/t the judiciary. There are apparently three kinds of judges (roughly): liberal activists, conservative activists, and neutral umpires.

I think the idea that there are many conservative activists a myth, but the point is that there must exist some judges (or potential judges) that can be Politically Neutral Umpires. Obama has flatly stated he has no interest in such judges - I have no idea if McCain will appoint “perfect” judges, but at least with McCain we get a chance to have them.

I have no doubt than Obama would be interested in judges that discover gay marriage rights and a living wage under the Equal Protection clause, among other idiocy.

Learning where the mistakes were in history is useful - our problem is Obama’s judges won’t have learned that lesson.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

The role of the court is to oversee congress. The fact that the court invalidates congressional law means it is doing its job.[/quote]

Agreed - the Left has tried to co-opt the definition of “judicial activism” to mean “overturning democratically-elected laws” regardless of how those laws stack up against superior law.

It is erroneous, and a foolish standard to measure “conservative judges”.

I would say that in the 1960s and 1970s, principled conservatives were truly committed to a restrained and cautious federal judiciary. Main targets included Roe v. Wade and Miranda v. Arizona, which they saw as unsupportable judicial interference with political decisions. They wanted courts to back off.

No more. Today, he goal has increasingly been to promote “movement judges”–judges with no interest in judicial restraint and with real eagerness to strike down the acts of Congress and state governments. Rightly or wrongly, today’s Republican leaders have a pretty clear to agenda for the nation’s courts. They want to reduce the powers of the federal government, to scale back the rights of those accused of crime, strike down affirmative-action programs and campaign-finance laws, diminish privacy rights including the right to abortion, and to protect commercial interests from government regulation.

*And they seek judicial candidates who would interpret the Constitution and other federal statutes in a way that would promote this agenda.

Scalia and Thomas suggest that they would strike down almost ALL legislation limiting campaign contributions and expenditures. The rationale is that it is an undue restriction on free speech. Pretty far-fetched rationale if you ask me.

The Rehnquist Court, departing from its own precedents, has sharply limited congressional authority to enforce the 14th Amendment. In the process, the Court has struck down key provisions of the Americans With Disabilities Act, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act and the Violence Against Women Act, all of which received overwhelming bipartisan support in Congress. Whether you support the outcome or not, there has been a concerted to overturn initiatives of elected reps that received significant bipartisian support on pretty tenuous constitutional grounds.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

I would argue Bush v. Gore is a modern example of right-wing judicial activism. In a 5-to-4 decision, the conservatives overruled the Florida Supreme Court’s order for a recount in the 2000 presidential election. The justices argued with breathtaking contrivance that since different Florida counties might use different modes of tabulating ballots, a hand recount would violate the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Please try and justify this one to me.[/quote]

Reading the decision at the time should have explained it. Actually that was a very interesting and educational thing, reading the briefs and the decision at the time. The lawyers of both campaigns earned absolute top points for well-written, well-presented argument and did it with extreme speed.

But if not familiar with the situation, neither the Gore campaign nor the Florida Supreme Court was looking for an equal recount. They wanted only selective recount: only those counties where it could be predicted that Gore would likely gain votes if ballots that previously were found unreadable were now “found” readable. They wanted and were going to have no recount in those counties, which also existed, where any increase in counting of previously-unreadable ballots would likely net Bush an increase in votes.

Obviously this did not equally protect the franchise of all Florida citizens. It was targeted, for political purposes, to give special counting consideration – accepting spoiled ballots that were not being accepted elsewhere and were not acceptable under voting rules in place at the time of the election – to select voters only, only those voters likely to have voted for Gore.

Additionally, the Florida Supreme Court ruling would result in failing to meet already-required-by-law deadlines.

The activism and legislation-from-the-bench was from the Florida Supreme Court.

While not brought up by the US Supreme Court, another quite legit issue is that it’s inherently fraudulent, in any sort of measurement, to have in place beforehand rules for determining outcome, and then to demand – because the outcome wasn’t as desired – that method after different arbitrary method must now be tried till the desired outcome is achieved, at which point of course, then everyone has to stop.

It’s called “dishonesty.”

The actions of the Palm Beach County board were also dishonest. Deciding, for example, that a ballot which was not punched for Gore, did not have a single perforation for Gore, but had a very light impression of the cutting device, “must” have been “intended” for Gore and should count for Gore on account of the ballot having been punched Democratic for every other office, is dishonest and fraudulent, when rules were in place beforehand that that does not consitute a countable vote and it’s obvious that a person might start to place the punching device, then decide that he just cannot pull the level for Gore. I’ve had friends who routinely vote for all local offices but usually do not vote for President: it happens. Pretense by Palm Beach County that such ballots “must” have been for Gore was fraud.

Get over it: Gore lost by three straight counts by the rules both then in place and then put specially in place to try to help him, the only thing he was denied was a FOURTH count which he was in no way entitled to. He also lost by counts done by independent groups afterwards. This was even despite the fact that tens of thousands of voters in heavily-Bush Panhandle areas left the voting lines after being fraudulently told by the media that Gore had already won Florida.

And let’s say, though it wouldn’t have happened with any method applied equally across Florida (but Gore was not wanting that to be done) that a fourth count was done across Florida and by that count, Gore won by a small number of votes. Would the Democrat position have been, and would your position have been, that well, now Bush is entitled to a fifth count under yet different methods, especially since overall there were 3 counts finding him the winner and only one finding Gore the winner? Oh no. The Democrat principle was, keep counting, using different methods if necessary to the goal, till the Democrat wins and then stop. This is dishonest.

Gore lost fair and square. Democrat judges tried to override existing law and get a result different from how the state actually voted but ultimately failed, so sad. Face facts.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
jsbrook wrote:

We hear conservatives say that judges should not try to “legislate from the bench,” the way liberal jurists supposedly do. But a recent study by Paul Gewirtz and Chad Golder of Yale University reveals that conservative justices like Thomas and Scalia have a far higher rate of invalidating or reinterpreting Congressional laws than more liberal justices like Breyer and Ginsberg.

The role of the court is to oversee congress. The fact that the court invalidates congressional law means it is doing its job.

Now, aside from 100 year-old decisions which have all been overturned, and fixed - can you at least get into the latter half of the 20th century to do your research?

And maybe stop throwing a smoke screen up trying to pass off congressional law as constitutional? [/quote]

Where is your distinction? Let’s take campaign finance. In a pretty big leap, conservatives want to abolish all limits on campaign expenditures. The argument. Money, any amount, is tanamount to speech. And any limitiation is unconsitutional infrignment. The constitutional basis for this pronouncement. Almost none. I see little diffference between this equation and the ‘penumbra of privacy’ liberal justices determined that the Constitution ensures. They are both striking laws on constitutional grounds with little constitutional basis via mental gymnastics to turn non-constitutional issues into constitutional ones.

I also don’t see how you ask me to find successful examples of judicial activism in the last half of the 20th century. The Warren court took power in 1953. Conservatives have not dominated the court since. Nonetheless, certain recent decisions such as Bush v. Gore and other decisions dealing with the 14th amendment support a conservative agenda and depart from any reasonable constitutional interpretation.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
jsbrook wrote:

I would argue Bush v. Gore is a modern example of right-wing judicial activism. In a 5-to-4 decision, the conservatives overruled the Florida Supreme Court’s order for a recount in the 2000 presidential election. The justices argued with breathtaking contrivance that since different Florida counties might use different modes of tabulating ballots, a hand recount would violate the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Please try and justify this one to me.

Reading the briefs and the decision at the time should have explained it.

But if not familiar with the situation, neither the Gore campaign nor the Florida Supreme Court was looking for an equal recount. They wanted only selective recount: only those counties where it could be predicted that Gore would likely gain votes if ballots that previously were found unreadable were now “found” readable. They wanted and were going to have no recount in those counties, which also existed, where any increase in counting of previously-unreadable ballots would likely net Bush an increase in votes.

Obviously this did not equally protect the franchise of all Florida citizens. It was targeted, for political purposes, to give special counting consideration – accepting spoiled ballots that were not being accepted elsewhere and were not acceptable under voting rules in place at the time of the election – to select voters only, only those voters likely to have voted for Gore.

Additionally, the Florida Supreme Court ruling would result in failing to meet already-required-by-law deadlines.

The activism and legislation-from-the-bench was from the Florida Supreme Court.

While not brought up by the US Supreme Court, another quite legit issue is that it’s inherently fraudulent, in any sort of measurement, to have in place beforehand rules for determining outcome, and then to demand – because the outcome wasn’t as desired – that method after different arbitrary method must now be tried till the desired outcome is achieved, at which point of course, then everyone has to stop.

It’s called “dishonesty.”

The actions of the Palm Beach County board were also dishonest. Deciding, for example, that a ballot which was not punched for Gore, did not have a single perforation for Gore, but had a very light impression of the cutting device, “must” have been “intended” for Gore and should count for Gore on account of the ballot having been punched Democratic for every other office, is dishonest and fraudulent, when rules were in place beforehand that that does not consitute a countable vote and it’s obvious that a person might start to place the punching device, then decide that he just cannot pull the level for Gore. I’ve had friends who routinely vote for all local offices but usually do not vote for President: it happens. Pretense by Palm Beach County that such ballots “must” have been for Gore was fraud.

Get over it: Gore lost by three straight counts by the rules both then in place and then put specially in place to try to help him, the only thing he was denied was a FOURTH count which he was in no way entitled to. He also lost by counts done by independent groups afterwards. This was even despite the fact that tens of thousands of voters in heavily-Bush Panhandle areas left the voting lines after being fraudulently told by the media that Gore had already won Florida.

And let’s say, though it wouldn’t have happened with any method applied equally across Florida (but Gore was not wanting that to be done) that a fourth count was done across Florida and by that count, Gore won by a small number of votes. Would the Democrat position have been, and would your position have been, that well, now Bush is entitled to a fifth count under yet different methods, especially since overall there were 3 counts finding him the winner and only one finding Gore the winner? Oh no. The Democrat principle was, keep counting, using different methods if necessary to the goal, till the Democrat wins and then stop. This is dishonest.

Gore lost fair and square. Democrat judges tried to override existing law and get a result different from how the state actually voted but ultimately failed, so sad. Face facts.

[/quote]

I did not want Gore to win. I still think it a strained and poor decision.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
rainjack wrote:

The role of the court is to oversee congress. The fact that the court invalidates congressional law means it is doing its job.

Agreed - the Left has tried to co-opt the definition of “judicial activism” to mean “overturning democratically-elected laws” regardless of how those laws stack up against superior law.

It is erroneous, and a foolish standard to measure “conservative judges”.

[/quote]

What is your definition of judicial activism? Is it not inventing a constiutional basis to overturn democratically elected laws that have no real relationship to the the constitution nor violate constitutional principles?

Oops, I missed seeing that the question was not to me before writing, but might as well keep it anyway:

Myself, I define it as claiming that laws “really” mean different than what they in fact say and different than what any research will show was intended by the legislators who passed the law. That is judicial “activism” by my definition.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
jsbrook wrote:

[text]

Whoever wrote this - it doesn’t appear that it was you, but you offer no link - makes a good case: but we aren’t worried about that history in the context of the discussion here. The history is interesting, and in many ways I agree - although, the author is a little blinkered, as many conservatives railed against Dred Scott, and is reductionist on certain issues like Plessy, as there was a difficult circle to square, since segregation was considered standard practice after the creation of the Reconstruction Amendments - but that doesn’t help us much now.

Reason being, it is incorrect to say that “the Right” engages in judicial activism in the same way “the Left” does nowadays - it simply isn’t true.

After all, the author offers up that “substantive due process” - the monstrosity created in Dred Scott and furthered in Lochner - is a bad thing, and yet, the only place “substantive due process” exists anymore is in liberal jurisprudence. As for conservatives, “substantive due process” has been discredited.

Conservatives have moved on from it, and yet liberals are reviviing it and extending it.

The history is interesting - but it doesn’t inform us much on who the better presidential choice is w/r/t the judiciary. There are apparently three kinds of judges (roughly): liberal activists, conservative activists, and neutral umpires.

I think the idea that there are many conservative activists a myth, but the point is that there must exist some judges (or potential judges) that can be Politically Neutral Umpires. Obama has flatly stated he has no interest in such judges - I have no idea if McCain will appoint “perfect” judges, but at least with McCain we get a chance to have them.

I have no doubt than Obama would be interested in judges that discover gay marriage rights and a living wage under the Equal Protection clause, among other idiocy.

Learning where the mistakes were in history is useful - our problem is Obama’s judges won’t have learned that lesson.[/quote]

This is actually an amalgamation of several sources with my own views sprinkled in. No single source. It would be nice, but I have yet to see a judge or suggested judicial appointee to the Supreme Court in recent years who is a Politically Netural Umpire. O’Connor is the closest. You look at her concurrences and you find that the rationale is truly rooted in textualism and original interpretation. Even she is not perfect. Much moreso than Scalia. Much more so than the liberals.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

I did not want Gore to win. I still think it a strained and poor decision.[/quote]

So why should only select favorable-to-Gore counties have been re-re-recounted, as the Florida Supreme Court ruled, and why should something have been started (a re-re-recount) that would have resulted in failing to meet an already-legislated deadline?

There was nothing “strained” about that at all.

Gore lost the regular count, the automatic recount, and the specially-designed-for him for re-recount. I just don’t get why ANYONE would argue – other than under the principle that counting should continue till the desired candidate wins and then stop – that he should have gotten a re-re-recount, especially not under contrived conditions aimed to specifically aid his vote count but not get more complete counting in any county that tended to vote for the other candidate.

You wanted an explanation of why the Supreme Court was right and I provided one: can you provide an explanation of why the above, demanded by the Florida Supreme Court, would be right?

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Oops, I missed seeing that the question was not to me before writing, but might as well keep it anyway:

Myself, I define it as claiming that laws “really” mean different than what they in fact say and different than what any research will show was intended by the legislators who passed the law. That is judicial “activism” by my definition.[/quote]

I think that’s part of it. But in my mind, that’s not the most fatal flaws and the worst judicial activism. This occurs when justices of all persuassions on the Supreme overturn laws on constitutional grounds when they have no legitimate constitutional dimensions and raise no real constitutional issues. Liberals do it. Conservatives do it. Certainly historically. They know what they’re doing. They do it because they have agendas and views. They know what they think is right.

And they know that when they overturn a law on constiutional grounds, whether there is any real basis, it holds absent constitutional amendment or a subsequent Supreme Court decisions. I agree with aspects of the conservative agenda. But it’s not ok to pretend it has a constitutional dimension when it does not. And rule on constitutional grounds in a way that makes decisions irrevocable, whatever the public or Congress comes to think.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Where is your distinction? Let’s take campaign finance. In a pretty big leap, conservatives want to abolish all limits on campaign expenditures. The argument. Money, any amount, is tanamount to speech. And any limitiation is unconsitutional infrignment. The constitutional basis for this pronouncement. Almost none. I see little diffference between this equation than the penumbra of privacy liberal justices found the constitutional amendments secure. They are both striking laws on constitutional grounds via little constiutional basis and mental gymnastics to turn non-constitutional issues into constitutional ones.[/quote]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

If the argument can be made that my giving my own money to the candidate of my choice is tantamount to my verbal support of said candidate, then it is an extension of my first amendment right.

I would rather have the first amendment interpreted too broadly than have it narrowed down.

Then I guess your entire argument is kinda tied to courts that are not even relevant to the discussion. Hell, they most of them aren’t even within the last 100 years.

Read up on Mr. Roberts’ take on Bush v. Gore. He cvers it pretty good.

What other 14th amendment cases are supported by unreasonable interpretations by only 4 conservative judges?

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

Nonetheless, certain recent decisions such as Bush v. Gore and other decisions dealing with the 14th amendment support a conservative agenda and depart from any reasonable constitutional interpretation.[/quote]

Be serious.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
jsbrook wrote:

I would argue Bush v. Gore is a modern example of right-wing judicial activism. In a 5-to-4 decision, the conservatives overruled the Florida Supreme Court’s order for a recount in the 2000 presidential election. The justices argued with breathtaking contrivance that since different Florida counties might use different modes of tabulating ballots, a hand recount would violate the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Please try and justify this one to me.

Reading the decision at the time should have explained it. Actually that was a very interesting and educational thing, reading the briefs and the decision at the time. The lawyers of both campaigns earned absolute top points for well-written, well-presented argument and did it with extreme speed.

But if not familiar with the situation, neither the Gore campaign nor the Florida Supreme Court was looking for an equal recount. They wanted only selective recount: only those counties where it could be predicted that Gore would likely gain votes if ballots that previously were found unreadable were now “found” readable. They wanted and were going to have no recount in those counties, which also existed, where any increase in counting of previously-unreadable ballots would likely net Bush an increase in votes.

Obviously this did not equally protect the franchise of all Florida citizens. It was targeted, for political purposes, to give special counting consideration – accepting spoiled ballots that were not being accepted elsewhere and were not acceptable under voting rules in place at the time of the election – to select voters only, only those voters likely to have voted for Gore.

Additionally, the Florida Supreme Court ruling would result in failing to meet already-required-by-law deadlines.

The activism and legislation-from-the-bench was from the Florida Supreme Court.

While not brought up by the US Supreme Court, another quite legit issue is that it’s inherently fraudulent, in any sort of measurement, to have in place beforehand rules for determining outcome, and then to demand – because the outcome wasn’t as desired – that method after different arbitrary method must now be tried till the desired outcome is achieved, at which point of course, then everyone has to stop.

It’s called “dishonesty.”

The actions of the Palm Beach County board were also dishonest. Deciding, for example, that a ballot which was not punched for Gore, did not have a single perforation for Gore, but had a very light impression of the cutting device, “must” have been “intended” for Gore and should count for Gore on account of the ballot having been punched Democratic for every other office, is dishonest and fraudulent, when rules were in place beforehand that that does not consitute a countable vote and it’s obvious that a person might start to place the punching device, then decide that he just cannot pull the level for Gore. I’ve had friends who routinely vote for all local offices but usually do not vote for President: it happens. Pretense by Palm Beach County that such ballots “must” have been for Gore was fraud.

Get over it: Gore lost by three straight counts by the rules both then in place and then put specially in place to try to help him, the only thing he was denied was a FOURTH count which he was in no way entitled to. He also lost by counts done by independent groups afterwards. This was even despite the fact that tens of thousands of voters in heavily-Bush Panhandle areas left the voting lines after being fraudulently told by the media that Gore had already won Florida.

And let’s say, though it wouldn’t have happened with any method applied equally across Florida (but Gore was not wanting that to be done) that a fourth count was done across Florida and by that count, Gore won by a small number of votes. Would the Democrat position have been, and would your position have been, that well, now Bush is entitled to a fifth count under yet different methods, especially since overall there were 3 counts finding him the winner and only one finding Gore the winner? Oh no. The Democrat principle was, keep counting, using different methods if necessary to the goal, till the Democrat wins and then stop. This is dishonest.

Gore lost fair and square. Democrat judges tried to override existing law and get a result different from how the state actually voted but ultimately failed, so sad. Face facts.

[/quote]

There was no good solution in this case. The court determined the equal protection right of a presidential candidate to have universal standards trumped the rights or Florida citizens to have their votes counted. It is not a judgment the court should have made in the first place. In my view, this was a nonjusticiable, political question that the court should not have decided. It should have dismissed this case. The dispute should have properly been resolved by Congress.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

No more. Today, he goal has increasingly been to promote “movement judges”–judges with no interest in judicial restraint and with real eagerness to strike down the acts of Congress and state governments. Rightly or wrongly, today’s Republican leaders have a pretty clear to agenda for the nation’s courts. They want to reduce the powers of the federal government, to scale back the rights of those accused of crime, strike down affirmative-action programs and campaign-finance laws, diminish privacy rights including the right to abortion, and to protect commercial interests from government regulation.[/quote]

But this is merely a plaint that judges are looking at reversing a wish list of policy you like.

Reduce the size of federal government? Well, the federal government was always supposed to be one of limited powers and scope - if a court begins to re-recognize those boundaries, that is a fidelity to the Constitution, not a departure from it.

Affirmative action laws? Inconsistent with the very point of the Reconstruction Amendments.

Abortion? Nothing novel to note that both liberals and conservatives believe “it isn’t constitutional law and it doesn’t even pretend to be”.

A blind adherence to decisions of the past would have never gotten us past Dred Scott or Plessy - if a court corrects a bad decision (and there are many as a result of “progressive” judges from the 60s), that isn’t anything we should be upset with.

Correct - and rightly so.

Well, reasonable people disagree, but this weird notion that the rationale is “far fetched” suggests to me you haven’t considered the issue very much.

But the 14th Amendment was never a blanket prescription for Congress to be able to pass general laws outside of its constitutional constraints - it was no such grant of power.

The Violence Against Women Act case was instructive - what general police power does Congress or has Congress ever had to enact such a statute? None - and Congress was merely aggrandizing to itself a new police power (no matter how well-intentioned) unheard of in the Constitution.

Your evaluation of whether the judiciary is overstepping its boundaries or not seems entirely based on whether they attack “stuff you like”. It seems that if they went pretty far out of the way of the Constitution and determined gay marriage was compelled under the Equal Protection clause - which you have suggested you are sympathetic to - you wouldn’t be so worried about such judicial creativity.

You can’t have a fair evaluation of whether the judiciary is getting it “right” or “wrong” if your compass is largely driven by your public policy preferences - which appears to be the case.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
jsbrook wrote:

Nonetheless, certain recent decisions such as Bush v. Gore and other decisions dealing with the 14th amendment support a conservative agenda and depart from any reasonable constitutional interpretation.

Be serious.[/quote]

Oh, I’m serious. The decision split purely on party lines. 5 judges decided based on equal protection grounds, ignoring due process concerns. They got the president they wanted. The Supreme Court should not have decided the case at all.