Judge Rejects NSA Phone Spying

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
The terrorists won. [/quote]

I’d say they won more than they should have. [/quote]

We started two insanely long and expensive wars. We lost our standing in the world. We eroded our freedoms in the name of protection.

I can’t help but think they won in a landslide. [/quote]

I think you’re being a bit dramatic.

Yes we started two wars that were/are expensive. How is that a “win” for the terrorist, many of which are now dead because of said wars? That seems like a loss for them. Bin Laden isn’t celebrating a victory… It didn’t cripple the economy; hell you could argue it helped the economy.

We lost our place in the world, how so? Economically we are still top dog even with the recession. Politically there has been a loss of power, but to say we “lost our place” is a stretch, imo. We have lost some influence, absolutely.

Freedom is, imo, the biggest loss and it’s a big one.

It’s hard for me to agree they won in a landslide when so many terrorists are now dead and no major terrorist attack has occurred on US soil since 9/11 (You could count Libya I suppose). [/quote]

The losses of freedom alone qualify as a landslide victory IMO.

How many major terrorist attacks have been had on US soil by foreign operatives? And what is your definition of “major”? Because if it is anything like 9/11/01 or the first OTC bombing, you can’t use that definition to claim “victory” in the war on terrorism–those events were extremely rare in the first place and we have not yet passed the threshold for random variance yet. If one of them doesn’t happen in the next 20-30 years…THEN we can say with slightly more confidence “no major terrorist attacks have occurred on US soil in the last 40 years”.

That will never happen, and we will have permanently lost the freedoms we let slide away.

[/quote]

Aragorn, I did not claim a victory in the war on terror. I acknowledge the loss of freedom as a big loss. I do not agree that terrorists won in a land slide. We lost freedom yes, but you and I are conversing freely on the internet right now. Many terrorists are now dead rotting in the ground while I enjoy an afternoon coffee. How is that a win for them?

For the record, I do not believe you can “win” the war on terror. Terror will always exist.

I don’t like the term “permanent”. Freedoms that have been lost may be permanent if and only if we let them be permanent.[/quote]

Perhaps I should rephrase. You didn’t claim victory because as you rightly claim total victory cannot be accomplished. However you did claim the lack of a major terrorist attack on US soil as a success in some way. I am saying that is a very poor line of argument given the frequency of “major” terrorist attacks on US soil in the first place. It won’t be a reasonable conclusion for at least another decade, probably more like 2 or 3.

42

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
How am I a coward for acknowledging that which is demonstrably true? I guess you’re fighting to get that freedom back on post at a time! [/quote]

You have already accepted freedom has been lost NEVER to returned. You wrote that.

There are many ways to fight for freedom and I know you aren’t making fun of me for posting in PWI because that would be laughably hypocritical. [/quote]

I’m not making fun of you for posting in PWI. I’m making for fun of you for calling me a spineless coward non freedom fighter while posting in PWI (which is apparently akin to the American Revolution somehow). [/quote]

Yup, that’s exactly what I said. Especially the freedom fighter part. Please make more stuff up.

You aren’t a coward because you’ve accept your freedom is gone and not coming back. That has nothing to do with it. [/quote]

Like I said, you’ve got plenty of personal attacks. Seems to be a hallmark of people without a logical argument. Next you’ll threaten to kick my ass like conservative dog? Makes enough sense.

If you make what I think is a poor argument in PWI I will call you out for it. You really don’t need to get so butthurt about it and let it ruin your day. It’s internet discussion, not really worth getting stressed out about. I was looking forward to figuring out how these wars boosted our economy and made things better. I guess you will keep that a secret though. [/quote]

LOL.

Twist twist

43

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Perhaps I should rephrase. You didn’t claim victory because as you rightly claim total victory cannot be accomplished. However you did claim the lack of a major terrorist attack on US soil as a success in some way. I am saying that is a very poor line of argument given the frequency of “major” terrorist attacks on US soil in the first place. It won’t be a reasonable conclusion for at least another decade, probably more like 2 or 3.
[/quote]

I see what your saying and agree.

Again, I was arguing the line “The terrorist have won” which I believe is only partially true.

44

Accept my place as a subject? Ok, you’re reaching the point of lunacy. What exactly have YOU done to not accept your “place as a subject.” And what does that even mean? Because I acknowledged we had lost freedoms.

You’re not making logical arguments and so you’re going with pointless name calling like “you’re a subject.” And…you’re a predicate? You haven’t done shit and neither have I, quit acting like you’re any different from the rest of us just because you’re trying to play billy the internet bad ass who the government is scared to bum rush because the rest of us are subjects and you’re going down guns blazing.

I asked you for examples and you gave none. It would be hard to find any. And yet I’m the one who’s a subject because I acknowledge that? Meanwhile you’re fighting tooth and nail 24/7 against the jack booted thugs while the rest of us are just happy to accept our place. Seriously spitting up stuff on the keyboard.

I guess this is ground zero for the war for our personal freedoms? I never knew PWI was such a big deal.

45

[quote]H factor wrote:
Accept my place as a subject? Ok, you’re reaching the point of lunacy. What exactly have YOU done to not accept your “place as a subject.” And what does that even mean? Because I acknowledged we had lost freedoms.
[/quote]

When you said that we have lost freedoms that we will never again have, that’s not accepting your place as a subject of the state? Has freedom never been gained from an oppressive force?

I have called/written my representatives. I vote. If push came to shove I would fight. The last one is the biggest difference between you and I, I’m 100% convinced.

I’ve made plenty of logical argument. I learned long ago engaging you is not worth the time. Have you notice how every other response to other posters has been? How many posts have you glossed over and twisted or completely ignored? I don’t even know why I originally responded to you knowing that this is what would happen. It’s happened before several times because you misread, misrepresent, or misinterpret everything written that doesn’t 100% agree with your opinion.

Lol dude, whatever. I never said I’m different. “Billy the interent Badass” coming from the guy that routinely looks down on other posters when they have a different opinion.

Did I say the government is scared of me, just lol, keep making stuff up it’s entertaining.

Examples of what, I already agree like 5 time that freedom has eroded since 9/11. Jesus dude LEARN HOW TO READ

Again, just lol.

[quote]
I guess this is ground zero for the war for our personal freedoms? I never knew PWI was such a big deal. [/quote]

Now you pull the “down play” card even though PWI is the only place you post on the whole site, again just lol dude.

You get all worked up and then say it’s not worth getting butt hurt over. You’re hilarious.

What’s even more hilarious is I didn’t even disagree with you that much in the beginning. But no, I don’t think exactly like you so I must be wrong. Again, hilarious.

You don’t like what I have to say, feel free to ignore me. Heck, there’s even a fancy button that’ll help you out.

46

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
The terrorists won. [/quote]

I’d say they won more than they should have. [/quote]

We started two insanely long and expensive wars. We lost our standing in the world. We eroded our freedoms in the name of protection.

I can’t help but think they won in a landslide. [/quote]

I think you’re being a bit dramatic.

Yes we started two wars that were/are expensive. How is that a “win” for the terrorist, many of which are now dead because of said wars? That seems like a loss for them. Bin Laden isn’t celebrating a victory… It didn’t cripple the economy; hell you could argue it helped the economy.

We lost our place in the world, how so? Economically we are still top dog even with the recession. Politically there has been a loss of power, but to say we “lost our place” is a stretch, imo. We have lost some influence, absolutely.

Freedom is, imo, the biggest loss and it’s a big one.

It’s hard for me to agree they won in a landslide when so many terrorists are now dead and no major terrorist attack has occurred on US soil since 9/11 (You could count Libya I suppose). [/quote]

If I can get you to spend trillions I dont need to blow up your busses.

What does a bus go for these days?

Osama called it.[/quote]

Sounds like US cold war strategy…IMO, he learned his lessons well. [/quote]

Was the same thing he did to the USSR.

47

Has freedom eroded since 9/11? Yes, but you know what? I’m sitting here typing on the internet, sipping on some Plazma, typing on my Galaxy S4, getting ready to leave work and go to my house (which I partially own) and use the personal gym I 100% own. Do you know who isn’t doing any of that? Bin Laden, who is in fact Crab shit at this point.

Terrorist have not won “In a landslide”.

48

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
The terrorists won. [/quote]

I’d say they won more than they should have. [/quote]

We started two insanely long and expensive wars. We lost our standing in the world. We eroded our freedoms in the name of protection.

I can’t help but think they won in a landslide. [/quote]

I think you’re being a bit dramatic.

Yes we started two wars that were/are expensive. How is that a “win” for the terrorist, many of which are now dead because of said wars? That seems like a loss for them. Bin Laden isn’t celebrating a victory… It didn’t cripple the economy; hell you could argue it helped the economy.

We lost our place in the world, how so? Economically we are still top dog even with the recession. Politically there has been a loss of power, but to say we “lost our place” is a stretch, imo. We have lost some influence, absolutely.

Freedom is, imo, the biggest loss and it’s a big one.

It’s hard for me to agree they won in a landslide when so many terrorists are now dead and no major terrorist attack has occurred on US soil since 9/11 (You could count Libya I suppose). [/quote]

If I can get you to spend trillions I dont need to blow up your busses.

What does a bus go for these days?

Osama called it.[/quote]

Like I said, the won more than they should of. [/quote]

If your enemy outspends you 1000:1 you just let him go on.

49

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
The terrorists won. [/quote]

I’d say they won more than they should have. [/quote]

We started two insanely long and expensive wars. We lost our standing in the world. We eroded our freedoms in the name of protection.

I can’t help but think they won in a landslide. [/quote]

I think you’re being a bit dramatic.

Yes we started two wars that were/are expensive. How is that a “win” for the terrorist, many of which are now dead because of said wars? That seems like a loss for them. Bin Laden isn’t celebrating a victory… It didn’t cripple the economy; hell you could argue it helped the economy.

We lost our place in the world, how so? Economically we are still top dog even with the recession. Politically there has been a loss of power, but to say we “lost our place” is a stretch, imo. We have lost some influence, absolutely.

Freedom is, imo, the biggest loss and it’s a big one.

It’s hard for me to agree they won in a landslide when so many terrorists are now dead and no major terrorist attack has occurred on US soil since 9/11 (You could count Libya I suppose). [/quote]

If I can get you to spend trillions I dont need to blow up your busses.

What does a bus go for these days?

Osama called it.[/quote]

Like I said, the won more than they should of. [/quote]

If your enemy outspends you 1000:1 you just let him go on.[/quote]

Well the gov wants to cut Military pensions so everyone here should be happy.

50

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
The terrorists won. [/quote]

I’d say they won more than they should have. [/quote]

We started two insanely long and expensive wars. We lost our standing in the world. We eroded our freedoms in the name of protection.

I can’t help but think they won in a landslide. [/quote]

I think you’re being a bit dramatic.

Yes we started two wars that were/are expensive. How is that a “win” for the terrorist, many of which are now dead because of said wars? That seems like a loss for them. Bin Laden isn’t celebrating a victory… It didn’t cripple the economy; hell you could argue it helped the economy.

We lost our place in the world, how so? Economically we are still top dog even with the recession. Politically there has been a loss of power, but to say we “lost our place” is a stretch, imo. We have lost some influence, absolutely.

Freedom is, imo, the biggest loss and it’s a big one.

It’s hard for me to agree they won in a landslide when so many terrorists are now dead and no major terrorist attack has occurred on US soil since 9/11 (You could count Libya I suppose). [/quote]

If I can get you to spend trillions I dont need to blow up your busses.

What does a bus go for these days?

Osama called it.[/quote]

Like I said, the won more than they should of. [/quote]

If your enemy outspends you 1000:1 you just let him go on.[/quote]

Well the gov wants to cut Military pensions so everyone here should be happy.[/quote]

Does not matter.

Al Quaeda is everywhere now and you “need” the military presence and you actually need to care for your wounded veterans, sometimes for decades to come.

Pay more.

Let interest rates rise as they have to.

Osama bin Laden will shaft your grandkids.

Literally, with interest.

Maybe he was not enough, but he certainly did his part.

51

“Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.”

Also, before one speaks of “rebellion” and “revolution”, they should be cognizant of the difference between the two terms.

52

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Has freedom eroded since 9/11? Yes, but you know what? I’m sitting here typing on the internet, sipping on some Plazma, typing on my Galaxy S4, getting ready to leave work and go to my house (which I partially own) and use the personal gym I 100% own. Do you know who isn’t doing any of that? Bin Laden, who is in fact Crab shit at this point.

Terrorist have not won “In a landslide”.
[/quote]

Lol, you’re the guy going to fight when push comes to shove? You’re the one sitting here acknowledging you still have all this glitzy stuff just less freedom so no big deal. Sure you’ve got less freedom, but you’ve got fancy stuff so it ain’t all bad.

You’re like every other American. And so am I…the difference is I’m not pretending I’m somehow different like you are. And you’re convinced I wouldn’t fight. Based on your made up fairy tale of my existence and all the things you think you know about me?

53

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Has freedom eroded since 9/11? Yes, but you know what? I’m sitting here typing on the internet, sipping on some Plazma, typing on my Galaxy S4, getting ready to leave work and go to my house (which I partially own) and use the personal gym I 100% own. Do you know who isn’t doing any of that? Bin Laden, who is in fact Crab shit at this point.

Terrorist have not won “In a landslide”.
[/quote]

Lol, you’re the guy going to fight when push comes to shove? You’re the one sitting here acknowledging you still have all this glitzy stuff just less freedom so no big deal. Sure you’ve got less freedom, but you’ve got fancy stuff so it ain’t all bad.

You’re like every other American. And so am I…the difference is I’m not pretending I’m somehow different like you are. And you’re convinced I wouldn’t fight. Based on your made up fairy tale of my existence and all the things you think you know about me?

[/quote]
The point, as usual, you missed it.

54

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Has freedom eroded since 9/11? Yes, but you know what? I’m sitting here typing on the internet, sipping on some Plazma, typing on my Galaxy S4, getting ready to leave work and go to my house (which I partially own) and use the personal gym I 100% own. Do you know who isn’t doing any of that? Bin Laden, who is in fact Crab shit at this point.

Terrorist have not won “In a landslide”.
[/quote]

What you are saying is, “I may have lost personal liberty, but because I still have access to consumer electronics, sports suppliments, employment and housing, none of which a dead terrorist leader currently has access to, I must conclude that the terrorists have not been as successful as some people have claimed.”

This seems rather silly to me.

The financiers of the 9/11 attacks live better than you do. They have better electronics, bigger houses, and maybe even own nicer gyms. They are rolling in money, and they pay no taxes. They can do whatever they want. They are, by all metrics, freer than you. Bin Laden was…perhaps not a pawn, but at most a knight or bishop. The big pieces are still on the board, sitting back, smoking a Havana cigar and laughing at how “free” Americans still delude themselves into thinking they are.

55

[quote]Bismark wrote:
“Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.”

Also, before one speaks of “rebellion” and “revolution”, they should be cognizant of the difference between the two terms.[/quote]

It’s revolution if you win, rebellion if you don’t.

56

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Has freedom eroded since 9/11? Yes, but you know what? I’m sitting here typing on the internet, sipping on some Plazma, typing on my Galaxy S4, getting ready to leave work and go to my house (which I partially own) and use the personal gym I 100% own. Do you know who isn’t doing any of that? Bin Laden, who is in fact Crab shit at this point.

Terrorist have not won “In a landslide”.
[/quote]

Lol, you’re the guy going to fight when push comes to shove? You’re the one sitting here acknowledging you still have all this glitzy stuff just less freedom so no big deal. Sure you’ve got less freedom, but you’ve got fancy stuff so it ain’t all bad.
[/quote]

This is precisely the reason we will never regain the freedoms we have lost. People will not wake from their self-induced apathy while they use facebook activism and twitter feeds to complain about the problems they don’t care enough to really fight with time and effort. While this mindset prevails there is precisely zero chance we get the things we’ve lost back. I’d rather have freedom than security and more than fancy toys.

57

You know what H, you’re right, I don’t know if you would fight. That’s was uncalled for. I apologize.

58

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Has freedom eroded since 9/11? Yes, but you know what? I’m sitting here typing on the internet, sipping on some Plazma, typing on my Galaxy S4, getting ready to leave work and go to my house (which I partially own) and use the personal gym I 100% own. Do you know who isn’t doing any of that? Bin Laden, who is in fact Crab shit at this point.

Terrorist have not won “In a landslide”.
[/quote]

Lol, you’re the guy going to fight when push comes to shove? You’re the one sitting here acknowledging you still have all this glitzy stuff just less freedom so no big deal. Sure you’ve got less freedom, but you’ve got fancy stuff so it ain’t all bad.

You’re like every other American. And so am I…the difference is I’m not pretending I’m somehow different like you are. And you’re convinced I wouldn’t fight. Based on your made up fairy tale of my existence and all the things you think you know about me?

[/quote]
The point, as usual, you missed it.[/quote]

The likelihood of H factor, Varq, and myself all missing the point at the same time is not particularly high. If you want to say that “ok, the terrorists didn’t win in a LANDSLIDE” then fine, go ahead. I freely grant you “not a landslide”. I’ve stated that the loss of freedom is enough reason by itself, even if Iraq didn’t cost lives and even if things had turned out exactly 100% the way we wanted in both theaters. The loss of freedom and the generation of fear and “security worries” among the voting public is the definition of loss, as Varq explains not too far above my post.

59

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Has freedom eroded since 9/11? Yes, but you know what? I’m sitting here typing on the internet, sipping on some Plazma, typing on my Galaxy S4, getting ready to leave work and go to my house (which I partially own) and use the personal gym I 100% own. Do you know who isn’t doing any of that? Bin Laden, who is in fact Crab shit at this point.

Terrorist have not won “In a landslide”.
[/quote]

What you are saying is, “I may have lost personal liberty, but because I still have access to consumer electronics, sports suppliments, employment and housing, none of which a dead terrorist leader currently has access to, I must conclude that the terrorists have not been as successful as some people have claimed.”

This seems rather silly to me.

The financiers of the 9/11 attacks live better than you do. They have better electronics, bigger houses, and maybe even own nicer gyms. They are rolling in money, and they pay no taxes. They can do whatever they want. They are, by all metrics, freer than you. Bin Laden was…perhaps not a pawn, but at most a knight or bishop. The big pieces are still on the board, sitting back, smoking a Havana cigar and laughing at how “free” Americans still delude themselves into thinking they are.

[/quote]
No, what I’m saying is that it takes a lot of freedom to have those things available to you. Similar, but monumentally different.

60

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Has freedom eroded since 9/11? Yes, but you know what? I’m sitting here typing on the internet, sipping on some Plazma, typing on my Galaxy S4, getting ready to leave work and go to my house (which I partially own) and use the personal gym I 100% own. Do you know who isn’t doing any of that? Bin Laden, who is in fact Crab shit at this point.

Terrorist have not won “In a landslide”.
[/quote]

Lol, you’re the guy going to fight when push comes to shove? You’re the one sitting here acknowledging you still have all this glitzy stuff just less freedom so no big deal. Sure you’ve got less freedom, but you’ve got fancy stuff so it ain’t all bad.
[/quote]

This is precisely the reason we will never regain the freedoms we have lost. People will not wake from their self-induced apathy while they use facebook activism and twitter feeds to complain about the problems they don’t care enough to really fight with time and effort. While this mindset prevails there is precisely zero chance we get the things we’ve lost back. I’d rather have freedom than security and more than fancy toys.[/quote]

“Give me Liberty, or Give me Death!!!”