Now, I’m going to sit back, enjoy some eggnog, and watch the South Park where they make fun of Bin Laden ala Bugs Bunny. I wonder what folks in Afghanistan or the DPRK are up to?
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Now, I’m going to sit back, enjoy some eggnog, and watch the South Park where they make fun of Bin Laden ala Bugs Bunny. I wonder what folks in Afghanistan or DPRK are up to?[/quote]
Likely sitting back, enjoying some tea and watching that video that shows Americans living in Red Cross shelters grilling pigeons and eating snow out of Starbucks cups.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Varq, if I am blinded by my idealism you are equally as blinded by you cynicism.[/quote]
Could be. But which of us is likely to be more disappointed if he turns out to be mistaken?
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
So it was “freedom” as defined by Orwell and Kafka, “freedom” as granted by Stalin and Hitler, “freedom” to pace back and forth in your cage. [/i]
This is the state of “freedom” in 21st century Murka.
[/quote]
Do I get to use my ipad while I’m pacing?
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Now, I’m going to sit back, enjoy some eggnog, and watch the South Park where they make fun of Bin Laden ala Bugs Bunny. I wonder what folks in Afghanistan or DPRK are up to?[/quote]
Likely sitting back, enjoying some tea and watching that video that shows Americans living in Red Cross shelters grilling pigeons and eating snow out of Starbucks cups. [/quote]
And you’re certainly free to do that.
Hmm my edit didn’t take. Anyway, that video is Probably blocked in China. Yet another freedom you and I have that many do not.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Varq, if I am blinded by my idealism you are equally as blinded by you cynicism.[/quote]
Could be. But which of us is likely to be more disappointed if he turns out to be mistaken?[/quote]
I think we will both be pretty disappointed.
Besides, life is full of disappointment. Valuable lessons can be learned from every one of them.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
If there’s a popular armed uprising it’ll likely be more socialist than libertarian.[/quote]
Twenty years ago I would have said “no way”; getting a little closer every day it seems.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
If there’s a popular armed uprising it’ll likely be more socialist than libertarian.[/quote]
Twenty years ago I would have said “no way”; getting a little closer every day it seems. [/quote]
You want to talk about apathy. Who would support a socialist movement, those on government assistance? That’s a recipe for success…
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
If there’s a popular armed uprising it’ll likely be more socialist than libertarian.[/quote]
Twenty years ago I would have said “no way”; getting a little closer every day it seems. [/quote]
You want to talk about apathy. Who would support a socialist movement, those on government assistance? That’s a recipe for success…[/quote]
Or maybe hard working workers, you know those kind of folks who was the backbone of the socialist Labour movement of the last Century.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
The loss of freedom and the generation of fear and “security worries” among the voting public is the definition of loss, as Varq explains not too far above my post.
[/quote]
What about the fear of a complete government take over and loss of freedom that Varq and H have displayed. Isn’t that just as debilitating?
[quote]florelius wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
If there’s a popular armed uprising it’ll likely be more socialist than libertarian.[/quote]
Twenty years ago I would have said “no way”; getting a little closer every day it seems. [/quote]
You want to talk about apathy. Who would support a socialist movement, those on government assistance? That’s a recipe for success…[/quote]
Or maybe hard working workers, you know those kind of folks who was the backbone of the socialist Labour movement of the last Century.[/quote]
Perhaps, I don’t know much about that especially in America.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
If you are an indentured servant I’m sorry to hear that. I don’t see how I am. Yes, I have some debt, yes America is in debt (which I suppose counts as partially mine). Debt is an instrument, a tool in the tool box, so to speak. A tool we are free to use or not use. Another freedom we have that others do not.
It doesn’t feel like I live in a cage. It feels like I live in a nice house, with nice modest things. It doesn’t feel like a cage when I sit on my back porch, grilling a ribeye while drinking a ice cold Yuengling. I guess I just see and appreciate the freedoms we have as much as the freedoms we’ve lost.[/quote]
Is there a certain size a cage must be for the definition to fit? Who tells master how much he can allow his slaves to do? If a slave manages to buy his freedom and purchase a piece of property from master, may master still make rules for slave? If slave can’t leave master’s property without entering the property of another master, what should slave do? Accept his position, or…?
[quote]H factor wrote:
Lol, how exactly did Iraq and Afghanistan “help” the economy? [/quote]
-The same way that kid I hired to break peoples’ windows all over town helped the economy.
*A few questions I have had for some time that may or may not fit in here:
- Why do we jail and punish people for “property damage,” when what they are doing is actually economic stimulation?
- Why do we jail and punish people for counterfeiting, when they are also stimulating the economy by circulating more money?
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
The loss of freedom and the generation of fear and “security worries” among the voting public is the definition of loss, as Varq explains not too far above my post.
[/quote]
What about the fear of a complete government take over and loss of freedom that Varq and H have displayed. Isn’t that just as debilitating? [/quote]
No. It stimulates people to action and education (unless you meant the extreme paranoid prepper variety of the strawman). One only remains free as long as one is vigilant to watch and strike down growing largess from the government.
“Instead of sitting down satisfied with the efforts we have already made, which is the wish of our enemies, the necessity of the times, more than ever, calls for our utmost circumspection, deliberation, fortitude, and perseverance.”
“Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.”
–Samuel Adams
“All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to … remain silent.”
“Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.”
–Jefferson
“Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the surest way to destruction.” --Anonymous
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
“Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the surest way to destruction.” --Anonymous[/quote]
Boy, that guy sounds like a cynical old sourpuss. He oughta just sip some eggnog, throw another rib eye on the gas grill, play some Xbox, and thank God he wasn’t born in North Korea.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
You know what H, you’re right, I don’t know if you would fight. That’s was uncalled for. I apologize. [/quote]
I apologize as well. The scary thing is I’d like to THINK I would fight, but don’t know if I would. I have a cushy existence just as you do. I have the same glitzy and glammy stuff you do. I love South Park just like you do (one of my favorite shows ever). Would I fight? I’d like to think so. I can fully acknowledge growths in government control I don’t like. I can fully see freedoms that have and continue to erode at a rapid pace in the name of security.
I can’t look you in the eye and say I’d fight, I can only say I’d like to think so. Hell someone could argue by not fighting yet it’s easy to make the argument I would not.
That’s scary to admit, but I think I’m hardly alone on this site if everyone is going to be honest. And like you I recognize how good we have it compared to other countries. I don’t view the goal as searching for the lowest cesspits of human existence and saying well at least we have it better than there. I don’t think you do either. America can and should be better than that. I try not to support what I think is a huge problem in the two biggest parties we have. I could always do more though. Couldn’t we all?
Here’s an interesting read on these wars and the economy usmc:
It actually has arguments from liberals, conservative economists, etc. I would encourage you to read it through and see if it doesn’t change your mind in some areas. I believe the “war is good for the economy” is a very popular myth. I’m not saying we should never go to war or even that we shouldn’t have gone to Afghanistan (Iraq I would argue against, but another time for that)…but I’m definitely not buying the fact that these insanely long, insanely expensive wars have been a net positive for the economy at all.
[quote]Military spending may at one time have been a genuine job creator when weapons were compatible with converted civilian production lines, but the days of Rosie the Riveter are long gone. Most weapons projects now require relatively little touch labor. Instead, a disproportionate share is siphoned into high-cost R&D (from which the civilian economy benefits little), exorbitant management expenditures, high overhead, and out-and-out padding, including money that flows back into political campaigns. A dollar appropriated for highway construction, health care, or education will likely create more jobs than a dollar for Pentagon weapons procurement. A University of Massachusetts study claims that several alternative projects would produce anywhere from 35 percent to 138 percent more jobs than spending the same amount on DOD.
During the decade of the 2000s, DOD budgets, including funds spent on the war, doubled in our nation’s longest sustained post-World War II defense increase. Yet during the same decade, jobs were created at the slowest rate since the Hoover administration. If defense helped the economy, it is not evident. And just the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan added over $1.4 trillion to deficits[/quote]
Another pertinent quote from another article.
H factor, what you wrote about being unsure if you’d fight reminded me of this
https://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/16133_700b.jpg
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
The terrorists won. [/quote]
I’d say they won more than they should have. [/quote]
We started two insanely long and expensive wars. We lost our standing in the world. We eroded our freedoms in the name of protection.
I can’t help but think they won in a landslide. [/quote]
I think you’re being a bit dramatic.
Yes we started two wars that were/are expensive. How is that a “win” for the terrorist, many of which are now dead because of said wars? That seems like a loss for them. Bin Laden isn’t celebrating a victory… It didn’t cripple the economy; hell you could argue it helped the economy.
We lost our place in the world, how so? Economically we are still top dog even with the recession. Politically there has been a loss of power, but to say we “lost our place” is a stretch, imo. We have lost some influence, absolutely.
Freedom is, imo, the biggest loss and it’s a big one.
It’s hard for me to agree they won in a landslide when so many terrorists are now dead and no major terrorist attack has occurred on US soil since 9/11 (You could count Libya I suppose). [/quote]
Sucks but it’s true. Not that the troops didn’t do the job, it’s the politicians and the lines they towed. That 9/11 was an attack against our freedoms but we would face our fears by bolstering the economy, spending money, enjoying our christmases and holidays were a form of in your face to the terrorists.
Basically, what ended up happening is the government got us to spend money while at the same time protecting us in such a way that we lost many of the freedoms we enjoy, even though the facade of having those freedoms still exists for many.
The terrorists lost the ground war against the troops, cant say the same about their war against civilians and the government. We sure don’t act like we aren’t afraid as a country.