Jiu Jitsu in Real Life Situations

Training
121

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:
I have helped teach the program in Iraq. IMHO, while any type of training in combatives, if taught correctly, is good. However, ACP is far, far too reliant on “sport” techniques instead teaching someone to kill. Part of this may be due to the current military culture of possessing a fanatical devotion to MMA, especially the UFC. I dont know how many times I have heard, “well, this fighter does this or that fighter does it this way”. Really? and what does that have to do with surviving on the battlefield? Do you think the Taliban, Boka Haram ,or Russian Spetsnaz gives a shit about a fighter in the UFC? Get your head in the game or have ISIS cut it off.
[/quote]

Good post, as always.

To the first bolded comment:

I don’t have your experience to be sure, but accomplishing this with “empty hands” is a hard row to hoe. Most of the empty handed deaths I am familiar with involve either stomping the shit out of a downed person over a period of time or strangling the shit out of someone. I have written before about how not all cervical fractures are instantly debilitating, actually most aren’t. There are reflexive defenses to most of the “lethal” techniques I have learned. Not that they shouldn’t be practiced, but that in reality they won’t be the “one strike”/one movement kills they often get hyped as.

I will seriously echo mapwhap’s statement about getting to a tool. Then the ability to do neutralizing levels of damage go way, way up.

I agree with you, it is very hard to kill someone with your hands, even the vaulted “crush the trachea” is hard to do when engaged in a all out fight. But, I have to work in the within the rules of USG training and that is restrictive and most of the time , stupid. My main goal in training is to teach them to to stay alive long enough to get to a weapon of any kind to finish the job. Once, I was showing some troops how to use a M-9 magazine to blind and crush, was noticed by a officer, pulled from the line and dismissed that day for “excessive techniques”. WTF?

Something I picked up in my years of gi-faggotry/pajama fighting (thanks for those terms Ranzo, wherever you are) is to work in “weapon access”. If you are stuck with a more “MMA” style combatives, than work/reward/try to hold positions where the dominant man can/could access his weapon. Something as simple as being able to hold mount/knee on chest with your strong side hand rubbing the area where your side arm/knife would be for 3-5 seconds with no interference can be included with little effort. Make this as much of a “win” as a joint lock, sweep, ect.

Agree. Locking someone down to draw you knife, magazine, tool, rock …whatever, then finish them.

I am also fond of telling people if your partner could tap out on your forehead(face/eyes) or cup or inner thigh(groin) than that submission would have been a lot more sporty without a ref.

To the second bolded:

I am told pro wrestling/WWE is really, REALLY popular in the middle east and a lot of the material I have seen being sold as Spetsnaz in origin seems to be from the “looks awesome in demo’s” department so it wouldn’t surprise me if they did. On the other hand, the folks like yourself who are tasked with either making bad folks die bloody or teaching others to do the same most likely have different priorities.

You are correct: WWE is extremely popular in every Middle East country I have ever worked in, what’s ironic is, as much as we are hated , Chuck Norris, Segal, Jackie Chan, VanDamme, etc…are practically God’s here. I dont know many times I been asked if I know them.

Regards,

Robert A

[/quote]

122

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Agreed Robert. To be honest though, we LSM guys are a little crazy and the thought of training in real environments is more likely to ilicit excitement than dread. :slight_smile:
[/quote]
Yeah, but you are my kind of crazy. So it’s forgivable.

[quote]
Regarding unarmed killing techniques, pretty much the only ones that I would classify as “likely to cause death” are those involving trauma to the throat/breathing mechanism. “Kill chokes” and braced strikes to the throat (for instance from side control where the body cannot move away from the force of the strike due to the ground creating an “anvil” effect) if done correctly and with enough force will have a fairly high likelihood of causing eventual death due to lack of breathing.

I think the focus as an unarmed combatant would be better placed on “ending the fight” (be that due to subduing/restraining the adversary in a security scenario, rendering them unconscious, causing enough damage that they were unable to continue to effectively fight, or killing them) as quickly as possible rather than purely focused on killing techniques. After all, it’s pretty easy (at least tactically, mentally and emotionally is another story) to access a weapon and kill someone who you have already knocked unconscious and definitely easier if you have damaged them severly or have restrained/controlled to where they cannot fight back effectively.[/quote]

To any lurkers (I think everyone posting knows this),

Pay real good attention to this post, but especially the part bolded. There is a massive difference between what happens when the guy can move away from a strike or gauge vs when he is pinned. The same shot that just “drops” someone standing up can have fatal consequences when he is held as described.

I would than suggest re-reading Sento’s comments about when that might be justifiable, and the fact that a lot of times getting into position to be able to do so means the “needs lethal force to solve” problem may have already been dealt with.

None of this is legal advice, but figuring out if you are governed by Rules of Engagement/.mil or Constitution/Fed and State Laws also play a part in the utility of this material.

Regards,

Robert A

123

idaho,

RE: Techniques

Does the “excessive” guy know the “don’t kick the bag” guy? I don’t suppose pointing out that any of the combat medic training he has likely been exposed to covered that trach swelling happens “over time”, and loss of consciousness do to airway obstruction happens after that, would help? In no possible universe could blinding someone you are trying to throat shot make them “deader”, but it could keep them from taking you with them. I would love a Q and A with that guy. I would just love to sort of walk through his thought process.

Regards,

Robert A

124

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:
I have helped teach the program in Iraq. IMHO, while any type of training in combatives, if taught correctly, is good. However, ACP is far, far too reliant on “sport” techniques instead teaching someone to kill. Part of this may be due to the current military culture of possessing a fanatical devotion to MMA, especially the UFC. I dont know how many times I have heard, “well, this fighter does this or that fighter does it this way”. Really? and what does that have to do with surviving on the battlefield? Do you think the Taliban, Boka Haram ,or Russian Spetsnaz gives a shit about a fighter in the UFC? Get your head in the game or have ISIS cut it off.
[/quote]

Good post, as always.

To the first bolded comment:

I don’t have your experience to be sure, but accomplishing this with “empty hands” is a hard row to hoe. Most of the empty handed deaths I am familiar with involve either stomping the shit out of a downed person over a period of time or strangling the shit out of someone. I have written before about how not all cervical fractures are instantly debilitating, actually most aren’t. There are reflexive defenses to most of the “lethal” techniques I have learned. Not that they shouldn’t be practiced, but that in reality they won’t be the “one strike”/one movement kills they often get hyped as.

I will seriously echo mapwhap’s statement about getting to a tool. Then the ability to do neutralizing levels of damage go way, way up.

Something I picked up in my years of gi-faggotry/pajama fighting (thanks for those terms Ranzo, wherever you are) is to work in “weapon access”. If you are stuck with a more “MMA” style combatives, than work/reward/try to hold positions where the dominant man can/could access his weapon. Something as simple as being able to hold mount/knee on chest with your strong side hand rubbing the area where your side arm/knife would be for 3-5 seconds with no interference can be included with little effort. Make this as much of a “win” as a joint lock, sweep, ect.

I am also fond of telling people if your partner could tap out on your forehead(face/eyes) or cup or inner thigh(groin) than that submission would have been a lot more sporty without a ref.

To the second bolded:

I am told pro wrestling/WWE is really, REALLY popular in the middle east and a lot of the material I have seen being sold as Spetsnaz in origin seems to be from the “looks awesome in demo’s” department so it wouldn’t surprise me if they did. On the other hand, the folks like yourself who are tasked with either making bad folks die bloody or teaching others to do the same most likely have different priorities.

Regards,

Robert A

[/quote]

Having computer issues this morning:

I agree with you, it is very hard to kill someone with your hands, even the vaulted “crush the trachea” is hard to do when engaged in an all out fight, but, I have to work within the rules of USG training and that is restrictive and most of the time, stupid. My main goal in training is to teach them to stay alive, by any means possible, long enough to get to a weapon of any kind to finish the job. Once, I was showing some troops how to use a M-9 magazine to blind and crush, was noticed by a high ranking offical, pulled from the line and dismissed that day for “excessive techniques”…Well, ok, dickhead, WTF?

I agree with locking someone down to access your knife, magazine, tool, rock, …whatever, then finish him.

You are correct: WWE is extremely popular in every Middle East country I have ever worked in, what is really ironic, is as much as we are hated as Americans, Chuck Norris, Segal, Jackie Chan, VanDamme, etc…are practically God’s here. I dont know how many times , I have been asked if I know them…

125

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
One of the soldiers (a private first class, if I’m not mistaken) jumped in the air and pulled the haji into his guard…and then tried to work a submission on him.
[/quote]

In fairness I don’t think that lunacy can be blaimed on BJJ. I hope zecarlo reads this because I suspect he could correct/confirm my hazy memory but I think the “don’t pull guard, be on top” strategy was already established back when Carlson Gracie had the best fight team. I think Bustamante, Sperry, Ismail, ect. were all huge advocates of doing whatever possible to get off your back, even if it meant standing up as opposed to just trying to drag someone to the ground. This would have been in the 90’s. I think. I know Royce fought off his back a lot in the early UFC’s, but I think that had to do more with him not being able to get on top against guys who outweighed him like Severn, Shamrock, Hackney, ect. Against the fish he was always on top.

Glad your fried did some actual “combatives” and saved the private.

[quote]
BUT…as we have discussed in another thread…equipping them with crossbows and coiled white rope renders the whole argument moot anyway… [/quote]

Didn’t the Hague Convention bar that along with dum dums?

Regards,

Robert A

126

^^

What it can be blamed on is the blind devotion to all things BJJ / UFC that exists in the military…and the fact that most privates are getting MACP Level One…where, of course, they are taught to pull guard as an immediate defensive / reset / rest position for a beginner. (I imagine this is true of most schools…I know that’s how and when I learned it.)

The problem then gets compounded by the fact that many of them never progress past Level One. Thus, they end up as most privates do, which is knowing just enough hand-to-hand combat “skills” to get themselves killed quickly in a real fight. Add to that the normal effects of passing information down through the years, and through different generations of soldiers, and pretty soon that’s all a guy knows how to do…and the worst part is that he’s being taught that it’s going to save his life in combat.

Now…rules of war be damned…if each soldier were issued a crossbow and a coil of white rope, the US military would be restored to its former glory in no time at all!!!

Ah…dare to dream…

127

Lol! Will you guys quite giving away the ultimate combat secret!? If we aren’t careful some enemy combatants might find this thread and then arm themselves with crossbows and white rope; then we’re all screwed!

I honestly can’t speak for pure BJJ schools as my instructors have never been pure BJJ in their approach and even professor Mondelli also teaches Judo and MMA (and has said that even when he originally started training in BJJ in Brazil that it was made clear that there is BJJ geared towards competition BJJ; BJJ geared towards Vale Tudo/MMA; and BJJ geared towards self defense) and so none of my instructors ever taught us to jump guard as a “go o” or reset position. Jumping guard pretty much gaurantees/gauranteed getting your head smashed into the ground, which hurts bad enough on a mat but could be lethal on concrete. I was actually coaching one of out Blue Belts at a grappling tournament who had his opponent try to jump guard and he reflexively just posted on the guy’s neck and dropped to his knees, thus causing his opponent’s head to hit the ground. The force of the impact (on mats) seriously rocked the other guy (I believe he wound up with a mild concussion, but know for a fact that he was unable to continue grappling (the student from my school was also subsequently disqualified from continuing); had this been on concrete and that same impact may have resulted in severe brain trauma or even death. I’m of course not condoning people use illegal tactics in competition, but I think this demonstrates one of the very real dangers of jumping guard when your opponent doesn’t play by your “rules”.

Nobody should be teaching people to jump guard as a go to, especially if you aren’t being protected by sport BJJ competition rules and mats designed to absorbe some of the force of impact when hitting the ground.

128

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
^^

What it can be blamed on is the blind devotion to all things BJJ / UFC that exists in the military…and the fact that most privates are getting MACP Level One…where, of course, they are taught to pull guard as an immediate defensive / reset / rest position for a beginner. (I imagine this is true of most schools…I know that’s how and when I learned it.)

The problem then gets compounded by the fact that many of them never progress past Level One. Thus, they end up as most privates do, which is knowing just enough hand-to-hand combat “skills” to get themselves killed quickly in a real fight. Add to that the normal effects of passing information down through the years, and through different generations of soldiers, and pretty soon that’s all a guy knows how to do…and the worst part is that he’s being taught that it’s going to save his life in combat.

Now…rules of war be damned…if each soldier were issued a crossbow and a coil of white rope, the US military would be restored to its former glory in no time at all!!!

Ah…dare to dream…[/quote]

Oh, white belt martial arts syndrome.

That isn’t just a “combatives” thing. It is an any art thing. Everyone with 8 weeks of boxing/kickboxing/whatever thinks they can ko the world. I think you pegged it when you said the major issue is not going past level one.

I know devildog_jim had some complimentary things to say about the USMC programs (MCMAP) and I value his opinion/judgement. I think he also outlined the white belts are still white belts problem.

As for the the way new grapplers approach the guard, I wonder if focussing on standing up/technical stand up THEN posture control, THEN sweeps/submissions would paint the “This is for living long enough to get somewhere better” picture instead of giving the white belt on armbar and having them go to work. I don’t know. It likely doesn’t matter.

I fell into that trap myself way early, but drilling against punches pretty much reinforced the “only if you have to” lesson about being on the bottom.

Regards,

Robert A

129

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Lol! Will you guys quite giving away the ultimate combat secret!? If we aren’t careful some enemy combatants might find this thread and then arm themselves with crossbows and white rope; then we’re all screwed!
[/quote]
May we never see the day…

[quote]
Nobody should be teaching people to jump guard as a go to, especially if you aren’t being protected by sport BJJ competition rules and mats designed to absorbe some of the force of impact when hitting the ground.[/quote]

The only guard pulling/jumping I have seen that looks at all workable falls into two categories.

1.) Just sitting down-Sport Grappling only, but there are guys who will sit into sort of butterfly/open guard and manage to play it at high(ish) levels.

or

2.) Using an arm in guilletine as the upper body control when they jump/pull. This solves some of the issue of getting planted, and I believe also avoids getting called for flopping if that is verboten. This should prevent the reflexive check your student did, though you are still taking a big risk to wind up under someone who doesn’t have your best interests at heart.

I don’t have much personal experience with either, since I don’t really train with sport in mind. I pretty much agree with you on all points, no surprise there.

Regards,

Robert A

130

Even if you grab an arm in guillotine it is still possible for a strong athletic opponent to “spike” you into the ground if you jump guard. On a shock absorbing mat you might be able to shake this off (or you may not, think Gray Maynard vs Robert Emerson) but on cement it’s going to be a lot worse of an impact. You are also not protected by weight classes, so you could have a lot heavier of an opponent driving the back of your head into the ground.

If you snapped them down to their hands or hands and knees first, then it is a little safer, but even then you’d better be ready to disconnect yourself fast should they start getting up to their feet because once their feet are underneath them and they have use of their arms they will lock you into them and at that point you are going for a very unpleasant ride.

131

Pulling Spider guard/foot guard can be done if you are going to strike from it immediately or sweep/joint lock if the opportunity presents itself, but you need to have good gripping skills for this and can’t waste time thinking “sportively”. Even then though this would not be what I would teach someone as a go to, especially at a beginner level.

132

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Even if you grab an arm in guillotine it is still possible for a strong athletic opponent to “spike” you into the ground if you jump guard. On a shock absorbing mat you might be able to shake this off (or you may not, think Gray Maynard vs Robert Emerson) but on cement it’s going to be a lot worse of an impact. You are also not protected by weight classes, so you could have a lot heavier of an opponent driving the back of your head into the ground.
[/quote]

Well, I am offering it more as a “less risky” point. That is damn near academic because I wouldn’t recommend it unless your name is Marcelo Garcia.

If I am tracking this correct, I am at a loss to when the guillotine would be preferable to working from a front headlock into a more legit position.

Here is a video of Mario Sperry showing a basic but workable way to drop for the arm in guillotine. I think we can agree Ze Mario has some familiarity with BJJ, “Grappling”, and Vale Tudo. We might consider it telling this demo came from his sport submission grappling videos(ADCC rules) and not Vale Tudo.

I am also going to go ahead and support your previous cautions/comments by pointing out Ze Mario worked from a front headlock rather than dropping for the choke when he faced Fabio Gurgel, who is rumored to know something about grappling.

Time 11:20

Regards,

Robert A

133

Yes, definitely telling. And even in grappling competitions you generally have weight classes and rules against slamming/spiking to protect you. Doesn’t mean it still doesn’t happen though (and if you skip to 5:24 you’ll see that even Marcelo is not immune to getting slammed):

134

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Yes, definitely telling. And even in grappling competitions you generally have weight classes and rules against slamming/spiking to protect you. Doesn’t mean it still doesn’t happen though (and if you skip to 5:24 you’ll see that even Marcelo is not immune to getting slammed):

[/quote]

Good video. A lot of the utility of certain techniques comes from the “if this is the best you have/can do” place. I think it was a different Sperry clip, for Vale Tudo, where he kept saying “And I am only here because this man is either very lucky or very good. If he didn’t know how to fight, I wouldn’t bother.”

Regards,

Robert A

135

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Yes, definitely telling. And even in grappling competitions you generally have weight classes and rules against slamming/spiking to protect you. Doesn’t mean it still doesn’t happen though[/quote]

It doesn’t even have to be intentional. At the last BJJ tournament I attended, someone jumped guard (pretty high on the torso too) and the other dude’s ACL snapped which made him slam his opponent. It was a bit surreal - I’d looked away for ten seconds and when I looked back, they were BOTH on the floor, motionless.

[quote]Robert A wrote:
A lot of the utility of certain techniques comes from the “if this is the best you have/can do” place. I think it was a different Sperry clip, for Vale Tudo, where he kept saying “And I am only here because this man is either very lucky or very good. If he didn’t know how to fight, I wouldn’t bother.”
[/quote]

This. And I think competition BJJ people have largely forgotten about it.

136

Totally agree with you guys, but that doesn’t seem to be the way these techniques are being taught. For instance Marcelo’s jump to rear guard, relatively safe if you are in a competition where the other guy is roughly the same size as you and there are rules banning them from just dropping back and using you as a crash pad, but a very dangerous thing to do if those conditions are not met.

Being someone who trains and views things from a reality standpoint, that would absolutely not be something that I would do or teach my students to do. If Marcelo did that in reality he would be lucky to get the wind knocked out of him or crack some ribs; just imagine if his back landed on the edge of a curb, or his head hit the edge of a coffe table or toilet on the way down.

You actually see jumping to rear guard all the time in MMA as well and since the two fighters are relatively the same size and are on a flat padded surface people usually get away with it. But again, the conditions encountered in an MMA fight are not necessarily going to be encountered in a combat scenario and thus while I think training in MMA can develop useful attributes and there are definitely some techniques and skill sets in MMA that are useful to a modern warrior; thinking that training in MMA will in itself prepare you for the realities of combat is misguided.

137

Have been reading this thread with interest as I am about to finally start my BJJ class.

So what is the best MA for self defence/street fight?

tweet

138

Well first, like has been stated on many “best style for SD” threads, the instructor is as important as the art. If you have the choice between training with Rickson Gracie in GJJ/BJJ or some Krav Maga instructor who took a weekend certification seminar, you are obviously better off training with Rickson. On the other hand if it’s a choice between some Blue Belt or Purple Belt BJJ instructor and a former IDF guy teaching you Krav, I would probably say Krav is better.

Then there is the issue of availability. You are only going to have so many systems to realistically choose from (unless you are independently wealthy and can just fly pretty much anywhere and afford to train with whoever you want), so just because we name some good SD systems doesn’t mean you’ll actually have access to them.

Also, the truth is that styles don’t fight, people do and while some methods of fighting are more complete and appropriate for real world self defense than others, ultimately it is you the individual that must actually perform and make the art work for you.

That said, if you want some names of fighting methods that are specifically geared towards real world combat check out:
Lysak’s Sento Method
Dynamic Combat Method
Integrated Combative Arts Training (iCAT)
Tony Blauer’s S.P.E.A.R. System/Chu Fen Do
Krav Maga
Haganah
Kelly McCann’s stuff
Jim Wagner’s stuff
Real Ninjutsu (tough to find though)
GJJ if you can find someone who still really focuses on the SD aspect and not the sport BJJ stuff

I’m obviously a little partial to the first three as I have trained with the Founders, but if you can train in any of the above with either the direct founder, first generation student, or someone with legit real life application experience then any of those are totally legit SD systems.

Finally, I would tentatively add JKD to the above list, but sadly it has become so fragmented and bogged down with politics and idol worship that it’s really a crap shoot as to whether what you will learn will be worth your time and effort. It could be good stuff or it could be pretty much sloppy kickboxing and BJJ with some JKD principles mixed in.

139

[quote]theBird wrote:
Have been reading this thread with interest as I am about to finally start my BJJ class.

So what is the best MA for self defence/street fight?

tweet[/quote]

It’s a famous question but it has no real answer - especially because “fighting” and “self-defense” are very different terms that are often used interchangeably.

As far as fighting goes, well, like Sento said, it depends on your teacher. If you learn Goju-ryu from Loren Christensen, it’s probably going to be effective. If you learn it from some jerkoff at your corner dojo, it’s probably not going to be. Like Sento said, it really depends on the teacher you’ve got, and while many of them have their own merits, unless you find a teacher that really cuts away all the bullshit and focuses on real application, you’ll probably just be learning a fancy form of dance.

This is the reason that, unless you have access to a very good teacher, I suggest either going with one of the systems developed by one of the guys on Sento’s list or finding a good boxing or muay thai gym - they’ll teach you how to fight, and the self-defense end you can fill in on your own.

140

When I was a 180lbs bjj bluebelt I was grabbed from behind and thrown to the ground by a 300lbs guy. I was able to use my bjj skills to nullify his attack & take his back, the fight was stopped by people at the party after that.