Jay Schroeder Program

[quote]Eastern boy wrote:
cccp21 wrote:
rmccart1 wrote:
cccp, if it’s not too much trouble, would you care to list a workout or two that you performed while you were with him? I understand that the key to his success is his intelligent planning and programming, and not in the individual sessions per se, but I am interested in seeing what types of things he does to target certain abilities.

Sure. I don’t have time to post any of his old programs and doing so might not help anyone specifically. The principles are what is most important. First you must be able to ABSORB force(plyo drills,catching loads etc.)!Second you must have sufficent SPEED to produce force
(45-80% of 1rm fast)Third you must express force in terms of MAX EFFORT(90% plus of 1rm).

When you overtrain 1 trait such as max effort by 1-3% you can now train for speed(really strength-speed or speed-strength as defined by Soviets)for a period while max effort abilities rest. In turn when stength-speed declines by 1-3% you can go back to max effort and overtrain it again(or force absorption).

All effort has to be at 93% of max or higher or you stop training that trait in that exercise for that day. There is more but it would take me longer to explain.
Brandon

Tnx for your reply Brandon!

Some questions:

  1. when you wrote “When you overtrain 1 trait such as max effort by 1-3% you can now train for speed and so on” do it means that after 3 (4 o 5)days your weight is decreased by 1-3%? If you use 100 kg for an exercise, after few days you exercise is 97-99 kg?

  2. When do you keep each phase? (absorbtion, speed and then maximal force).

  3. The program what you used is similar to this?

A) extreme slow, holding as long as is possible continuing to hold while lowering

B) Rebound Repetitions - release yourself or the load from the starting position then chase to the point of catching the load or stopping the limb or body from dropping as powerfully as possible and as fast as one can return to the starting position

C) Altitude Drop and hold - like B but no reaction out, a 10 second contraction at the bottom

  1. wall squat 2. front lunge 3. standing supported leg extension 4. lying leg curl 5. wall push off 6. front raise 7. upright row 8. bicep curl

go A, A, A, day off, B, B, B, 2 days off, C, C, C, 2 days off, repeat cycle

  1. What do you think of this planning? Is it exact?

1 phase: extreme iso

2 phase: iso + absorbing

3 phase: iso + absorbing + rebound

4 phase: iso + absorbing + rebound + light ME (max 80% of 1RM -i.e.: iso-dyn e gli ecc-dyn)

5 phase: iso + absorbing + rebound + hard ME (85-90%) + manual overspeed

What do you think? Is it exact?

[/quote]
First off there are better exercices than others.Jay uses what maybe 20 exercices?Maybe less. His variety come from the methodics he uses. I feel this is acutally a weakness but i digress. Think of your genetic predisposition and compare this to what you want your body to end up doing. Advancement comes from working on your individual weaknesses as they appear as you progress.

Do you ever stop working on max strength? But as you progress the methods might need to be more intense. In addition Plyos increase max strength as well or can be used as a potentiator. The template you describe can actually be an individual.

But all training is specific to an individual at different stages of what the Soviets labled as PASM. In addition what an individual can do and what he needs on a given day can be determined by devices such as the Omega wave.

In the Ussr there were over 100 such devices to measure work capacity. Think of all means amd methods known to man and rank them according to specificity and intensity and don’t forget variety(Bondarchuk).
Brandon

[quote]cccp21 wrote:

When a paticular trait overtrains then i work on another till i can train that trait again. If i train a trait for 40 sessions then it is mine to keep for awhile. Think of producing force,producing it fast and then producing it over an extended range of motion.Also speed work(stength-speed)helps to accelerate recovery.
Brandon

[/quote]

This is interesting

Sounds kinda like the long term delayed training effect. Meaning if you train say ME for 40 sessions in 8 weeks until you hit the “overtraining” then the compensatory cycle should last you 8 weeks.

Or you should be fully recovered in 8 weeks. This leaves you two months to train another trait which should capitalize on the gains from the ME cycle. So if you hit explosive strength (ES) afterwards the ME should be improving/recovering during the ES cycle which would in actuality be improving your ES during the ES cycle. Kinda like making 1+1=3

Now perhaps you overtrain explosive strength for 1 month and then hit up your sport skills the following month. During the sport skill month your max strength and explosive strength should be peaking simultaneously during your sport skill month. At the end of the sport skill month you would have acheived a 1+1+1=6 effect (essentially turning into 1+2+3=6)

Brandon, is this on track or way off base?

Even if it’s off base your insight from schroeder’s and your individual perspective are appreciated.

I;m also guessing that drop offs (93%) are used to determine when overtraining a trait is reached and hence that specific quality is to be stop being trained.

Thanks for the help and feel free to rip a hole in my post Brandon

What’s the protocol for attaining a drop-off? Do you train say, 4 days per week until your baseline level has dropped, or every day, or what?

Me thinks that you train a trait like ME until speed slows by 7% (93%) in a session, then you continue do do so frequently. So you bench 90% of your 1rm until your bar speed slows by 7%

I think you’d hit it at least 4x/week or until you cannot hit 91-97% of your peak strength point at the FIRST set of your workout. This would represent 1-3% over training. Not sure but you may test your first set for a couple of days to ensure the overtraining is chronic and not acute (you drank too much the night before)

At this point you’d know you had overtrained by 1-3% and switch traits

Brandon?

So for instance, let’s continue with the bench press. Say I went in and my best effort was a single with 250 at 0.2 meters/second on the first day of training. Would I use this initial best effort, essentially my PR, to base my calculations on?

Yes unless you set a new PR and then those numbers would set the calculations.

Again this is my best guess. I;m sure Brandon could help more

[quote]squattin600 wrote:
cccp21 wrote:

When a paticular trait overtrains then i work on another till i can train that trait again. If i train a trait for 40 sessions then it is mine to keep for awhile. Think of producing force,producing it fast and then producing it over an extended range of motion.Also speed work(stength-speed)helps to accelerate recovery.
Brandon

This is interesting

Sounds kinda like the long term delayed training effect. Meaning if you train say ME for 40 sessions in 8 weeks until you hit the “overtraining” then the compensatory cycle should last you 8 weeks.

Or you should be fully recovered in 8 weeks. This leaves you two months to train another trait which should capitalize on the gains from the ME cycle. So if you hit explosive strength (ES) afterwards the ME should be improving/recovering during the ES cycle which would in actuality be improving your ES during the ES cycle. Kinda like making 1+1=3

Now perhaps you overtrain explosive strength for 1 month and then hit up your sport skills the following month. During the sport skill month your max strength and explosive strength should be peaking simultaneously during your sport skill month.

At the end of the sport skill month you would have acheived a 1+1+1=6 effect (essentially turning into 1+2+3=6)

Brandon, is this on track or way off base?

Even if it’s off base your insight from schroeder’s and your individual perspective are appreciated.

I;m also guessing that drop offs (93%) are used to determine when overtraining a trait is reached and hence that specific quality is to be stop being trained.

Thanks for the help and feel free to rip a hole in my post Brandon[/quote]
Yes bar speed was used to determine what an individual can do on a given day in a given exercise (think Prelepins table).

Overtraining was much more short term (meaning that you over trained a trait in 1-3 days and allowed lets say 7 days rest FOR THAT TRAIT).You train a trait like this manner for 40 days and it’s YOURS(for awhile).Overtraining is both general(taping test) and specific(lack of performance in a given exercise with a given load).
Brandon

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
What’s the protocol for attaining a drop-off? Do you train say, 4 days per week until your baseline level has dropped, or every day, or what?[/quote]

Lack of barspeed in a given exercise with a given load. Also watch for a drop in standing broad jump or taping test or morning heart rate or hand dynamometer strength.
Brandon

[quote]rmccart1 wrote:
He probably carries it a bit further than powerlifters do. I believe he times lifts, and in some cases only allows more weight to be used when a load can be lifted in a certain amount of time. For a power athlete like a football player, a 600 pound squat is next to useless if it takes 8 seconds to complete the lift.[/quote]
yes lifts were timed. now you have the tendo units right?
Brandon

Thank you very much cccp, that’s very interesting. I’m sure this planned overreaching is only for more advanced athletes, correct?

Three questions Brandon:

  1. The drop-off is 7% IN the session and 1-3% BETWEEN the session?
    I.e. After X sets of bench press my performance drop off of 7% and I stop to train bench.
    After X day of this type of training, my performance is drop of 1-3% and I stop to train this traits.
    Is it exact?

  2. What do you think of this type of test for determining athlete’s lack?

Magnitude/Duration Test 1: Have the athlete establish a maximal MIO rep in the exercise you want to test. Then have the athlete establish a maximal PIM rep in the same exercise. If the PIM lift is less than 12% higher than the MIO lift then the athlete needs a higher concentration of reactive work. If the PIM lift is greater than 12% more than the MIO lift then the athlete needs more duration work. This test only applies to strength athletes.

Magnitude/Duration Test 2: Have the athlete establish a maximal PIM in either the squat, bench press, or deadlift and time the lift in its entirety. If the athlete takes <3.5 seconds to complete the lift he is MAG dominant and needs more DUR work. If the athlete takes >5.5 seconds to complete the lift he is DUR dominant and needs more MAG work. If the athlete takes between 3.5-5.5 seconds he is balanced and needs a balanced approach. This test only applies to strength athletes.

  1. If I clock my lift is very difficult establish a drop off of 7% because is a very small fraction of time. Any suggestion?

Brandon: East is using innosport terminology.

If you are unfamiliar with it

PIM= Normal Reps
MIO= concentric (starting with the bar on pins, etc…)
DUR= Strength work either ME or RE methods
MAG= power work, either DE method a la westside, drop and catch, altitude drops, depth jumps etc…

Ryan P. McCarter,

Lol off topic but who is that in your avatar? She’s fantastic.

[quote]rudilerm wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter,

Lol off topic but who is that in your avatar? She’s fantastic.[/quote]

I agree!
Brandon

[quote]Eastern boy wrote:
Three questions Brandon:

  1. The drop-off is 7% IN the session and 1-3% BETWEEN the session?
    I.e. After X sets of bench press my performance drop off of 7% and I stop to train bench.
    After X day of this type of training, my performance is drop of 1-3% and I stop to train this traits.
    Is it exact?

  2. What do you think of this type of test for determining athlete’s lack?

Magnitude/Duration Test 1: Have the athlete establish a maximal MIO rep in the exercise you want to test. Then have the athlete establish a maximal PIM rep in the same exercise. If the PIM lift is less than 12% higher than the MIO lift then the athlete needs a higher concentration of reactive work. If the PIM lift is greater than 12% more than the MIO lift then the athlete needs more duration work. This test only applies to strength athletes.

Magnitude/Duration Test 2: Have the athlete establish a maximal PIM in either the squat, bench press, or deadlift and time the lift in its entirety. If the athlete takes <3.5 seconds to complete the lift he is MAG dominant and needs more DUR work. If the athlete takes >5.5 seconds to complete the lift he is DUR dominant and needs more MAG work. If the athlete takes between 3.5-5.5 seconds he is balanced and needs a balanced approach. This test only applies to strength athletes.

  1. If I clock my lift is very difficult establish a drop off of 7% because is a very small fraction of time. Any suggestion?
    [/quote]

will answer tommorow. too busy today.
Brandon

[quote]cccp21 wrote:

will answer tommorow. too busy today.
Brandon
[/quote]

Ok Brandon!!! No problem! :wink:

[quote]rudilerm wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter,

Lol off topic but who is that in your avatar? She’s fantastic.[/quote]

The only name I’ve been able to find is Pree. I found her on the Eye Candy Modeling site.

[quote]cccp21 wrote:
Eastern boy wrote:
Three questions Brandon:

  1. The drop-off is 7% IN the session and 1-3% BETWEEN the session?
    I.e. After X sets of bench press my performance drop off of 7% and I stop to train bench.
    After X day of this type of training, my performance is drop of 1-3% and I stop to train this traits.
    Is it exact?

  2. What do you think of this type of test for determining athlete’s lack?

Magnitude/Duration Test 1: Have the athlete establish a maximal MIO rep in the exercise you want to test. Then have the athlete establish a maximal PIM rep in the same exercise. If the PIM lift is less than 12% higher than the MIO lift then the athlete needs a higher concentration of reactive work.

If the PIM lift is greater than 12% more than the MIO lift then the athlete needs more duration work. This test only applies to strength athletes.

Magnitude/Duration Test 2: Have the athlete establish a maximal PIM in either the squat, bench press, or deadlift and time the lift in its entirety. If the athlete takes <3.5 seconds to complete the lift he is MAG dominant and needs more DUR work.

If the athlete takes >5.5 seconds to complete the lift he is DUR dominant and needs more MAG work. If the athlete takes between 3.5-5.5 seconds he is balanced and needs a balanced approach. This test only applies to strength athletes.

  1. If I clock my lift is very difficult establish a drop off of 7% because is a very small fraction of time. Any suggestion?

will answer tommorow. too busy today.
Brandon
[/quote]
Answer to que 1 is correct to the best of my knowledge.
Answer to que 2 is that i don’t know. i do know that if the max in the bench press takes longer than 2 seconds then
you need more speed. I imagine in the squat the cutt off might be 3 seconds(depends on the distance travelled).
answer to 3 is the tendo unit. look up tendo unit on Elitefts.com
Brandon Green

[quote]cccp21 wrote:
Answer to que 1 is correct to the best of my knowledge.
Answer to que 2 is that i don’t know. i do know that if the max in the bench press takes longer than 2 seconds then
you need more speed. I imagine in the squat the cutt off might be 3 seconds(depends on the distance travelled).
answer to 3 is the tendo unit. look up tendo unit on Elitefts.com
Brandon Green
[/quote]

Answer 1. Ok!

Answer 2. 2-3 seconds for complete all lift or only for concentric portion? I need much work on speed! MUCH!
My bench and squat takes longer that 6 seconds!!

Answer 3. I know tendo unit, but it cost too much… :frowning:

Last question: When you worked with rebound and adsorbing method (adsorbing exercises with weight), how much reps used on the average?

TNX!

[quote]Eastern boy wrote:
cccp21 wrote:
Answer to que 1 is correct to the best of my knowledge.
Answer to que 2 is that i don’t know. i do know that if the max in the bench press takes longer than 2 seconds then you need more speed. I imagine in the squat the cutt off might be 3 seconds(depends on the distance travelled).
answer to 3 is the tendo unit. look up tendo unit on Elitefts.com
Brandon Green

Answer 1. Ok!

Answer 2. 2-3 seconds for complete all lift or only for concentric portion? I need much work on speed! MUCH!
My bench and squat takes longer that 6 seconds!!

Answer 3. I know tendo unit, but it cost too much… :frowning:

Last question: When you worked with rebound and adsorbing method (adsorbing exercises with weight), how much reps used on the average?

TNX!
[/quote]
answer to last question-Everything from 1 rep to 1 MINUTE of reps!
Brandon