^^
Good for you. You know what that proves? You applied what you learned well, and you didn’t hit your head on anything on the way down.
Doesn’t prove anything regarding BJJ’s efficacy, but it was a cool story.
^^Actually, I think in that type of situation (no weapons, 1 on 1, lots of people around to break up the fight if one person gets into serious trouble/one side is obviously winning, in other words very similar to a sport fight/Gracie Challenge match) that BJJ has a pretty solid track record of success. I would even argue that such situations are pretty much the arena of application that GJJ/BJJ was created in/for. Yes, there is furniture and other environmental factors to contend with which is different from a big matted surface or empty beach, but most of the other conditions are similar.
Change the conditions though and you start to need other arsenals which are not highly developed, if developed at all, in pure BJJ/GJJ schools. That is the general issue that people are addressing regarding BJJ/GJJ, not that the techniques/skills taught don’t work given their appropriate opportunity for application; even stuff like jumping guard is fine given the appropriate setting.
It’s when people take skills and apply them in the wrong types of situations or think that such techniques can be utilized in all arenas of application that you start getting into trouble.
Sento,
I respect your opinion too much to argue with you. We will simply have to agree to disagree on this one.
No harm, no foul, as they say.
Catch Wrestling!!! FTW!!!
Lol, catch is great, as is Judo, BJJ, Sambo, Pankration, Japanese JJ, or any other grappling art if trained realistically; you just have to realize their limitations and either adapt the art to better fit your area of concentration/arena of application or supplement them with other skill sets.
Also, I’m not saying that I think BJJ/GJJ is the “best” skill set to have in such situations (although, in that specific situation you’d better have at least some effective ground fighting skills), just that those skill sets are going to be much better suited to those situations than say on the battlefield or dealing with multiple attackers or weapon wielding attackers; which are just as likely (maybe more depending on where you live/hang out) than a 1 on 1, no weapons, “duel” style of fight popularized by MMA/sport combat/Gracie Challenge type situations.
Back in time to get in on a ‘best style for street fighting thread’.
I’ve said much of what I believe before, most of which is put far more intelligently above by the regulars. As many have suggested, finding a good gym is better than finding a particular style. As has also been pointed out, OVER reliance on a particular style will create problems for you that you may not have experienced if you had no training at all. I do personally think any training worth its salt will have you do full contact sparring.
This is essential to my mind, because it gets you used to getting hurt, and having someone in front of you who is trying to fuck you up. This is important, because very often in a ‘street’ situation, there is an emotional response of ‘what is this guy’s problem, why won’t he just leave me alone?’. Training something where you get used to someone you otherwise like trying to hurt you is psychologically valuable, as it helps you dish out effective violence without emotion. It also stops you freezing when contact comes.
As an extension of the above, I would say that whatever you choose should involve striking as a primary (not necessarily exclusive) threat. I’ve had the chance to do a bit of BJJ, but have grown up with boxing. Whilst BJJ is undoubtedly effective from a technique point of view, there is a huge psychological difference between putting on a gi, getting on a mat, and grappling, and gloving up, getting into the ring, and slogging 8 bells out of each other. It is my firm believe that the mind set required for the latter is far more useful in a no rules fight, and that combined with the stress inoculation that is a side effect of doing it repeatedly, best prepares you for ‘real’ violence.
My personal opinion of anything (and this to an extent includes BJJ) that claims the techniques are too deadly to practise at full tempo, is that under extreme stress and operating without a set of rules, you are likely to hesitate or rely too much on technique over extreme aggression, stamina, and willingness to do harm. Hesitation is probably what will cost you your long term health in such a situation. Striking sports get you used to responding instinctively to paid dealt by your opponent by returning that pain with equal enthusiasm. This is a valuable instinct, far more valuable than the techniques for doing so themselves.
For all of this, mindset is the most important thing to have and develop. I know a great many guys who are slicker boxers than me, who would annihilate me in the ring, that would lose very quickly if we were locked in a room with only one coming out.
The last thing I would say is that I would never rule out someone who is big, strong, and supremely fit, even if they had no combat training at all. Being big and strong helps, anyone who says it doesn’t isn’t big and strong and has heard stories from their mates about their bad ass midget friend who fucked up a bunch of guys twice their size based on bad intentions alone. Perhaps more important than just size though is conditioning.
There is something funny about being incredibly fit - your ability to absorb punishment increases dramatically, your aggression levels rise considerably (not necessarily uncontrollably), and I would say that the confidence that comes from the hard work of being genuinely extremely well conditioned (getting to this point is fucking hard - look at Donnie’s log!) is well founded and invaluable in a ‘real’ fight. Basically do tougher things than most will, to become tougher than most.
This is starting to ramble. End post.
Definitely concur with the mindset and athleticism point that London made. If someone has supreme physical athleticism (strength, speed, flexibility, endurance, balance, reflexes, etc…), will not hesitate to do anything and everything to win/harm their opponent, and are constantly aware/not easily surprised/ambushed, then that is a very dangerous person regardless of formal combat sports/martial arts experience. Of course, combine that with a high degree of Martial skill, and that person becomes even more formidable.
I know I’m late to the party here. But I used BJJ in a real world scenario yesterday. I adjusted my hold on my toothbrush and realised: “Oh shit, that’s the umbrella grip for spider guard! BJJ really works!”
glad to see nothings changed
If we are talking about conceptually using Jiu-Jitsu (which is based on optimal leverage, body mechanics, etc…), then I actually use it all the time every day, be it while varying a load of bags of groceries in from the car, while carrying or lifting up my son, while Personal Training people to explain what and why they should adjust while performing an exercise to optimize efficiency, etc… But then we LSM people seek to maintain a 24/7 Warrior lifestyle and to not only “train” while we are in the dojo/on the mat/in the ring/cage but live our lives as Martial Artists (more of an all inclusive “Kung Fu” approach to life) and seek (but never be satisfied with) excellence in every area of life.
I realize this is not what the OP was referring to, but I think it’s a useful paradigm shift regarding what it means to use one’s Martial Art in “real life”.
I’ve used Jiu Jitsu in the gym against much bigger guys successfully, one of them was a powerlifter weighing about 17 stone, while I just weighed about 9 stone at the time. So it’s workable against a bigger stronger guy if he doesn’t know what he’s doing.
But like I said that was in a gym. If it was in the street there’d be nothing stopping him from gouging my eyes, fish hooking, biting, his mates coming and kicking me in the head. The floor is the last place you want to be in a street fight, but I guess if you don’t know any Jiu Jitsu at all and it does end up on the ground you’ve got no chance at all.
[quote]AdamThomas wrote:
If it was in the street there’d be nothing stopping him from gouging my eyes, fish hooking, biting,[/quote]
Actually, your skill should be stopping or limiting those things. They all work better with leverage and strength and that is far easier to bring to bear from a better position.
This on the other hand is far less easily dealt with and leads many folks to describe things with the same short hand you used. Namely;
Regards,
Robert A
I’ve had some 80+ streets fights over the past five or six years.
My background is bjj so it always came natural to me taking the fight to the ground.
Only once did it backfire when i was kicked in the head While being on top of a guy. Guess his friend felt ledt out.
In my experience taking the fight where most People dont know how to defend is a great strategy. weighing in at around 85kgs on a good day i’m far from being big or particular strong, but i’ve been in some pretth bad confrontations. I’ve had my share og 1vs1’s but i’ve Also been in more Than a few 2,3 and 4 vs 1. Some were smaller Than me, most my size, some bigger and some much bigger.
Sure i looked pretty afterwards, but i bet i would be even pretier and properly still swinging would i had chosen to stand.
I Dont ever recall having problems snapping an arm or choking someone out when i had the position to do so, regardless of size.
Taking someone Down with something like a double only tales a second, but Can seriously hurt someone. Grabbing an arm and yanking it the wrong Way with full force only takes a second. Sure it might not break, but he’s out of the fight. Ok, you might get smacked in the face While doing so, but chances are you would stranding as well. Choke someone out takes a few seconds.
Lets get Real here. If you are in a situation og life and death and it’s going Down Without any escape possibility, Telling someone who dont grapple not to go on the Ground would be the right answer. Telling someone who do, is the wrong one. Why would you advokate anyone from using their best weapon at hand.
“I’ve had some 80+ streets fights over the past five or six years”
Just curious: What is your profession?
I was a bouncer in that period of my life. Haven’t been for some years now though. I fucking Hated that job!
Ok, just for the sake of argument, here are some reasons why you generally don’t want to take things to the ground in a real fight:
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Once you begin to grapple with someone on the ground you become entangled with them, this slows down your ability to quickly escape the situation if need be. Yes, there are definitely ways to be less entangled while grappling and positions which allow quicker seperation, return to the feet, and therefore escape, but all of them still require more time than if you keep things on the feet.
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Even though there are certainly grappling techniques which can quickly incapacitate an opponent (chokes for example), they still require more time to put someone unconscious than a strike does. Other than diffusing the situation or avoiding it altogether, striking still remains the fastest means of incapacitating an opponent (other than of course weapons). You also have to take the time to achieve a position from which you can apply an effective choke or joint lock, which adds even more time to the duration of the encounter.
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As was mentioned in the knife defense thread, you never know if someone is armed, and even if they are not initially, if there are any available makeshift/improvised weapons nearby they may gain access to them. This is bad news is you are again entangled with them on the ground. Yes, you can learn to defend against and “check” against weapons deployment while on the ground, but most BJJ does not address this. If yours does then great, mine does too, but I think it’s dangerous to assume that others reading your advice do so also.
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Cement, hardwood floors, gravel, tile floors, and other similar hard and/or abrasive unpadded surfaces do not lend themselves to BJJ/grappling the same way that soft, smooth, matted surfaces do; there are also no hard pieces of furniture, curbs, rocks, or other potentially harmful obstacles on a training mat/in a ring/in a cage like there are in most establishments/homes/outside. Yes, there are modifications that can be made, and I completely agree that throwing someone onto the ground can be a devastating technique (hence why many people cite Judo as a good self defense art), but again, many BJJ schools do not effectively address this reality or teach such modifications adequately, which again is why I think advising people to go to the ground is dangerous.
Points 1-3 all add up to a general increase in time frame and again entanglement, and since Murphy’s law is always in effect, the longer a fight lasts the greater the chances that something can go wrong (weapons, multiple opponents, multiple opponents with weapons, exchange of bodily fluids, etc…), point 4 is probably the least important of these points, but still relevant and valid (though probably the easiest to remedy with proper training).
Now, just to play devil’s advocate, here are some valid reasons why you would want to take things to the ground:
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Your job is to subdue and restrain would be opponents; LEO’s, bouncers, bodyguards, and other professionals who’s job it is to “keep the peace” fall into this category. Often times they are not actually met with true life or death levels of violence (though the LEO’s would experience it the most regularly out of this group) but instead generally lower levels of violence and thus the levels of force that they need/should utilize are less lethal. Not saying these individuals can’t come face to face with extreme levels of violence directed at them, because they certainly can, just that the majority of resistance the encounter is more geared towards restraint and control, which grappling is excellent for.
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Along the same lines as 1, the person who you are dealing with is inebriated (stumbling drunk), a friend/relative who you don’t really want to hurt badly if you can avoid it, or someone else who is really not a tremendous threat (though you should avoid underestimating people because a 10 year old kid or 70 year old woman with a knife is a potentially deadly opponent). In such cases using extreme levels of force or even KO’ing them with strikes may not be the best or most humane way to finish the fight and instead restraining or controlling them may be a better route
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You are getting whooped on your feet or are unable to damage the opponent sufficiently with strikes to incapacitate them. Clearly if you realize that you are no match for someone else striking you need to switch things up or you are going to lose the fight. Probably the best option here would be to get a hold of a weapon, but on the chance that there are none available to you and you are an accomplished ground fighter, changing the fight to a ground fight may spell victory for you. You just have to be aware of the potential pitfalls and hazards of real ground fighting.
For the record I am a big advocate of learning effective RMA ground fighting and train with probably the best RMA ground fighters in the World (Shihan Walt Lysak Jr and Shihan Charlie Lysak), but even they are huge advocates of learning effective stand-up fighting (and weapons, and verbal self defense, and pretty much everything else combat related) and they have been in hundreds (between them and their father thousands) of real fights involving weapons, multiple opponents, etc…to come to that conclusion. The point is being one dimensional (regardless of whether it’s just grappling or just striking) is not the best approach if you truly want to maximize your ability to defend yourself in a real situation.
Sento,
Excellent post and analysis.
[quote]idaho wrote:
Sento,
Excellent post and analysis. [/quote]
Agree.
Thank you for taking the time to type that out. Honestly, we should save it and repost it when this topic shows up.
Regards,
Robert A