Jade Helm - US Military Operating Within the US

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I respect that this is your opinion and you’re certainly entitled to it. I will respectfully bow out of your thread.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
USMC, I do not fear the US army invading Texas, bro. I fear that our special forces are being trained to round up people who have the audacity to speak out against our government. This is a pretext for such training. If someone is labeled a “terrorist” or a member of a “terrorist cell”, I don’t think any member of the armed forces would think twice about detaining them. It started with the Patriot act, and has continued on with several other executive orders under obama. I’ve linked them before, I’m too tired to right now. It basically gives him power to declare martial law any time he wants to, and now our military is practicing on American soil to round up American citizens.

I’ll be the first to say that I’m a little on the ‘fringe’ with my political beliefs. But I don’t subscribe to 911 conspiracies or anything like that. However, if the US has no plans for martial law, WHY ARE THEY PRACTICING? If you don’t think we are a black swan event away from some serious turmoil then you are kidding yourself.

Look at history. There is nothing new under the sun. These things happen quite frequently and the common denominator is this: the people caught unaware swore that it could never happen here… I would LOVE to think that were true. I would love to think that my kids are going to grow in a nice safe place with rainbows and sugarplums and that the debt/deficit will magically disappear, racial tensions will go away and progressive policies would be exposed for the bullshit that they are. But then I snap out of it. I realize that the federal government exist for one thing and one thing only: to support and protect ITSELF and the interests it is beholden to. And that’s not you or me.

If you guys want to blow this off as nothing at all and talk about entitlements vs military spending, knock your self out. But start your own fucking thread about it, and stop hijacking mine before it even gets off the ground. This thread is about how you feel about the United States military operating on US soil, doing a training exercise designed to subdue AMERICANS. If that’s not political or world issuey enough for you, then let it die. But don’t disrespect me by dismissing it and just changing the subject three posts in. Start your own thread for that.[/quote]

[/quote]
I don’t want to kick you out of the thread, bro! Challenge my ideas! That’s why I posted them, because I WANT to be told I’m a fucking dumbass, and here’s why: XYZ. I totally respect your opinion and really want to hear it.

All I was trying to say (at 11:00 at night tired as fuck) is if you want to talk about fiscal policy, start a thread about fiscal policy. Just don’t derail MY thread about ABC idea the third post in and change the subject.

I know threads tend to change subjects and evolve, but that usually happens at least a page or two in after a few opinions the OP have been expressed - after the incubation period has “expired”, which is no harm no foul. Just let it take off a bit before the derail, that’s all.[/quote]

I tell ya what, I’ll give you my point of view as a relatively young veteran and FWIW I think it’s important to question what our government is doing.

  1. High level: There are something like a million active duty service members across all branches and like 2-3 million in total, iirc. A large percentage of these folks are pencil pushers not trigger pullers. Marines have a moto, “Every Marine is a rifleman.” It’s true, we’re all trained riflemen, but a lot of the pencil pushers (I was an aviation supply accountant…) would be useless in a conflict let alone a war. I had Sergeants that failed a relatively easy rifle range certification because, quite frankly, they should have never “earned” a uniform. If I’m not mistaken we’re the only branch where everyone trains on a basic weapon system (M16A2). So that 2-3 million is really less, imo, and that’s assuming the reservist would actually show up.

That said, there are some 300+ million Americans many of which are armed and all of which would be fighting for their homes and families. That alone is a pretty big check to government power.

Not to mention the Navy would be relatively useless against the vast majority of America (Other than the East and West coasts and the Gulf states).

Not to mention we could pretty easily fuck up military supply lines while being able to cross into Mexico and Canada almost effortlessly for our own aide.

To re-iterate I am 100% convinced a lot if not the vast majority of service members would not fight Americans on American soil. I don’t believe military leaders would follow an order to do so from the CIC and I don’t believe personnel from Privates to Generals would follow an order to do so from higher command. I just don’t see it happening short of Civil War part II in which case the military would be splintered anyway.

  1. U.S. military personnel train almost exclusively on American soil. Every boot camp is in the continental United States. We fly sorties over U.S. soil all the time. I was stationed at MCAS Beaufort, S.C. where hundreds of flight hours were logged all over the southerner portion of South Carolina & Georgia. When I went through combat training we literally practiced clearing full scale towns built on Camp Lejune. This training taking place on U.S. soil really isn’t that surprising or unnerving to me.

  2. You’re concerned the spec op community will be used against U.S. citizens. The concern is noted; however, again these are Americans that take their oath very seriously.

“I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”

Do you think Marcus Luttrell would roll into Dallas and capture an American citizen? Do you think the late Chris Kyle would of done the same? There is no way it would happen. No way.

I believe this is simply a new training protocol that fits our updated outlook on warfare. It will train our spec ops community to take HVT’s quickly and effectively in places like Iran, Pakistan, Syria, North Korea, etc…

You and I, we agree on a lot of things. The militarization of the police is out of control. Small town U.S.A does not need a SWAT team. The blatant infringement of the 4th amendment during the Boston marathon bombing is unacceptable in my book.

That said, based on what you’ve written in here and in the past, it comes across to me like you view the U.S. military as just another tool of an intrusive government. My perspective, probably because I served, is that the military is made up of American just like you and me. Just like everyone on T-Nation really. Some are asshole, some are idiots, some are in terrible shape, but some are very intelligent, some are highly patriotic, some are gun tooting constitutionalists, etc… Imo, the might of the U.S. military is only as good as the men and women operating the various weapons systems. An F-18, an Apache, and an M16A2 all have to be operated by us.

The government would have to convince Americans in uniform to go against everything it is to be an American and I just don’t see it happening.

[/quote]

Not if they don’t use US troops to do it. The obama administration contracted Academi (formerly XE, formerly Blackwater) to work for the CIA (250 million) as well as to provide security for the State Department (via an Academi subsidiary) for 92 million. In 2014 Academi was bought by the Constellis Holdings (along with Triple Canopy, Strategic Social, Tidewater, NSPS, IDS and several other international security companies. They are all now controlled by one entity… Founded by former Delta Force members. They are all essentially mercenaries.

I wonder if any of these groups are “unofficially” taking part in Jade Helm?

I’ve found a few conspiracy links, but nothing that you people would consider a “legitimate” source.
[/quote]

AC and usmc, have you ever read James Wesley Rawles “Collapse” series?

62

This thread is only about a month late: http://weaponsman.com/?p=21562

63

Jade Helm 15 was simply a counterinsurgency field training exercise that was the rough COIN equivalent of The People’s Republic of Pineland exercise that potential Army Special Forces soldiers (Green Berets) must complete during the Special Forces Qualification Course. During Pineland, aspiring Snake-eaters must work with fictional guerrilla groups in rural North Carolina in a campaign against autocratic government forces. Are you going to accuse Army SF of conducting exercises in preparation to overthrow a Republican administration if one comes into power this next election cycle?

64

[quote]theuofh wrote:
This thread is only about a month late: http://weaponsman.com/?p=21562 [/quote]

Really? Did you read the comments? Found this little gem…

https://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2015/03/24/bracken-operation-jade-conditioning/

Operation Jade Conditioning

First, letâ??s cover what Joint Military Exercise Jade Helm 15 is not: it is not a covert plan for the military to conquer the Southwest and institute martial law. And no, the hundreds of special operations troops and thousands of other military personnel taking part in Jade Helm 15 are not bad guys who are out to establish tyranny in America. Those are straw man arguments, posited to be rejected.

But the elimination of the straw men does not mean that Jade Helm 15 is benign. Reality check, please: does anybody reading this seriously believe that President Obama is contemplating dropping thousands of American troops across an area as vast as the space covered by Syria, Iraq, Iran, Yemen and Egypt? If you believe that, then I will give you a special discount when you buy any two of the eleven New York metro area bridges and tunnels that I currently own.

Many will say, â??But the Green Berets have been doing this kind of thing with exercises like Robin Sage for years and years. Itâ??s exactly the same thing. Itâ??s no big deal.â?? These people are either paid shills, or well-meaning but na�¯ve dupes. Note the motto of Jade Helm 15: â??Master the human domain.â?? From our military to our intelligence agencies to federal law enforcement, Social Network Analysis is a booming field, a field which is now stretched to include imposters and liars paid by the post to influence social media trends. This government-sponsored social media influencing begins in the understandable realm of legitimate foreign counter-terrorism, but today the all-seeing eye is increasingly aimed inward at perceived domestic threats.

FTX Robin Sage and similar legitimate exercises typically take place across a few counties and involve coordination at the sheriff and state police level. The volunteer role-players are often old Special Forces guys or local farmers. One of them that I know was a decorated MACV/SOG hero who for years after his retirement played a mysterious guerrilla chieftain for the newbie Q-coursers. And in a younger age, I ran with a crowd that that pretended to blow up radio towers, bridges and fuel dumps with simulated demolition charges. We also did cross-country movements and escape and evasion training exercises in and out of uniform with a variety of weapons. This was done with the knowledge of the local authorities, to avoid people getting shot due to misidentification when crossing public and private spaces.

But Robin Sage and other training exercises were never scaled up to become regional show-stopping extravaganzas spread across six large Western states, requiring real-time coordination between multiple governors, state police departments, county and city law enforcement jurisdictions, federal law enforcement agencies, and active duty military units from all branches of the service. No, Jade Helm is not Robin Sage. Itâ??s not even Robin Sage on steroids.

Will there be Robin Sage elements to Jade Helm? Of course. Embedded reporters will no doubt be sending back live video, visually establishing the overtly benign and beneficial impact of the exercise as Green Berets and SEALs freefall and fast-rope into their insertion points. An analysis of some of the information gleaned from the Jade Helm 15 informational packet suggests that some of the spec-ops troops will participate in cross-country movements of greater than fifty miles, humping rifles and rucks from Texas into New Mexico among other land routes. But that camo-paint and boot-leather Robin Sage visual is just camouflage for the genuine objectives of Jade Helm 15, which in my opinion are twofold:

First: conditioning Americans to accept increasingly frequent and intrusive military and paramilitary police actions up close and personal. These will include low-altitude over-flights by military aircraft at all hours, plus roadblocks, checkpoints and denied out-of-bounds areas declared during so-called â??realistic military training exercisesâ?? in and around Anytown, USA. Some of the military participants might be dressed as civilians, or even as enemy terroristsâ??foreign or domestic. That is to say, the troops will not necessarily be identifiable to John Q. Public as good old G.I. Joe. Instead, they might be dressed up like Jihad John, or even Redneck Jake. We will be told to mind our business, stay indoors, and trust those in authority who can see â??the big picture.â??

â??Hey Martha, whatâ??s all that noise and commotion? It sounds like World War Three is breaking out across the highway downtown!â??

â??Oh, donâ??t worry, George. The Army is just doing another urban warfare drill. I saw it on TV.â??

Google keywords like â??military drill training exercise urban warfare helicoptersâ?? and see how many of our cities have already been treated to simulated â??Black Hawk Downâ?? battles, complete with booming explosions, midnight helicopters swooping at rooftop level, and plenty of ratatat-tat. Step by step we are being conditioned to living in a battlefield state of mind. Full dress rehearsals for all-out urban warfare are becoming the new normal in the Land of the Free.

To what purpose? Well, to what purpose does the chef slowly turn up the heat under the frog pot? If and when the time comes that the federal government decides to eliminate some pesky nests of sedition in the name of national security, folks living just a few miles away will simply yawn and change television channels, placid as cows chewing cud. Operation Jade Conditioning: mission accomplished.

The second objective of Joint Military Exercise Jade Helm 15 is to practice simultaneously operating all of the control levers of armed federal power on American soil, from major military units and federal law enforcement agencies down to the state police and local law enforcement. (Posse Comitatus? Heavens, no. Itâ??s just a training exercise!)

When the time comes to eliminate those pockets of bitterly-clinging dead-enders standing in the way of social progress that Team Obama seems to hate with far greater vigor than it hates the Islamic State or Al Qaeda, the federal bosses will already know which county sheriffs and chiefs of police are â??reliable.â?? That is, reliable in the KGB or Stasi meaning of the world. Click your heels, Sheriff, and set up the roadblocks as instructed. Itâ??s a federal order! Do it just like we did it last year.

Again, itâ??s Operation Jade Conditioning. Ditto for our generals being conditioned to take orders from civilian bureaucrats for military deployments directly into American cities and towns.

Thatâ??s my opinion. Or, you can choose to believe that President Obama is actually getting our military primed and ready for simultaneous spec-ops team insertions across the entire Middle East from Egypt to Iran, and Syria to Yemen, the same geographical area covered by Joint Military Exercise Jade Helm 15.

Itâ??s your choice to believe that, if you wish.

65

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

AC and usmc, have you ever read James Wesley Rawles “Collapse” series?

No, I have not. I’ve heard about it and I’ve read some of JWR’s articles and surfed around his website a bit, but I’m not very impressed with his thought process or analysis.

66

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Jade Helm 15 was simply a counterinsurgency field training exercise that was the rough COIN equivalent of The People’s Republic of Pineland exercise that potential Army Special Forces soldiers (Green Berets) must complete during the Special Forces Qualification Course. During Pineland, aspiring Snake-eaters must work with fictional guerrilla groups in rural North Carolina in a campaign against autocratic government forces. Are you going to accuse Army SF of conducting exercises in preparation to overthrow a Republican administration if one comes into power this next election cycle?[/quote]

NO. I am saying that I believe it is a pretext. For what, I can only guess. But an operation this big is hiding something.

EVERYTHING that the Obama administration does or touches has a political agenda and requires lies and spinning. This guy can’t take a shit in the morning with out figuring out how to undermine our civil rights or use an Executive Branch three letter agency to bully, intimidate or unconstitutionally violate the law SOMEHOW. From his increasing data collection and drone strikes, to the IRS scandal, to secretly dealing with Iran behind our backs, to Benghazi, to spying on the AP, to attacking James Rosen via the Justice Dept., to the Fast and the Furious and Project Gunrunner, to blatantly lying to the American public (“you can keep your doctor”), to playing politics with the military by firing generals and waging war based on politics and not strategy, to failing to follow up with the VA scandal, to funding opposition of our allies while claiming to not want to “influence” elections, to releasing 5 terrorists without notifying congress for a deserter, to Directive 20, to making recess appointments while congress was in session, to the National Defense Authorization Acts of 2012 and 2013 which lowed the bar to suspend habeas corpus, to Operation Choke Point attacking gun sellers and the coal industry, to paying off Kathleen Sebelius, to manipulating Solyndra, to the EPA administrator using false names to avoid scrutiny, to failing to prosecute the Black Panthers for voter intimidation, to his illegal “executive orders”, to hacking Sheryl Attkisson’s, to bullying other members of the press, to arresting Americans as political prisoners, to firing “inconvenient” inspector generals, to influence peddling, to assassinating American Citizens with out trial, and the countless other things that I’m too tired to list.

The above is our President’s record. Everything he does is either eroding the rights of average Americans or lowering the bar to violate our rights under the pretext of “protecting us against terrorism”. He has not done a SINGLE FUCKING THING to strengthen our rights or increase our protections. He has only taken actions to make us and our Constitution weaker. Given that overwhelming history of moving us AWAY from greater freedom and liberty, I can only assume this is more of the same.

67

I haven’t heard of James Wesley, MattyG35.

68

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Jade Helm 15 was simply a counterinsurgency field training exercise that was the rough COIN equivalent of The People’s Republic of Pineland exercise that potential Army Special Forces soldiers (Green Berets) must complete during the Special Forces Qualification Course. During Pineland, aspiring Snake-eaters must work with fictional guerrilla groups in rural North Carolina in a campaign against autocratic government forces. Are you going to accuse Army SF of conducting exercises in preparation to overthrow a Republican administration if one comes into power this next election cycle?[/quote]

See, this is along the lines of what I thought was most likely happening. It’s well known our SF (Army) and SOF/SOCOM boys train Stateside on numerous things like that. It’s been that way for decades.

What bothers me is the civilian detainees thing. I’m perfectly willing to accept that there can be a legitimate purpose for that–and I will openly admit that I haven’t bothered to follow up on this story’s details because I’m busy at the lab. But that part bothers me extensively because nothing I can think of off the top of my head is anywhere necessary…unless as I said above it is a ‘liberation’ operation planning for prisoners we want to get out. You follow?

70

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Military spending is like 5% of GDP…[/quote]

What does it look like in comparison to other countries?

This says 20 percent of the U.S. budget was spent on it in 2011.

Like I said massive amounts of tax dollars. And some of it is going to war games against U.S. states apparently. [/quote]

Budget and GDP are not the same thing and why should I care what other countries are spending on their military?

Military spending can and should be looked at, but it is small potatoes compared to Social Security, Medicare, & Medicaid while actually being authorized by the Constitution. . [/quote]

Yep, buying votes through entitlements is most of the budget. however I would say that a standing army isn’t in any way authorized by the constitution. That was the first of many extra-constitutional expansions of the Executive Branch’s military authority.

72

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Military spending is like 5% of GDP…[/quote]

What does it look like in comparison to other countries?

This says 20 percent of the U.S. budget was spent on it in 2011.

Like I said massive amounts of tax dollars. And some of it is going to war games against U.S. states apparently. [/quote]

Budget and GDP are not the same thing and why should I care what other countries are spending on their military?

Military spending can and should be looked at, but it is small potatoes compared to Social Security, Medicare, & Medicaid while actually being authorized by the Constitution. . [/quote]

Yep, buying votes through entitlements is most of the budget. however I would say that a standing army isn’t in any way authorized by the constitution. That was the first of many extra-constitutional expansions of the Executive Branch’s military authority.[/quote]

lol

73

I’ll be honest- I’d be VERY surprised if U.S. soldiers actually decided to take part in a hostile take-over of the U.S. as ordered by the President.

It’s not like they’re mindless automatons or something.

74

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Military spending is like 5% of GDP…[/quote]

What does it look like in comparison to other countries?

This says 20 percent of the U.S. budget was spent on it in 2011.

Like I said massive amounts of tax dollars. And some of it is going to war games against U.S. states apparently. [/quote]

Budget and GDP are not the same thing and why should I care what other countries are spending on their military?

Military spending can and should be looked at, but it is small potatoes compared to Social Security, Medicare, & Medicaid while actually being authorized by the Constitution. . [/quote]

Yep, buying votes through entitlements is most of the budget. however I would say that a standing army isn’t in any way authorized by the constitution. That was the first of many extra-constitutional expansions of the Executive Branch’s military authority.[/quote]

You’re incorrect. ARTICLE I, SECTION 8, CLAUSE 12 of the Constitution provisions that
“The Congress shall have Power To …raise and support Armies”

The Constitutional Convention accepted the need for a standing army but sought to maintain control by the appropriations power of Congress, which the Founders viewed as the branch of government closest to the people.

During the Pennsylvania ratifying convention, James Wilson argued that “the power of raising and keeping up an army, in time of peace, is essential to every government. No government can secure its citizens against dangers, internal and external, without possessing it, and sometimes carrying it into execution.” In The Federalist No. 23, Hamilton argued, “These powers [of the federal government to provide for the common defense] ought to exist without limitation: because it is impossible to foresee or define the extent or variety of national exigencies, or the correspondent extent & variety of the means which may be necessary to satisfy them.”

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[quote]angry chicken wrote:

The Federal Government deems gun owners, veterans, constitutionalists, christians, and pretty much anyone who loves freedom as “dangerous” and “potential domestic terrorists”. Napolitano stands by controversial report - Washington Times There’s been an escalation in the militarization of police forces, government agencies (controlled by the Executive branch) stockpiling ammunition and supplies. Police brutality is on the rise. And now, the largest public military exercise EVER (Jade Helm 15) is taking place. Military and police training to combat civil disobedience.

The 8 week “exercise” is that they are declaring Texas and Utah as “hostile states” and are going to take them back militarily, with covert operations and intelligence gathering (i.e. SPYING on citizens and encouraging 1984 like behavior). Nine states are participating.

Not only are they using Special Operational Forces, but they are also using JPRA (Joint Personnel Recovery Agency). JPRA maintains a series of schools who’s specialties include: Prisoners of War, hostages and DETAINEES (emphasis added), evasion and escape, search and rescue, prison survival techniques, geography and cartography, natural science, ethnology and country studies, terrorism, military and naval science, natural and emergency medicine.

To the average person, the use of the term “detainee” would not raise an eyebrow, but to someone who is in tune with the connotations and denotations of military parlance, the term “detainee” holds a very specific meaning, to include incarceration of political prisoners (e.g. dissenters aka enemy combatants aka terrorists aka anyone the STATE points a finger at) with no due process.

Bottom line is the US military is being run through a HUGE game scenario where the battle is on US soil and the “enemy” is US…

Does this make anyone else a wee bit uncomfortable?

[/quote]

I have been a wee bit uncomfortable since January 20, 2009.

76

[quote]pat wrote:
I have been a wee bit uncomfortable since January 20, 2009.[/quote]

You were comfortable under Patriot Act W, but not Obama?

Obama has simply been a continuation of the same government encroachments under the guise of “fighting terrorism” and “if you have nothing to hide don’t worry.”

Whoever wins in 2016 will undoubtedly carry on the torch of Bush and Obama.

I would say the biggest disappointment of President Obama has been he ran on doing things opposite of his predecessor and then decided to be the same guy or a more advanced version of him.

77

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Jade Helm 15 was simply a counterinsurgency field training exercise that was the rough COIN equivalent of The People’s Republic of Pineland exercise that potential Army Special Forces soldiers (Green Berets) must complete during the Special Forces Qualification Course. During Pineland, aspiring Snake-eaters must work with fictional guerrilla groups in rural North Carolina in a campaign against autocratic government forces. Are you going to accuse Army SF of conducting exercises in preparation to overthrow a Republican administration if one comes into power this next election cycle?[/quote]

See, this is along the lines of what I thought was most likely happening. It’s well known our SF (Army) and SOF/SOCOM boys train Stateside on numerous things like that. It’s been that way for decades.

What bothers me is the civilian detainees thing. I’m perfectly willing to accept that there can be a legitimate purpose for that–and I will openly admit that I haven’t bothered to follow up on this story’s details because I’m busy at the lab. But that part bothers me extensively because nothing I can think of off the top of my head is anywhere necessary…unless as I said above it is a ‘liberation’ operation planning for prisoners we want to get out. You follow?[/quote]

But we all know how this president get’s back POW’s - He give up five high level terrorists for each one of ours (behind our backs, and without the approval of congress)

78

[quote]magick wrote:
I’ll be honest- I’d be VERY surprised if U.S. soldiers actually decided to take part in a hostile take-over of the U.S. as ordered by the President.

It’s not like they’re mindless automatons or something.[/quote]

I highly doubt it too, I’m sure there would be SOME, but not a majority. My guess is he’ll use mercenaries. Academi (formerly Blackwater) already has a 250mil contract with the CIA and their subsidiary has nearly a 100mil contract with the State Dept. This year, many of the world’s top “para military” companies (all headquartered in Northern VA, coincidentally) have been purchased by the same holding company. Didn’t even make the news.

79

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
I have been a wee bit uncomfortable since January 20, 2009.[/quote]

You were comfortable under Patriot Act W, but not Obama?

[/quote]I will forever hate Bush for opening that Pandoras box. Seriously, that was about as short sighted as it could get. That’s the day OBL won. [quote]

Obama has simply been a continuation of the same government encroachments under the guise of “fighting terrorism” and “if you have nothing to hide don’t worry.”

Whoever wins in 2016 will undoubtedly carry on the torch of Bush and Obama.

[/quote]Not if we elect a true Conservative. If we elect another RINO we’re done.[quote]

I would say the biggest disappointment of President Obama has been he ran on doing things opposite of his predecessor and then decided to be the same guy or a more advanced version of him.
[/quote]

Hope and Change sure looks kinda strange now that we look back on it, huh? The American people were hoodwinked by Chicago con man. One of his first major failures was failing to support the Green revolution in Iran… Now that we look back on it, it’s pretty obvious that he was in the corner whispering with the Ayatollah even back then. We just chalked it up to lack of balls, but it was far more insidious than that. He is LIAR.

80

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Not if we elect a true Conservative. If we elect another RINO we’re done.
[/quote]

…

Dude. Virtually every single Republican (and Democrat for that matter) voted for the Patriot Act shortly after 9/11.

Even now, the vast majority of both parties vote to continue it every time it comes up.