[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Talk about a subjugated perspective…do you even think?
I’m calling Bullshit here!
[/quote]
Huh?
Hfactor says we will never get out freedom back. I say we can take, like we have in the past, but I’m the subjugated one?[/quote]
You may be the delusional one.
Let’s look at this a little. “In the past” “we” “took our freedom” by having some of the greatest liberal thinkers in the world and military strategists at the time stage a military rebellion against the government, a global superpower. We won not on our own, but by enlisting the aid of the superpower’s bitterest rival, the French.
Who do you believe are the equivalents of Paine, Jefferson, Coxe, Adams and Washington today? How many people in this country do you believe are ready and willing to revolt against the government of the United States, and fight a land, sea and air war against the United States military in order to “take our freedom”? Which of the US government’s bitter rivals will we ally ourselves with to provide troops, air and sea power in our fight for freedom? China? Russia? Iran?
[quote]H factor wrote:
It’s always easy to get a rise out of the war hawks. And yet I don’t see you advocating for government spending money here as much. In fact I see you actively against it. Why be against welfare? Why be against government stimulus? The same money gets spent by people. Money for Boeing=good and they will respend it. Money for poor people (who will also respend it) is bad?
[/quote]
Dear lord, for the I don’t know 25th time, I am not against government spending. I am against wasteful government spending. Should I save this quote for the inevitable 26th time you repeat yourself?
I wasn’t comparing Adams to Bush or Washington to Obama. I was compare them to you. A coward that has already accepted freedom is lost.
I didn’t say the war on terror and WWII have much in common. All I said was, war can, has, and does, churn the economy.
Where did I use the phrase massive economic boost? I’ll wait…
What I actually said was:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
hell you could argue it helped the economy.
[/quote]
[quote]
It’s fun to watch you guys squirm around trying to justify one type of big government while railing against the other types.
Whatever, stay inconsistent.[/quote]
As usual, black and white. There can’t possibly be any reason to be for one and not the other. And I’m the one that doesn’t think, lol.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Talk about a subjugated perspective…do you even think?
I’m calling Bullshit here!
[/quote]
Huh?
Hfactor says we will never get out freedom back. I say we can take, like we have in the past, but I’m the subjugated one?[/quote]
Please give me examples of us gaining civil liberties since 9/11. Look at the situation after the Boston bombing. You think with technology and with “terrorism” fears that we will be more free sometime soon? Honestly you’re making me laugh today. Go back and explain the Broken Window Fallacy mistakes you’re making in thinking war boosts the economy while explaining to me how the Great Recession managed to happen in the midst of the two longest and most expensive wars in U.S. History. [/quote]
Learn to read
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Freedom is, imo, the biggest loss and it’s a big one.
[/quote]
Yup, I wrote that earlier.
[quote]
Go back and explain the Broken Window Fallacy mistakes you’re making in thinking war boosts the economy while explaining to me how the Great Recession managed to happen in the midst of the two longest and most expensive wars in U.S. History. [/quote]
I never said it ended the recession. Only that the recession could of been worse.
If you aren’t going to read what I wrote, why even bother responding?
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Talk about a subjugated perspective…do you even think?
I’m calling Bullshit here!
[/quote]
Huh?
Hfactor says we will never get out freedom back. I say we can take, like we have in the past, but I’m the subjugated one?[/quote]
Please give me examples of us gaining civil liberties since 9/11. Look at the situation after the Boston bombing. You think with technology and with “terrorism” fears that we will be more free sometime soon? Honestly you’re making me laugh today. Go back and explain the Broken Window Fallacy mistakes you’re making in thinking war boosts the economy while explaining to me how the Great Recession managed to happen in the midst of the two longest and most expensive wars in U.S. History. [/quote]
Learn to read
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Freedom is, imo, the biggest loss and it’s a big one.
[/quote]
Yup, I wrote that earlier.
[quote]
Go back and explain the Broken Window Fallacy mistakes you’re making in thinking war boosts the economy while explaining to me how the Great Recession managed to happen in the midst of the two longest and most expensive wars in U.S. History. [/quote]
I never said it ended the recession. Only that the recession could of been worse.
If you aren’t going to read what I wrote, why even bother responding?[/quote]
Lol, your backtracking is quite stark. You could argue it helped the economy just like you could argue man descended from 8 track tapes if you want to I guess. I’ll be busy laughing at you, but all you were saying is it “could have been worse.”
You’re not going to actually address my posts because you can’t in a logical manner so attempt to save face anyone you can I guess.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
You may be the delusional one.
Let’s look at this a little. “In the past” “we” “took our freedom” by having some of the greatest liberal thinkers in the world and military strategists at the time stage a military rebellion against the government, a global superpower. We won not on our own, but by enlisting the aid of the superpower’s bitterest rival, the French.
Who do you believe are the equivalents of Paine, Jefferson, Coxe, Adams and Washington today? How many people in this country do you believe are ready and willing to revolt against the government of the United States, and fight a land, sea and air war against the United States military in order to “take our freedom”? Which of the US government’s bitter rivals will we ally ourselves with to provide troops, air and sea power in our fight for freedom? China? Russia? Iran?[/quote]
Maybe I am delusional. I prefer Idealistic.
I don’t know if there is an equivalent to the men you mentioned in todays world. I’m confident men of character will rise to the occasion, if there ever comes a time they become necessary. I’m also confident alliance can be made if the time comes for a rebellion.
I didn’t say a revolt was occurring, needs to occur, or will occur. I simply pointed out that any freedom we have lost are not forever lost like spineless Hfactor said they are.
The three of you are reading words and statements that aren’t there.
[quote]H factor wrote:
How am I a coward for acknowledging that which is demonstrably true? I guess you’re fighting to get that freedom back on post at a time! [/quote]
You have already accepted freedom has been lost NEVER to returned. You wrote that.
There are many ways to fight for freedom and I know you aren’t making fun of me for posting in PWI because that would be laughably hypocritical.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Talk about a subjugated perspective…do you even think?
I’m calling Bullshit here!
[/quote]
Huh?
Hfactor says we will never get out freedom back. I say we can take, like we have in the past, but I’m the subjugated one?[/quote]
Yes you did, but’s that only thing you said that isn’t directly from the talking points. [/quote]
I respect your opinion, but these are not talking points. If you feel they are, please point out why and I will defend or acknowledge them for what they are.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Talk about a subjugated perspective…do you even think?
I’m calling Bullshit here!
[/quote]
Huh?
Hfactor says we will never get out freedom back. I say we can take, like we have in the past, but I’m the subjugated one?[/quote]
Please give me examples of us gaining civil liberties since 9/11. Look at the situation after the Boston bombing. You think with technology and with “terrorism” fears that we will be more free sometime soon? Honestly you’re making me laugh today. Go back and explain the Broken Window Fallacy mistakes you’re making in thinking war boosts the economy while explaining to me how the Great Recession managed to happen in the midst of the two longest and most expensive wars in U.S. History. [/quote]
Learn to read
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Freedom is, imo, the biggest loss and it’s a big one.
[/quote]
Yup, I wrote that earlier.
Is in the 2nd post I wrote toward you. How is that backtracking?
I have addressed every single point you’ve made, or tried to make, you never reciprocate. You’re a coward and a joke.
Edit:
Eight post second to you, but I’m backtracking, lol…
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
The terrorists won. [/quote]
I’d say they won more than they should have. [/quote]
We started two insanely long and expensive wars. We lost our standing in the world. We eroded our freedoms in the name of protection.
I can’t help but think they won in a landslide. [/quote]
I think you’re being a bit dramatic.
Yes we started two wars that were/are expensive. How is that a “win” for the terrorist, many of which are now dead because of said wars? That seems like a loss for them. Bin Laden isn’t celebrating a victory… It didn’t cripple the economy; hell you could argue it helped the economy.
We lost our place in the world, how so? Economically we are still top dog even with the recession. Politically there has been a loss of power, but to say we “lost our place” is a stretch, imo. We have lost some influence, absolutely.
Freedom is, imo, the biggest loss and it’s a big one.
It’s hard for me to agree they won in a landslide when so many terrorists are now dead and no major terrorist attack has occurred on US soil since 9/11 (You could count Libya I suppose). [/quote]
Maybe I am delusional. I prefer Idealistic. [/quote]
Idealism needs to be backed up with guns if it’a going to accomplish anything. No government will voluntarily return a freedom it has taken away without being forced to do so.
Do your confidence and idealism permit you to believe that this will happen in your lifetime? Any ideas as to where these “men of character” will come from? Men who have popular support, political and/or military power, the will to defy the government, AND the character required to not become just as despotic as the government they mean to replace?
You said that we would back our freedom, like we did in the past. You didn’t specify who the “we” was who took the freedom back in the past, so I assumed you were referring to the rebels who defied King George in the 18th century. They did this militarily, through two long and bloody wars and an alliance with an enemy power. Do you envision another way this time around?
[quote]The three of you are reading words and statements that aren’t there.
[/quote]
So be more specific. Who is this “we” who will take “our” freedom, and how will “we” do it, do you think?
[quote]H factor wrote:
The terrorists won. [/quote]
I’d say they won more than they should have. [/quote]
We started two insanely long and expensive wars. We lost our standing in the world. We eroded our freedoms in the name of protection.
I can’t help but think they won in a landslide. [/quote]
I think you’re being a bit dramatic.
Yes we started two wars that were/are expensive. How is that a “win” for the terrorist, many of which are now dead because of said wars? That seems like a loss for them. Bin Laden isn’t celebrating a victory… It didn’t cripple the economy; hell you could argue it helped the economy.
We lost our place in the world, how so? Economically we are still top dog even with the recession. Politically there has been a loss of power, but to say we “lost our place” is a stretch, imo. We have lost some influence, absolutely.
Freedom is, imo, the biggest loss and it’s a big one.
It’s hard for me to agree they won in a landslide when so many terrorists are now dead and no major terrorist attack has occurred on US soil since 9/11 (You could count Libya I suppose). [/quote]
The losses of freedom alone qualify as a landslide victory IMO.
How many major terrorist attacks have been had on US soil by foreign operatives? And what is your definition of “major”? Because if it is anything like 9/11/01 or the first OTC bombing, you can’t use that definition to claim “victory” in the war on terrorism–those events were extremely rare in the first place and we have not yet passed the threshold for random variance yet. If one of them doesn’t happen in the next 20-30 years…THEN we can say with slightly more confidence “no major terrorist attacks have occurred on US soil in the last 40 years”.
That will never happen, and we will have permanently lost the freedoms we let slide away.
[quote]H factor wrote:
How am I a coward for acknowledging that which is demonstrably true? I guess you’re fighting to get that freedom back on post at a time! [/quote]
You have already accepted freedom has been lost NEVER to returned. You wrote that.
There are many ways to fight for freedom and I know you aren’t making fun of me for posting in PWI because that would be laughably hypocritical. [/quote]
I’m not making fun of you for posting in PWI. I’m making for fun of you for calling me a spineless coward non freedom fighter while posting in PWI (which is apparently akin to the American Revolution somehow).
[quote]H factor wrote:
How am I a coward for acknowledging that which is demonstrably true? I guess you’re fighting to get that freedom back on post at a time! [/quote]
You have already accepted freedom has been lost NEVER to returned. You wrote that.
There are many ways to fight for freedom and I know you aren’t making fun of me for posting in PWI because that would be laughably hypocritical. [/quote]
I said some freedoms have been lost and that is DEMONSTRABLY TRUE. Will they come back? I doubt it. How many examples do you have post 9/11 of the U.S. government diminishing power at the sacrifice of “national security.” Cause I can come up with tons of ways they have increased the size and scope of the federal government in terms of gaining security. Then you came back with spineless coward giving up the revolution type psychobabble. I guess spineless coward is what you call someone who acknowledges the difficulty and unlikelihood of us going back to our pre 9/11 levels of freedoms.
Then again you’re trying to argue the recession would have been worse without two really expensive wars that we borrowed a lot of money for while we cut taxes so I don’t know why I’m attempting to reason with you. Personal attacks and deflections are what I get in response to my questions.
FWIW I think your positions are a joke and represent some of the most inane right wing talking points out there. Government=bad. Except for war government. That=good for the U.S. and good for the economy. No wonder Romney ran on cutting government but drastically increasing spending on the military, this is what people actually believe!
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Idealism needs to be backed up with guns if it’a going to accomplish anything. No government will voluntarily return a freedom it has taken away without being forced to do so.
[/quote]
I agree that the majority of the time you need guns to accomplish this. Peaceful revolution has occurred, but that’s besides the point. This isn’t communist China or Soviet Russia. I still believe the people hold the power, or enough of it, and can force change through non-violent means.
Will it happen, is a completely different question.
[quote]
Do your confidence and idealism permit you to believe that this will happen in your lifetime? Any ideas as to where these “men of character” will come from? Men who have popular support, political and/or military power, the will to defy the government, AND the character required to not become just as despotic as the government they mean to replace? [/quote]
I don’t think we will reach a point where this will need to happen in my lifetime. I certainly hope it doesn’t come to blood shed.
I think men of character can come from anywhere. Who was Thomas Paine? A nobody, yet he had an impact on the America revolution. I believe Men will rise if need be, I can’t prove it, but that’s what my gut says.
What I actually said was we can take our freedom back. The we is the rebels, yes. Yes it was militarily, the situation was different and a military revolution was necessary. Is our current situation the same, perhaps, there are a lot of factors to consider.
Do I see another way, maybe. Again, it’s hard to say. I think we the people can pressure Washington to change. The NSA ruling (the OP) is one step in that direct. Let’s see where that leads.
I’m happy to. You just have to ask.
I think that we, is the American people, and “We” have a long hard road ahead of us. “We” need to pressure Washington, through out voice and votes, for now to change. “We” as a nation need to wake up and realize “We” are fucking ourselves and our families through apathy. And if it comes to it “We” need to be willing to die for future generations to rectify the situation.
[quote]H factor wrote:
From the geniuses who brought you the Bush tax cuts during these wars comes…“WAR- IT’S ALWAYS AN ECONOMIC BOOST!” Well, as long as you don’t understand economics it is. [/quote]
Nice edit you added…
I understand economics fine. I’m not an expert like 99% of the folks on here though.
[quote]H factor wrote:
How am I a coward for acknowledging that which is demonstrably true? I guess you’re fighting to get that freedom back on post at a time! [/quote]
You have already accepted freedom has been lost NEVER to returned. You wrote that.
There are many ways to fight for freedom and I know you aren’t making fun of me for posting in PWI because that would be laughably hypocritical. [/quote]
I’m not making fun of you for posting in PWI. I’m making for fun of you for calling me a spineless coward non freedom fighter while posting in PWI (which is apparently akin to the American Revolution somehow). [/quote]
Yup, that’s exactly what I said. Especially the freedom fighter part. Please make more stuff up.
You aren’t a coward because you’ve accept your freedom is gone and not coming back. That has nothing to do with it.
[quote]H factor wrote:
The terrorists won. [/quote]
I’d say they won more than they should have. [/quote]
We started two insanely long and expensive wars. We lost our standing in the world. We eroded our freedoms in the name of protection.
I can’t help but think they won in a landslide. [/quote]
I think you’re being a bit dramatic.
Yes we started two wars that were/are expensive. How is that a “win” for the terrorist, many of which are now dead because of said wars? That seems like a loss for them. Bin Laden isn’t celebrating a victory… It didn’t cripple the economy; hell you could argue it helped the economy.
We lost our place in the world, how so? Economically we are still top dog even with the recession. Politically there has been a loss of power, but to say we “lost our place” is a stretch, imo. We have lost some influence, absolutely.
Freedom is, imo, the biggest loss and it’s a big one.
It’s hard for me to agree they won in a landslide when so many terrorists are now dead and no major terrorist attack has occurred on US soil since 9/11 (You could count Libya I suppose). [/quote]
The losses of freedom alone qualify as a landslide victory IMO.
How many major terrorist attacks have been had on US soil by foreign operatives? And what is your definition of “major”? Because if it is anything like 9/11/01 or the first OTC bombing, you can’t use that definition to claim “victory” in the war on terrorism–those events were extremely rare in the first place and we have not yet passed the threshold for random variance yet. If one of them doesn’t happen in the next 20-30 years…THEN we can say with slightly more confidence “no major terrorist attacks have occurred on US soil in the last 40 years”.
That will never happen, and we will have permanently lost the freedoms we let slide away.
[/quote]
Aragorn, I did not claim a victory in the war on terror. I acknowledge the loss of freedom as a big loss. I do not agree that terrorists won in a land slide. We lost freedom yes, but you and I are conversing freely on the internet right now. Many terrorists are now dead rotting in the ground while I enjoy an afternoon coffee. How is that a win for them?
For the record, I do not believe you can “win” the war on terror. Terror will always exist.
I don’t like the term “permanent”. Freedoms that have been lost may be permanent if and only if we let them be permanent.
[quote]H factor wrote:
How am I a coward for acknowledging that which is demonstrably true? I guess you’re fighting to get that freedom back on post at a time! [/quote]
You have already accepted freedom has been lost NEVER to returned. You wrote that.
There are many ways to fight for freedom and I know you aren’t making fun of me for posting in PWI because that would be laughably hypocritical. [/quote]
I’m not making fun of you for posting in PWI. I’m making for fun of you for calling me a spineless coward non freedom fighter while posting in PWI (which is apparently akin to the American Revolution somehow). [/quote]
Yup, that’s exactly what I said. Especially the freedom fighter part. Please make more stuff up.
You aren’t a coward because you’ve accept your freedom is gone and not coming back. That has nothing to do with it. [/quote]
Like I said, you’ve got plenty of personal attacks. Seems to be a hallmark of people without a logical argument. Next you’ll threaten to kick my ass like conservative dog? Makes enough sense.
If you make what I think is a poor argument in PWI I will call you out for it. You really don’t need to get so butthurt about it and let it ruin your day. It’s internet discussion, not really worth getting stressed out about. I was looking forward to figuring out how these wars boosted our economy and made things better. I guess you will keep that a secret though.
[quote]H factor wrote:
I said some freedoms have been lost and that is DEMONSTRABLY TRUE. [/quote]
No you didn’t:
[quote]H factor wrote:
We eroded our freedoms in the name of protection.
[/quote]
and
[quote]H factor wrote:
We won’t ever get those freedoms back either. We will live in an ever expanding police state and become more like those places we claim to hate than less. [/quote]
Based on what?
Already agreed this happened and pointed this out several times now. Keep harping on it if it makes you feel better though.
[quote]
Then you came back with spineless coward giving up the revolution type psychobabble.[/quote]
No, you are a spineless coward because you’ve already accepted you place as a subject.
Never said it wouldn’t be difficult or unlikely. I said, you are spineless for already accepting it will NEVER happen. You’re like the guy that says he can NEVER gain muscle because of his genetic or he doesn’t use steroids. Change is hard.
Keepign twisting those words. Twist twist twist.
Me calling you a coward isn’t a personal attack at all. It’s calling a spade a spade. And lol at pulling the “personal attack card”. Coming from you that’s hilarious.
Deflection, just hilarious. How many things have you “deflected” in this very thread…
[quote]
FWIW I think your positions are a joke and represent some of the most inane right wing talking points out there. Government=bad. Except for war government. That=good for the U.S. and good for the economy. No wonder Romney ran on cutting government but drastically increasing spending on the military, this is what people actually believe! [/quote]
That’s okay, I think you’re a joke.
You have no idea what I stand for because you don’t take the time to think about what I wrote or even ask about it.
That’s okay, in 3 weeks you’ll say I’m against all government spending for the 26th time.