[quote]Phate89 wrote:
Of course there are bad muslims like that, just like there are bad people in every religion.
And wtf are you talking about Mosques spreading terrorism?
Have you ever been in a mosque and heard the lectures? If not, you should STFU.[/quote]
What mosque do you suppose these folks (noted below)attended, and how do you suppose they came to misunderstand their religion so poorly?
Just curious, but do you think that appeasement a good strategy for dealing with cancer?
Like I said.
Go to a local mosque, or one near by, listen into the lectures and talk to the Iman and ask him these questions.
There are over 8 million muslims in America, and if they were as radical as you think there would be more shit going down. The only bad thing I could think of a muslim doing so far in the states is the texas case where the muslim dad murdered his daughter.
The solutions you all suggest is nothing different than complete discrimination jews felt, and i assure you making feelings muslims feel unwanted and outsiders will only fuel the hate and give more of a reason for extremism to rise.
[quote]Phate89 wrote:
… and give more of a reason for extremism to rise.
[/quote]
Really? An actual REASON for extremism to rise?
[quote]doogie wrote:
Phate89 wrote:
… and give more of a reason for extremism to rise.
Really? An actual REASON for extremism to rise?
[/quote]
Oh, that’s right, doogie, no one sent you the memo: The WEST is the sole cause of Islamic extremism. If there were no Western culture, there would be no reason for extremism.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Varqinir your input into this is at the level of a five year old. Your arguements that because some old jews held slaves it’s perfectly ok is BS.
The idea that slavery is wrong is not a new idea at all. Look up Spartacus sometime.
So why don’t you grow up or leave.[/quote]
I have no intention of leaving, and if anyone needs to grow up, perhaps it’s the person who can’t respond to a factual statement without insulting the person who made it.
You said that “it takes a particularly cold and cruel individual to own another human being as a slave.”
I disagree. Throughout history, for as long as human beings have practiced agriculture and warfare, there has been slavery. Surely, there have been cruel slaveowners. The Romans were particularly cruel. The Spartans were pretty cruel. American planters were less cruel by comparison. However, it does not follow that only cruel and cold individuals ever owned slaves. For all we know, the carpenter Joseph, the father of Jesus, owned a slave or two. Certainly, Jesus never condemned slavery as an institution, nor indicted owners of slaves as being cold and cruel.
Since it appears that you can’t tell the difference between taking a moral position and stating a fact, let me be perfectly clear. I do not personally approve of slavery, for the simple reason that it is a violation of the inalienable rights set down on paper by one of my favorite Americans, who was himself of course an eminent slaveholder.
Further, I do not deny that for as long as slavery has existed, there have been those who disagreed with the practice. That shouldn’t surprise anyone. As long as anything has existed, be it slavery, or warfare, or capitalism, or alcohol, or the internal combustion engine, there has been someone who was against it, usually on moral grounds.
In this century, most people abhor the practice of slavery, while owning non-human animals. I see nothing wrong with owning livestock or pets, as long as they are well-treated and cared for. In a few more centuries, even this practice may be universally condemned as a violation of inalienable animal rights. It may sound preposterous to most of us now (at least those of us who are not PETA members), but no more preposterous than your assertion that all slaveholders are by necessity cold and cruel would have sounded to the great majority of people only two centuries ago.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Yeah, but WIP said “The first thing you must understand, is that there is no concept of slavery in Islam, all humans are equal. Slave in this context, simply refers to ‘butler’ or ‘maid.’”[/quote]
Here I’ll have to disagree with half of what WIP says. The word “abd” in Arabic (Qur’an), the word “eved” in Hebrew and the word “dulos” in Greek (Hebrew and Christian bibles) all unequivocally refer to a person who is a slave, probably a bondservant (similar to our understanding of an “indentured servant”) in the context of the scriptures, although the words could also refer to a chattel slave.
As for the second part, though, I believe that WIP’s reference to equality under Islam is the same as equality under Christianity as stated by St. Paul:
“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” 1 Corinthians 12:13
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:28:
“Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.” Colossians 3:11
Here Paul is not preaching abolition, nor stating that slavery was incompatible with Christianity, simply that no matter who you are, you are considered equal to every other Christian in the eyes of God.[quote]
If taking a small child from a couple by force and raising them as a warrior to fight battles is not considered slavery, what exactly would one’s definition of slavery be?
[/quote]
My definition is “the practice of forcibly extracting labor from a person without fair compensation.” Working in a prison chain gang is slavery, and is approved by the 13th Amendment. Countless other examples abound, some legal, some not.
[quote]Phate89 wrote:
Of course there are bad muslims like that, just like there are bad people in every religion.
And wtf are you talking about Mosques spreading terrorism?
Have you ever been in a mosque and heard the lectures? If not, you should STFU.[/quote]
Are you denying it takes place? It happens. Denying it makes people think you must be in on it.
In France, where they actually monitor such things it is just under 5% of mosques that spread hatred and terror.
http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2373621
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Of course he did. And so did Abraham, and Moses, and David, and Solomon. The first Christian Popes were slave-owners, many religious orders were corporate slave-owners, and until the 19th Century, practically every other person with wealth in Europe, Asia, Africa and America owned slaves. Ulysses S. Grant, who led the army that “freed the slaves” owned slaves. Slavery has been a fact of life from about the Neolithic age until today. We may think it a cruel and cold practice today, with our “enlightened” twenty-first century sensibilities, just as people in the twenty-fifth century may look upon our current “ownership” of dogs and cats as cruel and inhumane.
Yeah, but WIP said “The first thing you must understand, is that there is no concept of slavery in Islam, all humans are equal. Slave in this context, simply refers to ‘butler’ or ‘maid.’”
I find this hard to believe when the Muslims were ruled by Slave Dynasties in 2 different countries in 2 periods of their time.
The arguement is not whether slavery existed, it’s about the concept of slavery.
If taking a small child from a couple by force and raising them as a warrior to fight battles is not considered slavery, what exactly would one’s definition of slavery be?
[/quote]
Because WIP is ignorant or lying.
I don’t believe in God but I take no joy in destroying other peoples faith. Everyone needs something.
While we could point out the problems in any religion, such as Christians ignoring Christ’s own actions and going all Old Testament the topic here is Islam.
Any thinking person understand that Islam is just another flawed interpretation of the concept of a higher power. As human beings we are not capable of a complete understanding. I have no problems here.
What I dislike is people coming here and telling bald faced lies.
Islam is not compatible with slavery? Bullshit. The big guy himself owned slaves. The Islamic world has been the cornerstone of the slave trade. Looking at my countries own history I see that many/most of the slaves were sold by Muslims. (I find it ironic one of the most famous men in the world went from an abolitionists name to a slavers name.)
Hate is not being preached in mosques?. Another load of bullshit. It is not all mosques that are the problem, just a small portion. Muslims should be working to destroy these hate factories that are bringing down their religion, not denying their existence.
Coming here and telling lies does not help your cause.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Sifu wrote:
You said that “it takes a particularly cold and cruel individual to own another human being as a slave.”
I disagree. Throughout history, for as long as human beings have practiced agriculture and warfare, there has been slavery. Surely, there have been cruel slaveowners. The Romans were particularly cruel. The Spartans were pretty cruel. American planters were less cruel by comparison. However, it does not follow that only cruel and cold individuals ever owned slaves. For all we know, the carpenter Joseph, the father of Jesus, owned a slave or two. Certainly, Jesus never condemned slavery as an institution, nor indicted owners of slaves as being cold and cruel.[/quote]
Slavery has been a standard feature of most every human society at all times. Sharia has a large and impressive body of law to deal with slaves, which was, at the time, considerably in advance of Europe. Slavery is still practiced in many places, such as Africa and in the Middle East (where conservative types consider the outlawing of it yet another intrusive act by the West.) I did post on this in another thread and you all might want to read it:
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1892973&pageNo=3
(about the 4th post down. How do you grab the actual message id?)
Cheers,
– jj
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I don’t believe in God but I take no joy in destroying other peoples faith. Everyone needs something.
While we could point out the problems in any religion, such as Christians ignoring Christ’s own actions and going all Old Testament the topic here is Islam.
Any thinking person understand that Islam is just another flawed interpretation of the concept of a higher power. As human beings we are not capable of a complete understanding. I have no problems here.
What I dislike is people coming here and telling bald faced lies.
Islam is not compatible with slavery? Bullshit. The big guy himself owned slaves. The Islamic world has been the cornerstone of the slave trade. Looking at my countries own history I see that many/most of the slaves were sold by Muslims. (I find it ironic one of the most famous men in the world went from an abolitionists name to a slavers name.)
Hate is not being preached in mosques?. Another load of bullshit. It is not all mosques that are the problem, just a small portion. Muslims should be working to destroy these hate factories that are bringing down their religion, not denying their existence.
Coming here and telling lies does not help your cause. [/quote]
I have yet to have entered any mosque that condones terrorism and extremism. The mosques you are talking about might be 1 in a thousand.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Are you denying it takes place? It happens. Denying it makes people think you must be in on it. [/quote]
It’s a cunning plot!
[quote]In France, where they actually monitor such things it is just under 5% of mosques that spread hatred and terror.
http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2373621 [/quote]
How can you twist that 4.7% “were of concern to” the Renseignements Généraux, into “spread hatred and terror”?
If anyone is spreading hatred here, it is the crowd that keeps insisting Muslims should be put in internment camps. And if anyone is spreading terror, it is you and your cronies. Not in their wildest dreams could Al-Qaeda have imagined that they would turn the “home of the brave” into a terrorized people.
[quote]lixy wrote:
If anyone is spreading hatred here, it is the crowd that keeps insisting Muslims should be put in internment camps. And if anyone is spreading terror, it is you and your cronies. Not in their wildest dreams could Al-Qaeda have imagined that they would turn the “home of the brave” into a terrorized people.[/quote]
One second, by your own words, you wrote that Saudi Arabia funds Wahhabi mosques thoughtout the world and they are preaching terror. Is this indeed a fact, (hatred is preached in Mosques,) or just a tactic to spread hatred of America because we are currently allied with Saudi Arabia?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I don’t believe in God but I take no joy in destroying other peoples faith. Everyone needs something.
While we could point out the problems in any religion, such as Christians ignoring Christ’s own actions and going all Old Testament the topic here is Islam.
Any thinking person understand that Islam is just another flawed interpretation of the concept of a higher power. As human beings we are not capable of a complete understanding. I have no problems here.
What I dislike is people coming here and telling bald faced lies.
Islam is not compatible with slavery? Bullshit. The big guy himself owned slaves. The Islamic world has been the cornerstone of the slave trade. Looking at my countries own history I see that many/most of the slaves were sold by Muslims. (I find it ironic one of the most famous men in the world went from an abolitionists name to a slavers name.)
Hate is not being preached in mosques?. Another load of bullshit. It is not all mosques that are the problem, just a small portion. Muslims should be working to destroy these hate factories that are bringing down their religion, not denying their existence.
Coming here and telling lies does not help your cause. [/quote]
Remember that muslims don’t consider taquiya lying. If it helps them to propagate islam, it’s ok.
As for slavery, it has been a ubiquitous tradition of Islam since the days of Muhammad to the current plight of non-Muslims in the Sudan, Mali, Niger and Mauritania, as well as other parts of the Muslim world.
While I agree that the wahhabi’s are a huge problem, they are not the only ones.
In Britain thirty six percent of young muslims say that apostates should be killed. Wanting to murder people over religious beliefs is extremist.
[quote]lixy wrote:
ElbowStrike wrote:
Having been an arrogant, America-hating, far-lefty in the past, I should’ve been bitch-slapped with this film years ago.
That’s an interesting comment. Why do you feel your hate of “America” in the past is relevant in this context?
it fits perfectly with why Muslim nations fail to uphold treaty obligations,
What “Muslim nations” do you have in mind?
It just fits.
Well, they’re preaching to the converted. I haven’t seen the movie, but from what I gather, skeptics won’t be impressed.
What muslim nations do you have in mind???
You gotta be kidding- How about IRan, yemen, somalia, indonesia, afghanistan ? until we came and brougt humanity.
The major sources for the film are the Quran and Hadith themselves.
You know, Al-Qaeda uses those sources too. You happen to be in a similar position as their recruits: being fed out of context quotes for propaganda purposes.
I won’t dissect your points because I haven’t seen the movie, but if you’d like to point out the logic and scripture behind any of them (the “Islam is not a religion” should be a riot!), we could get somewhere. Most of them have been discussed ad nauseaum on this very board though. The search function is your friend.
But for the sake of discussion, let’s assume for a minute that everything you wrote is true, that Muslims are a bunch of hypocrites, that there is some grand conspiracy on their part to take over the world by force and that the mass media are taking part in said mischief. What then do you suggest we do about it? Any thoughts?[/quote]
Lixy…
Youre the goddamned hipocrite muslim here. What is your OPINIONS really ? Do you have any?
But for the sake of discussion, let’s assume for a minute that everything you wrote is true, that Muslims are a bunch of hypocrites, that there is some grand conspiracy on their part to take over the world by force and that the mass media are taking part in said mischief. What then do you suggest we do about it? Any thoughts?[/quote]
Youre missing the point: there doesnt have to be a conspiracy when it is built in within the religion itself.