Israel: The Alternative

Interesting old article on a binational, one-state solution:

"At the dawn of the twentieth century, in the twilight of the continental empires, Europe’s subject peoples dreamed of forming “nation-states,” territorial homelands where Poles, Czechs, Serbs, Armenians, and others might live free, masters of their own fate. When the Habsburg and Romanov empires collapsed after World War I, their leaders seized the opportunity. A flurry of new states emerged; and the first thing they did was set about privileging their national, “ethnic” majority�??defined by language, or religion, or antiquity, or all three�??at the expense of inconvenient local minorities, who were consigned to second-class status: permanently resident strangers in their own home.

But one nationalist movement, Zionism, was frustrated in its ambitions. The dream of an appropriately sited Jewish national home in the middle of the defunct Turkish Empire had to wait upon the retreat of imperial Britain: a process that took three more decades and a second world war. And thus it was only in 1948 that a Jewish nation-state was established in formerly Ottoman Palestine. But the founders of the Jewish state had been influenced by the same concepts and categories as their fin-de-siècle contemporaries back in Warsaw, or Odessa, or Bucharest; not surprisingly, Israel’s ethno-religious self-definition, and its discrimination against internal “foreigners,” has always had more in common with, say, the practices of post-Habsburg Romania than either party might care to acknowledge.

In one vital attribute, however, Israel is quite different from previous insecure, defensive microstates born of imperial collapse: it is a democracy. Hence its present dilemma. Thanks to its occupation of the lands conquered in 1967, Israel today faces three unattractive choices. It can dismantle the Jewish settlements in the territories, return to the 1967 state borders within which Jews constitute a clear majority, and thus remain both a Jewish state and a democracy, albeit one with a constitutionally anomalous community of second-class Arab citizens.

Alternatively, Israel can continue to occupy “Samaria,” “Judea,” and Gaza, whose Arab population�??added to that of present-day Israel�??will become the demographic majority within five to eight years: in which case Israel will be either a Jewish state (with an ever-larger majority of unenfranchised non-Jews) or it will be a democracy. But logically it cannot be both.

Or else Israel can keep control of the Occupied Territories but get rid of the overwhelming majority of the Arab population: either by forcible expulsion or else by starving them of land and livelihood, leaving them no option but to go into exile. In this way Israel could indeed remain both Jewish and at least formally democratic: but at the cost of becoming the first modern democracy to conduct full-scale ethnic cleansing as a state project, something which would condemn Israel forever to the status of an outlaw state, an international pariah.

But the crisis in the Middle East won’t go away. President Bush will probably be conspicuous by his absence from the fray for the coming year, having said just enough about the “road map” in June to placate Tony Blair. But sooner or later an American statesman is going to have to tell the truth to an Israeli prime minister and find a way to make him listen. Israeli liberals and moderate Palestinians have for two decades been thanklessly insisting that the only hope was for Israel to dismantle nearly all the settlements and return to the 1967 borders, in exchange for real Arab recognition of those frontiers and a stable, terrorist-free Palestinian state underwritten (and constrained) by Western and international agencies. This is still the conventional consensus, and it was once a just and possible solution.

But I suspect that we are already too late for that. There are too many settlements, too many Jewish settlers, and too many Palestinians, and they all live together, albeit separated by barbed wire and pass laws. Whatever the “road map” says, the real map is the one on the ground, and that, as Israelis say, reflects facts. It may be that over a quarter of a million heavily armed and subsidized Jewish settlers would leave Arab Palestine voluntarily; but no one I know believes it will happen. Many of those settlers will die�??and kill�??rather than move. The last Israeli politician to shoot Jews in pursuit of state policy was David Ben-Gurion, who forcibly disarmed Begin’s illegal Irgun militia in 1948 and integrated it into the new Israel Defense Forces. Ariel Sharon is not Ben-Gurion.[3]

A binational state in the Middle East would require a brave and relentlessly engaged American leadership. The security of Jews and Arabs alike would need to be guaranteed by international force�??though a legitimately constituted binational state would find it much easier policing militants of all kinds inside its borders than when they are free to infiltrate them from outside and can appeal to an angry, excluded constituency on both sides of the border.[5] A binational state in the Middle East would require the emergence, among Jews and Arabs alike, of a new political class. The very idea is an unpromising mix of realism and utopia, hardly an auspicious place to begin. But the alternatives are far, far worse."

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Interesting old article on a binational, one-state solution:

[/quote]

Ah, yes, Tony Judt. He got a lot of flack for this mild (and by the way, not terribly original) piece.
Ok, I will play:

FOr purposes of discussion, let’s agree to leave aside the binational solution that was instituted in 1947, and contravened by Arab armies in 1948.

Professor Judt, I ask, when the Jewish settlers leave all the territories in dispute and retreat behind agreed upon borders, who will guarantee that no Arab, no “extremist” and no Hezbollah or Hamas reactionary will cry, “No, this border is illegitimate. Arabs, you have been betrayed! And there is no place for the Zionist entity here anyway.”? Extreme positions win hands down; just note leaders assassinated for their “moderate” positions.

We also have the historical example, contrary to his assertion quoted above. When Israelis left Gaza, there was a vacuum, with Hamas achieving power and resultant violence. When Israelis left Lebanaon, the vacuum was not filled by the Lebanese national authority or Lebanese army (their treaty obligation) but by Hezbollah thuggery. The UN team charged with the mission, walked the Israeli-Lebanon border, literally foot by foot, with both countries’ legitimate authorities, the border was agreed upon; and still, Hezbollah uses border near “The Farms” as one more false excuse to fire rockets.

Mr. Judt is a persuasive and detailed historian. This article needs a little revision.

Ugh, let them sort out their own problems. We should disengage from all sides of the conflict. No aid and weapons to any party involved. No embargoes on food, medicine, or goods though. No promises to defend anyone. Nothing.

Furthermore, we should discourage any international effort to intervene through force. It’s time to stop the nation building and border engineering. Especially if we’re involved. I’m more than over our tax dollars being spent on the consequences. So, let the victor set the borders and defend them, if they can.

I agree.

But…

If we disengage, what’s stopping the Ruskies, the Chinese, Syrians, Egyptians, Saudis, or Iranians from arming the groups that continue to attack Israel?

or should we just say, “Oh well, it’s not our fight.”?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
or should we just say, “Oh well, it’s not our fight.”?[/quote]

Is it our fight? I’m of the belief that our loyalties are to our citizens. And the United States of America’s military is for the defense of the US. And, our tax revenue to go towards our benefit, or back to us.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Ugh, let them sort out their own problems. We should disengage from all sides of the conflict. No aid and weapons to any party involved. No embargoes on food, medicine, or goods though. No promises to defend anyone. Nothing.

Furthermore, we should discourage any international effort to intervene through force. It’s time to stop the nation building and border engineering. Especially if we’re involved. I’m more than over our tax dollars being spent on the consequences. So, let the victor set the borders and defend them, if they can.[/quote]

All very reasonable. But you’d be labeled an anti-semite if your words were published in the mainstream media. And I would too for pointing that out.

I am not a blame Israel and Jewish conspiracies nut by any means. But there is something wrong in this country when we can’t question our Governments unquestioning support for Israel and everything they do without getting labeled as bigots.

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Ugh, let them sort out their own problems. We should disengage from all sides of the conflict. No aid and weapons to any party involved. No embargoes on food, medicine, or goods though. No promises to defend anyone. Nothing.

Furthermore, we should discourage any international effort to intervene through force. It’s time to stop the nation building and border engineering. Especially if we’re involved. I’m more than over our tax dollars being spent on the consequences. So, let the victor set the borders and defend them, if they can.

All very reasonable. But you’d be labeled an anti-semite if your words were published in the mainstream media. And I would too for pointing that out.

I am not a blame Israel and Jewish conspiracies nut by any means. But there is something wrong in this country when we can’t question our Governments unquestioning support for Israel and everything they do without getting labeled as bigots.[/quote]

But what in Sloth’s statement is anti-semitic? Sloth indicated:
–no conflation of Jews and Israel
–no denial of national rights
–no ascribing a corporate and conspiratorial evil to Jews
–no claims of Jews as a fifth column in the US, bent on subjugating the US interests to outsiders.

Lots of people fill newspapers with questioning our Government’s support for Israel…and Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc. Where is the conspiracy to suppress opinion? (see the “Biased education” thread, if you want a contrary opinion.)

Now,then, Gabby, care to re-examine your statement?

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Extreme positions win hands down; just note leaders assassinated for their “moderate” positions.[/quote]

Yitzhak Rabin? Anyone?

[quote]I agree.

But…

If we disengage, what’s stopping the Ruskies, the Chinese, Syrians, Egyptians, Saudis, or Iranians from arming the groups that continue to attack Israel?

or should we just say, “Oh well, it’s not our fight.”?[/quote]

Here is the real question.

What makes you think that the Chinese and the Russkiees, give a flying fuck about Israel?

In post-Soviet history, those two countries only really operate with others in the hopes of creating economic benefit.

I don’t think the Chinese are anti-semites, or the Russians, want to see a country with a huge Russian Jewish population blown to smitherines…I also don’t think they care either.

The world is not like Team American vs the Axis Of Evil. Most of these nations just want money, thats about it. Some kind of ideological, destruction of Israel from all the “bad guys.” Isn’t a real notion, if the USA stopped support for Israel, Iran and Syria would probably be in on it, Lebanon too. But I doubt even Egypt would want a peice of it, in recent history their stance on Israel has been pretty much like “we tried our part for pan-arabism and got burned by all the arabs.” They’ve moved on to a different philosophy.

Honestly, I’d like to see Lebanon, fucking destroy Israel, they’d have the right to.

If we’re talking MUZZIES BADDIES, IZZIES GOODIES…The israelis, exacerbated a Lebanese Civil War, and fucking blew to bits one of the most beautiful cities in the world in a largely christian bi-national country.

I don’t know of any Muslim nation, that has dropped bombs and beat the fuck out of a Christian country like that.

Also, the Israelis, sank a US naval ship and have been accused of performing counter intelligence against our military for the Soviet Union.

They are not our ally, so fuck them.

Agreed Sloth…I don’t see why nation building needs to happen in any country but our own…Why do we blow up bridges in Iraq, spend US tax dollars to rebuilt bridges and then our own bridges are crumbling?

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
But what in Sloth’s statement is anti-semitic? Sloth indicated:
–no conflation of Jews and Israel
–no denial of national rights
–no ascribing a corporate and conspiratorial evil to Jews
–no claims of Jews as a fifth column in the US, bent on subjugating the US interests to outsiders.

Lots of people fill newspapers with questioning our Government’s support for Israel…and Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc. Where is the conspiracy to suppress opinion? (see the “Biased education” thread, if you want a contrary opinion.)

Now,then, Gabby, care to re-examine your statement?[/quote]

Re-examine what? I didn’t say there was anything anti-semitic in Sloths statement. I said, if he spoke openly about withdrawing support for Israel, he would be labeled an anti-semite. Howard Dean questioned our unconditional support for Israel, and he had to defend himself against charges of anti-semitism. His wife is jewish. He still gets to speak, but somebody will pop up to sling mud, and intelligent conversation becomes that much more difficult.

The Arabs. The poor Arabs. After all, who have they ever invaded but the Magrheb, the Levant, the Iberian peninsula, France, India, Africa…

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
or should we just say, “Oh well, it’s not our fight.”?

Is it our fight? I’m of the belief that our loyalties are to our citizens. And the United States of America’s military is for the defense of the US. And, our tax revenue to go towards our benefit, or back to us.[/quote]

I’m of the opinion that our involvement with Israel is more to the detriment of Israel than benefit. Every “peace conference” we have where we get the Jews and the Arabs at the same table, concessions are made by the Jews and a hudna is made by the Muslims who have no intention of living up to their end.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

But what in Sloth’s statement is anti-semitic? Sloth indicated:
–no conflation of Jews and Israel
–no denial of national rights
–no ascribing a corporate and conspiratorial evil to Jews
–no claims of Jews as a fifth column in the US, bent on subjugating the US interests to outsiders.

Lots of people fill newspapers with questioning our Government’s support for Israel…and Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc. Where is the conspiracy to suppress opinion? (see the “Biased education” thread, if you want a contrary opinion.)

Now,then, Gabby, care to re-examine your statement?[/quote]

Thank you, Dr. I’m not saying I agree with EVERY military/police action EVER taken by the Israelis, but I am sympathetic to their position. However, I simply do not see our involvment, in any way, as being in the defense of our own nation. That goes for aid and arms to Arab/muslim nations as well. Or, to any Palestinian factions.

Israel is in a tough spot with religiously fanatical characters like Assud, the Hamas jihad bunny, publically instructing the next generation of Palestinian youth. Personally, I doubt we’ll see peace in the region until Palestinian parents drag such TV personalities (and yes, clerics too) out into the street and deliver some mob justice.

Following are excerpts from a Hamas children’s show, “The Pioneers of Tomorrow”, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on February 22, 2008:

[i]Child host Saraa Barhoum: Amani, you’ve seen the kind of attack that the West launched against the Prophet Muhammad. What do you have to say on behalf of the Prophet Muhammad?

Amani, by phone: In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate, I say to those cowardly infidels…

Assud the Bunny: Those criminals…

Amani: Yes, those criminals… You mock our Prophet Muhammad, but look, my beloved Prophet Muhammad, how Allah responded to them: “Allah shall pay them back for their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their excess, blindly wandering on.” My beloved Messenger of Allah, they mocked you with their drawings, because they do not know the mercy in your heart. My beloved Muhammad, if they had known the mercy in your heart, they would not have done this to you. Allah knows that we love you, and that we will redeem you with our souls, our blood, and our hearts.

[…]

Assud: Do you boycott Israeli and Danish products?

Amani: Yes, Assud. I do.

Assud: You’ve stopped eating them altogether?

Amani: I have.

Assud: That’s great. Keep it up.

Saraa: All of us will definitely boycott Danish products, and even before that, we will boycott Israeli products, Amani.

Amani: With your permission, I’d like to continue.

Assud and Saraa: Go ahead.

Amani: Finally, I’d like to apologize to the Messenger of Allah. May Allah curse these infidels, who have gone astray. We the soldiers of the pioneers of tomorrow, apologize to you, beloved Messenger of Allah. Denmark has spoken heresy, but you are a source of pride and mercy for Islam and the Muslims.

Assud: The [American] cowboys have spoken heresy as well.

[…]

Amani: Our brothers, the Americans, have affronted the Prophet Muhammad…

Assud: They are not our brothers, they are criminals.

Amani: What?

Assud: They are infidels, not our brothers.

Amani: They are enemies of Allah, and they have affronted the Prophet Muhammad.

[…]

Saraa: How did these Danes have the audacity to affront the Messenger of Allah? Do you have an answer to that, Assud?

Assud: No, I don’t. Maybe because the Arabs and Muslims keep silent, [the Danes] humiliated them and did these things to them.

Saraa: That’s one reason, but there is an even more important reason, Assud.

Assud: I have no idea.

Saraa: It’s because the West has seen that we’ve moved away from the religion of Allah, and from the Sunna of our Prophet Muhammad. They have also seen that we have forsaken the religion of Allah, and therefore, they could affront the Prophet, because… We have done nothing to redeem the Prophet Muhammad. But I say to them: You haven’t seen anything yet. Allah willing, the soldiers of the Pioneers of Tomorrow will redeem the Prophet Muhammad with all that they possess, and even with their blood, Assud. They will not allow them to do this again.

Assud: If they do it again, Saraa, we will kill them, right?

Saraa: Allah willing.

Assud: I will bite them and eat them up.

Saraa: Yes.

[…]

Assud, we are not terrorists. All we want is to get our beloved homeland, Palestine, back. We want all of Palestine to be ours. We are not terrorists…

Assud: Because it was ours to begin with, right?

Saraa: Right. They say we are terrorists merely because we want this, but of course, we’re not terrorists…

Assud: They are the terrorists.

Saraa: Yes, Assud. Allah willing, we will regain the cities under Zionist occupation, such as Jaffe, Haifa, Acre, Ashdod, the village of Hoj, and all the Palestinian cities.

Assud: Saraa, do you know what I’m hoping for? I want us to take Jaffe, Acre, Haifa, and all of Palestine, Allah willing, and then we’ll go to Iraq. All the borders will be opened. Between Egypt and us, there will be no barriers, and the same goes for Jordan and Saudi Arabia. We’ll come and go by car. I hope this comes true. Do you think this will come true?

Saraa: Allah willing, this will come true soon.

Assud: Allah willing, when I am martyred, a tiger will take my place… Allah willing, I will be the one to fix things, and there won’t be any tiger. The “Pioneers of Tomorrow” and I will make this dream come true.

[…]

Who will host this show if you are martyred? Will 100,000 Saraas take your place?

Saraa: Allah willing, Assud.

Assud: We’ll take them from among the Pioneers of Tomorrow, Allah willing.

Saraa: Allah willing, there are thousands of soldiers of the Pioneers of Tomorrow.

Assud: Martyrdom for the sake of Allah is what we hope for, right?

Saraa: Right, Assud.

[…]

Saraa: What do you have to say to the cartoonist who started all this, and affronted the Prophet by drawing him?

Assud: He’s a criminal…

Saraa: Yes, a criminal.

Tasnim, by phone: I say to him, and to all of them, that no matter how much they try to hide him, we will manage to kill him, to assassinate him.

Assud: Allah willing.

Saraa: I pray that Allah makes the earth swallow him up, so that he serves as a lesson to others like him, Tasnim.

[…]

Assud, it appears that our show is coming to an end. What do you have to say to this criminal, the cartoonist who affronted the Prophet by drawing him?

Assud: I say to him what you already said: You criminal, you lowlife, you scum of the earth �?? right, Saraa? Allah willing, the day will come when you will regret what you did.[/i]

[quote]Sikkario wrote:
In post-Soviet history, those two countries only really operate with others in the hopes of creating economic benefit.
[/quote]

Tell it to the people of Tibet. Tell it to the people of Darfur. Yep. A real benefit.

[quote]lixy wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
Extreme positions win hands down; just note leaders assassinated for their “moderate” positions.

Yitzhak Rabin? Anyone?[/quote]

Anouar El Sadate ? …

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Assud: No, I don’t. Maybe because the Arabs and Muslims keep silent, [the Danes] humiliated them and did these things to them.[/quote]

Gotta be shittin’ me!

[quote]jeffdirect wrote:
lixy wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
Extreme positions win hands down; just note leaders assassinated for their “moderate” positions.

Yitzhak Rabin? Anyone?

Anouar El Sadate ? … [/quote]

Mubarak is actually more pro-Israel than his predecessor.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Assud: No, I don’t. Maybe because the Arabs and Muslims keep silent, [the Danes] humiliated them and did these things to them.

Gotta be shittin’ me![/quote]

Explain, please. I’d like to think you’re objecting to Assud the Hamas Jihad Bunny. But, I want to be sure.

Did I miss something, I totally have missed where you are going with this?

Where does Darfur come into this?

I said China is trying to make money. Russia is trying to make money, global political prostylthizing, and ideological war, isn’t their game anymore.

What does that have to do with Tibet or Darfur?

Tell it to Fallujah, Mexico?

Confused?