Judge Rejects NSA Phone Spying

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Has freedom eroded since 9/11? Yes, but you know what? I’m sitting here typing on the internet, sipping on some Plazma, typing on my Galaxy S4, getting ready to leave work and go to my house (which I partially own) and use the personal gym I 100% own. Do you know who isn’t doing any of that? Bin Laden, who is in fact Crab shit at this point.

Terrorist have not won “In a landslide”.
[/quote]

Lol, you’re the guy going to fight when push comes to shove? You’re the one sitting here acknowledging you still have all this glitzy stuff just less freedom so no big deal. Sure you’ve got less freedom, but you’ve got fancy stuff so it ain’t all bad.

You’re like every other American. And so am I…the difference is I’m not pretending I’m somehow different like you are. And you’re convinced I wouldn’t fight. Based on your made up fairy tale of my existence and all the things you think you know about me?

[/quote]
The point, as usual, you missed it.[/quote]

The likelihood of H factor, Varq, and myself all missing the point at the same time is not particularly high. If you want to say that “ok, the terrorists didn’t win in a LANDSLIDE” then fine, go ahead. I freely grant you “not a landslide”. I’ve stated that the loss of freedom is enough reason by itself, even if Iraq didn’t cost lives and even if things had turned out exactly 100% the way we wanted in both theaters. The loss of freedom and the generation of fear and “security worries” among the voting public is the definition of loss, as Varq explains not too far above my post.
[/quote]
See my response to Varq. I’m not saying things are peachy at all. I’m say we still have enough freedom to take the rest back.

62

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Has freedom eroded since 9/11? Yes, but you know what? I’m sitting here typing on the internet, sipping on some Plazma, typing on my Galaxy S4, getting ready to leave work and go to my house (which I partially own) and use the personal gym I 100% own. Do you know who isn’t doing any of that? Bin Laden, who is in fact Crab shit at this point.

Terrorist have not won “In a landslide”.
[/quote]

Lol, you’re the guy going to fight when push comes to shove? You’re the one sitting here acknowledging you still have all this glitzy stuff just less freedom so no big deal. Sure you’ve got less freedom, but you’ve got fancy stuff so it ain’t all bad.

You’re like every other American. And so am I…the difference is I’m not pretending I’m somehow different like you are. And you’re convinced I wouldn’t fight. Based on your made up fairy tale of my existence and all the things you think you know about me?

[/quote]
The point, as usual, you missed it.[/quote]

The likelihood of H factor, Varq, and myself all missing the point at the same time is not particularly high. If you want to say that “ok, the terrorists didn’t win in a LANDSLIDE” then fine, go ahead. I freely grant you “not a landslide”. I’ve stated that the loss of freedom is enough reason by itself, even if Iraq didn’t cost lives and even if things had turned out exactly 100% the way we wanted in both theaters. The loss of freedom and the generation of fear and “security worries” among the voting public is the definition of loss, as Varq explains not too far above my post.
[/quote]
See my response to Varq. I’m not saying things are peachy at all. I’m say we still have enough freedom to take the rest back.[/quote]

And I’m saying that we do, but we do not have the WILL. Lack of Will makes the reclamation a complete impossibility. Apathy kills all things it invades.

63

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Has freedom eroded since 9/11? Yes, but you know what? I’m sitting here typing on the internet, sipping on some Plazma, typing on my Galaxy S4, getting ready to leave work and go to my house (which I partially own) and use the personal gym I 100% own. Do you know who isn’t doing any of that? Bin Laden, who is in fact Crab shit at this point.

Terrorist have not won “In a landslide”.
[/quote]

Lol, you’re the guy going to fight when push comes to shove? You’re the one sitting here acknowledging you still have all this glitzy stuff just less freedom so no big deal. Sure you’ve got less freedom, but you’ve got fancy stuff so it ain’t all bad.

You’re like every other American. And so am I…the difference is I’m not pretending I’m somehow different like you are. And you’re convinced I wouldn’t fight. Based on your made up fairy tale of my existence and all the things you think you know about me?

[/quote]
The point, as usual, you missed it.[/quote]

The likelihood of H factor, Varq, and myself all missing the point at the same time is not particularly high. If you want to say that “ok, the terrorists didn’t win in a LANDSLIDE” then fine, go ahead. I freely grant you “not a landslide”. I’ve stated that the loss of freedom is enough reason by itself, even if Iraq didn’t cost lives and even if things had turned out exactly 100% the way we wanted in both theaters. The loss of freedom and the generation of fear and “security worries” among the voting public is the definition of loss, as Varq explains not too far above my post.
[/quote]
See my response to Varq. I’m not saying things are peachy at all. I’m say we still have enough freedom to take the rest back.[/quote]

And I’m saying that we do, but we do not have the WILL. Lack of Will makes the reclamation a complete impossibility. Apathy kills all things it invades.[/quote]
Agreed, however, I disagree on how wide spread apathy truly is. There was apathy leading up to the revolution too. Americans are hard working no matter what the msm says.

64

We should be talking civil war more so than revolution anyway. Imo that is more likely. I don’t believe either are likely though.

Reconciliation.

65

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Has freedom eroded since 9/11? Yes, but you know what? I’m sitting here typing on the internet, sipping on some Plazma, typing on my Galaxy S4, getting ready to leave work and go to my house (which I partially own) and use the personal gym I 100% own. Do you know who isn’t doing any of that? Bin Laden, who is in fact Crab shit at this point.

Terrorist have not won “In a landslide”.
[/quote]

What you are saying is, “I may have lost personal liberty, but because I still have access to consumer electronics, sports suppliments, employment and housing, none of which a dead terrorist leader currently has access to, I must conclude that the terrorists have not been as successful as some people have claimed.”

This seems rather silly to me.

The financiers of the 9/11 attacks live better than you do. They have better electronics, bigger houses, and maybe even own nicer gyms. They are rolling in money, and they pay no taxes. They can do whatever they want. They are, by all metrics, freer than you. Bin Laden was…perhaps not a pawn, but at most a knight or bishop. The big pieces are still on the board, sitting back, smoking a Havana cigar and laughing at how “free” Americans still delude themselves into thinking they are.

[/quote]
No, what I’m saying is that it takes a lot of freedom to have those things available to you. Similar, but monumentally different. [/quote]

So if the metric by which you measure freedom is access to immense wealth and a tax-free income, material goods such as electronics, palatial mansions, high-speed Internet and top-of-the-line sports supplements, then the Saudi financiers of terrorist attacks are living in freedom beyond your wildest dreams.

66

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Americans are hard working no matter what the msm says. [/quote]

Chinese peasants and Soviet laborers were pretty hard-working, too. What does working hard have to do with anything?

67

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
We should be talking civil war more so than revolution anyway. Imo that is more likely. I don’t believe either are likely though. [/quote]

All revolutions are essentially accomplished by means of civil wars. The two sides might talk of “freedom” to get the young men to fight, but in the end it’s all about which group of old men get to sit in the big house and call the shots.

68

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Has freedom eroded since 9/11? Yes, but you know what? I’m sitting here typing on the internet, sipping on some Plazma, typing on my Galaxy S4, getting ready to leave work and go to my house (which I partially own) and use the personal gym I 100% own. Do you know who isn’t doing any of that? Bin Laden, who is in fact Crab shit at this point.

Terrorist have not won “In a landslide”.
[/quote]

What you are saying is, “I may have lost personal liberty, but because I still have access to consumer electronics, sports suppliments, employment and housing, none of which a dead terrorist leader currently has access to, I must conclude that the terrorists have not been as successful as some people have claimed.”

This seems rather silly to me.

The financiers of the 9/11 attacks live better than you do. They have better electronics, bigger houses, and maybe even own nicer gyms. They are rolling in money, and they pay no taxes. They can do whatever they want. They are, by all metrics, freer than you. Bin Laden was…perhaps not a pawn, but at most a knight or bishop. The big pieces are still on the board, sitting back, smoking a Havana cigar and laughing at how “free” Americans still delude themselves into thinking they are.

[/quote]
No, what I’m saying is that it takes a lot of freedom to have those things available to you. Similar, but monumentally different. [/quote]

So if the metric by which you measure freedom is access to immense wealth and a tax-free income, material goods such as electronics, palatial mansions, high-speed Internet and top-of-the-line sports supplements, then the Saudi financiers of terrorist attacks are living in freedom beyond your wildest dreams. [/quote]
No, that’s not at all what I’m saying. Maybe an example, Biotest, will help make my point. It takes a certain level of freedom for like minded individuals to form and implement a business plan to start a company like this. It take free customers with choice to choose Biotest products using money they made through their work. The customers are free to choose the employer which pay them for their services. Those that use Biotest products often freely assemble at other businesses, gyms, to pursue an activity ttey freely choose to pursue. Then they often freely assemble on free forums facilitated by the freedoms previously mentioned to talk about politics in ways that could get them killed in countries like North Korea.

Hopefully that is clear, I’m typing on my phone. Another choice I was free to make.

America was once great, we are not anymore, we could be again. That is my perspective anyway.

69

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Americans are hard working no matter what the msm says. [/quote]

Chinese peasants and Soviet laborers were pretty hard-working, too. What does working hard have to do with anything?[/quote]

The difference is freedom and choice.

70

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
We should be talking civil war more so than revolution anyway. Imo that is more likely. I don’t believe either are likely though. [/quote]

All revolutions are essentially accomplished by means of civil wars. The two sides might talk of “freedom” to get the young men to fight, but in the end it’s all about which group of old men get to sit in the big house and call the shots. [/quote]
I’m not sure the descendants of slaves would see it that way.

71

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
We should be talking civil war more so than revolution anyway. Imo that is more likely. I don’t believe either are likely though. [/quote]

All revolutions are essentially accomplished by means of civil wars. The two sides might talk of “freedom” to get the young men to fight, but in the end it’s all about which group of old men get to sit in the big house and call the shots. [/quote]
I’m not sure the descendants of slaves would see it that way. [/quote]

Probably not, because the descendents of slaves are by and large, in the words of Malcom X, “political chumps” who consistently vote for the political descendants of the very people who enslaved them. I don’t see any descendents of slaves sitting in the big house and calling the shots, do you?

72

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
We should be talking civil war more so than revolution anyway. Imo that is more likely. I don’t believe either are likely though. [/quote]

All revolutions are essentially accomplished by means of civil wars. The two sides might talk of “freedom” to get the young men to fight, but in the end it’s all about which group of old men get to sit in the big house and call the shots. [/quote]
I’m not sure the descendants of slaves would see it that way. [/quote]

Probably not, because the descendents of slaves are by and large, in the words of Malcom X, “political chumps” who consistently vote for the political descendants of the very people who enslaved them. I don’t see any descendents of slaves sitting in the big house and calling the shots, do you?[/quote]

Sure, some are, but some aren’t. At least they are free to make that choice.

73

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Americans are hard working no matter what the msm says. [/quote]

Chinese peasants and Soviet laborers were pretty hard-working, too. What does working hard have to do with anything?[/quote]

The difference is freedom and choice.[/quote]

The difference between being a chattel slave, the property of the state, with no freedom at all, and being an indentured servant, free to choose how to pay your staggering debts however you can.

As always, Heinlein has the best line.

[i]I felt that I now understood the new regime: absolute freedom… except that any official from dogcatcher to supreme potentate could give any orders whatever to any private citizen at any time.

So it was “freedom” as defined by Orwell and Kafka, “freedom” as granted by Stalin and Hitler, “freedom” to pace back and forth in your cage. [/i]

This is the state of “freedom” in 21st century Murka.

74

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
We should be talking civil war more so than revolution anyway. Imo that is more likely. I don’t believe either are likely though. [/quote]

All revolutions are essentially accomplished by means of civil wars. The two sides might talk of “freedom” to get the young men to fight, but in the end it’s all about which group of old men get to sit in the big house and call the shots. [/quote]
I’m not sure the descendants of slaves would see it that way. [/quote]

Probably not, because the descendents of slaves are by and large, in the words of Malcom X, “political chumps” who consistently vote for the political descendants of the very people who enslaved them. I don’t see any descendents of slaves sitting in the big house and calling the shots, do you?[/quote]

Sure, some are, but some aren’t. At least they are free to make that choice.[/quote]

Some descendents of slaves wield real executive power in the Federal Government, as a direct result of the Civil War? This is what I meant by “sitting in the big house and calling the shots”. Nobody fought in either the Union or Confederate armies so that slaves might someday have the opportunity to run the government.

75

If there’s a popular armed uprising it’ll likely be more socialist than libertarian.

76

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Americans are hard working no matter what the msm says. [/quote]

Chinese peasants and Soviet laborers were pretty hard-working, too. What does working hard have to do with anything?[/quote]

The difference is freedom and choice.[/quote]

The difference between being a chattel slave, the property of the state, with no freedom at all, and being an indentured servant, free to choose how to pay your staggering debts however you can.

As always, Heinlein has the best line.

[i]I felt that I now understood the new regime: absolute freedom… except that any official from dogcatcher to supreme potentate could give any orders whatever to any private citizen at any time.

So it was “freedom” as defined by Orwell and Kafka, “freedom” as granted by Stalin and Hitler, “freedom” to pace back and forth in your cage. [/i]

This is the state of “freedom” in 21st century Murka.

[/quote]
If you are an indentured servant I’m sorry to hear that. I don’t see how I am. Yes, I have some debt, yes America is in debt (which I suppose counts as partially mine). Debt is an instrument, a tool in the tool box, so to speak. A tool we are free to use or not use. Another freedom we have that others do not.

It doesn’t feel like I live in a cage. It feels like I live in a nice house, with nice modest things. It doesn’t feel like a cage when I sit on my back porch, grilling a ribeye while drinking a ice cold Yuengling. I guess I just see and appreciate the freedoms we have as much as the freedoms we’ve lost.

77

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
We should be talking civil war more so than revolution anyway. Imo that is more likely. I don’t believe either are likely though. [/quote]

All revolutions are essentially accomplished by means of civil wars. The two sides might talk of “freedom” to get the young men to fight, but in the end it’s all about which group of old men get to sit in the big house and call the shots. [/quote]
I’m not sure the descendants of slaves would see it that way. [/quote]

Probably not, because the descendents of slaves are by and large, in the words of Malcom X, “political chumps” who consistently vote for the political descendants of the very people who enslaved them. I don’t see any descendents of slaves sitting in the big house and calling the shots, do you?[/quote]

Sure, some are, but some aren’t. At least they are free to make that choice.[/quote]

Some descendents of slaves wield real executive power in the Federal Government, as a direct result of the Civil War? This is what I meant by “sitting in the big house and calling the shots”. Nobody fought in either the Union or Confederate armies so that slaves might someday have the opportunity to run the government.
[/quote]

It doesn’t matter to me why people fought in the civil war. The result was the beginning of freedom for a people that up to that point were not free. Whether that was the point or not is imo irrelevant because people that would still be slaves today are instead free to pursue what they desire, for some that’s sucking kn the government’s teat for others that’s the Oval Office.

Its not that different from the American Patriot fighting for their own freedom from rule.

78

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[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Americans are hard working no matter what the msm says. [/quote]

Chinese peasants and Soviet laborers were pretty hard-working, too. What does working hard have to do with anything?[/quote]

The difference is freedom and choice.[/quote]

The difference between being a chattel slave, the property of the state, with no freedom at all, and being an indentured servant, free to choose how to pay your staggering debts however you can.

As always, Heinlein has the best line.

[i]I felt that I now understood the new regime: absolute freedom… except that any official from dogcatcher to supreme potentate could give any orders whatever to any private citizen at any time.

So it was “freedom” as defined by Orwell and Kafka, “freedom” as granted by Stalin and Hitler, “freedom” to pace back and forth in your cage. [/i]

This is the state of “freedom” in 21st century Murka.

[/quote]
If you are an indentured servant I’m sorry to hear that. I don’t see how I am. Yes, I have some debt, yes America is in debt (which I suppose counts as partially mine). Debt is an instrument, a tool in the tool box, so to speak. A tool we are free to use or not use. Another freedom we have that others do not.

It doesn’t feel like I live in a cage. It feels like I live in a nice house, with nice modest things. It doesn’t feel like a cage when I sit on my back porch, grilling a ribeye while drinking a ice cold Yuengling. I guess I just see and appreciate the freedoms we have as much as the freedoms we’ve lost.[/quote]

We are all free to choose how we view things, I suppose.

You have clearly made your choice. Glad it’s working out for you.

Cheers.

79

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Americans are hard working no matter what the msm says. [/quote]

Chinese peasants and Soviet laborers were pretty hard-working, too. What does working hard have to do with anything?[/quote]

The difference is freedom and choice.[/quote]

The difference between being a chattel slave, the property of the state, with no freedom at all, and being an indentured servant, free to choose how to pay your staggering debts however you can.

As always, Heinlein has the best line.

[i]I felt that I now understood the new regime: absolute freedom… except that any official from dogcatcher to supreme potentate could give any orders whatever to any private citizen at any time.

So it was “freedom” as defined by Orwell and Kafka, “freedom” as granted by Stalin and Hitler, “freedom” to pace back and forth in your cage. [/i]

This is the state of “freedom” in 21st century Murka.

[/quote]
If you are an indentured servant I’m sorry to hear that. I don’t see how I am. Yes, I have some debt, yes America is in debt (which I suppose counts as partially mine). Debt is an instrument, a tool in the tool box, so to speak. A tool we are free to use or not use. Another freedom we have that others do not.

It doesn’t feel like I live in a cage. It feels like I live in a nice house, with nice modest things. It doesn’t feel like a cage when I sit on my back porch, grilling a ribeye while drinking a ice cold Yuengling. I guess I just see and appreciate the freedoms we have as much as the freedoms we’ve lost.[/quote]

We are all free to choose how we view things, I suppose.

You have clearly made your choice. Glad it’s working out for you.

Cheers. [/quote]
I can’t agree that I’m a slave to “The Man” when I freely said things in this very thread that would net me death in say, North Korea.

80

Varq, if I am blinded by my idealism you are equally as blinded by you cynicism.