Have any of the Christians here ever read Thomas Paine’s THE AGE OF REASON? I’m just really curious how people manage to keep their faith in the face of such overwhelming evidence that they are wrong.
Concerned, I suggest you change your moniker, accept by faith that you are saved. I have seen the movie the Rapture and can appreciate your concerns but remember that Jesus shed his blood that we may be free. Try not to get too hung up on the end times stuff and enjoy the blessings and the now “therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.” Matt 6.34. Personally I believe that we may be near/in the end of times but as mentioned earlier there are lot of things that are prophesied that haven’t happened, the treaty being a biggy, Israel is a key indicator, keep an eye on things, but most of all trust in the Lord.
“Businesses come and go, but religion will last forever, for in no other endeavor does the consumer blame himself for product failure.”
As far as my beliefs go, you are fine. The excepting of Gods plan is the big thing. We all make mistakes, daily, hell, hourly/minutely for me most of the time. But I try to be a good person, try to treat others as I would want to be treated, and so forth. Dont worry about the little things. Thats why religions are at eachothers throats so often, they sweat the little stuff. Catholics dont see drinking as a sin, while other sects of Christianity do. Small junk like that wont make a difference in the end. I doubt St. Peter will look at you, say “You have been a good man, Concerned. You lead a good, wholesome life. You cared for others and treated them well. But, on the night of your 21st birthday, you got pretty soused. So, TO THE DEPTHS OS HELL FOR YOU. You are the weakest link. Goodbye.” I just dont see that happening. But, that is just my view. I think religion/spirituality is a very personal thing. You must come to realize your beliefs through your experiences. Your own trials and tribulations. But, again, this is only my opinion.
I am not a hard line Bible beater. Crap, your choice is your choice. I just dislike it when people call my choices ignorant or what not. Who are they to judge? And at the same time, who am I to judge?
To me, like I said earlier, each one must discover his/her own peace. From the looks of it, you are trying to do just that. In just doing that, I think you will find much peace of mind. You sound like a good person, just a little nervous, which is totally understandable. But, there is no need to worry, because God protects His children.
Tflex- I’m not talking about believers vs. nonbelievers. I’m saying there are more people who believe in something entirely different than Christians. On a worldwide perspective, something you only see if you study a number of world religions, Jesus is a but a footnote and not believed to be divine by most other people in the world who believe in a god. Hey, if you were born in China and raised Buhdist or in some other Eastern belief system, you’d think Jesus was right up there with Santa Clause. And there are alot more of “them” than “us”. So why are “we” right?
Yeah, yeah, I know, “ya better believe just in case.” That’s a crock and if there is a god I’m sure he’ll see through all those that say they believe “just in case” yet do not live a Christian life. Religion was invented to control people and to give them comfort in the face of death. Period. (And yes, I’ve read the Bible front to back and attended church during my youth. But I’ve also read many other religious texts.)
Here’s an illustration that I heard a few years ago that has stuck with me, very emotional stuff. Imagine that God has the best video equipment, well beyond anything we imagine now. Can see through walls and records perfect pictures at zero lumins (sp?) of light. He’s recording your every sin, even when no one else sees it. When you’re called before the throne for your judgement, God says, “Okay Peter, roll Concerned’s tape.” Okay, I for one really don’t want my tape viewed, as it’s probably going to be pretty long, definitely stuff I’m not proud of. How about you? Any way, just as Peter’s about to hit the “Play” button, Jesus breaks in – “Dad, this is one of mine. Peter, hit the eject and give me that tape.” And as the tape is handed to Jesus, the blood from his hands melts it away to nothing.
…if you confess me before men, I will confess you before the Father…
Brider, I like that tape thing. It really puts things in perspective. Thanks.
Doogie- why yes, I have heard of the book and read some of it. then i got my head out of my butt and sold it to the halfprice bookstore. i was raised in this so-called Age Of Reason. And I would hazard a guess that I know a bit more about most sciences than the average person. Rfer to my prior post about science these days. There are so many holes in many of the theories, so flawed at a basic level, that they dont hold water if you know anything. It is the fact that people are so eager to find a reason to write of God, that they believe everything they are fed in that aspect. While, if anyone told them about Christian Science theries, they would laugh. See, that is blatant ignorance. You cannot understand the argument until you know both sides. And I do, and I know that God exists. There is nothing like evolution, or carbon dating or the big bang theory that can disprove it, because they can be easily disproven with a basic knowledge of physics and biology. But, I am as likely to sway your beliefs as you are to sway mine, so I will simply say, to each his own.
Tek, I can agree with you on one point, the "just in case" crowd is rather lame. "Everybody kissin ass to go to Heaven aint goin." line from a song i like. See, those people really havent accepted it in their hearts, they are doin/saying things because they dont want to get punished if there is really a God. Fear of repercussion is no reason to do anything. you do it because it is right, you want to.
i know this might sound weird, but someone once showed me many signs that the antichrist is ghadafi, the leader of libya!
1-the bible describes the antichrist as a fox, and ghadafi has been described as a fox. he was on the cover of time after US failed bombing libya.
he is a fox because the number 666, in a word associasted diagram(which i can’t explain) spells out fox. f=6,o=60,x=600.
also, the bible says he will come from the middle east and live in a tent. though ghadafi is rich, he lives in a tent!
also, he comes from the tribe that the bible says the antichrist will come from(don’t know which one)
this is not necessarily my beliefs, but a theory.
I’m going to try to give a brief explanation simply because this is not the arena to debate with pseudo-intellectuals that believe in star-trek societies or the people that are “brainwashed” by the many fringe factions of Christianity. Everytime there is something major, people think end of the world. Remember, Christ said he will come like a thief in the night. So please, attend to your business, keep your nose clean, and live as a Christian everyday if you are a Christian. Not just in the last 20 minutes before Christ comes back, because you won’t know when that is. Also, please don’t listen to any theories on who the antichrist may be. I can show you how the Pope is the anti-christ.
I haven’t done a lot of end times study for a few years but my understanding is that the “anti-christ” is actually perceived as a good guy as he brings peace to the world from a big war (west v muslims?), that is where the treaty comes in, he gains accolades etc and takes control as a world leader adored by nations.
I find the egocentric nature; of this conversation, to be quite flabbergasting. No one has mentioned the fact that religion doesn’t equal spirituality. Good luck with the discussion… without that distinction.
DA MAN- awesome post! I wholeheartedly agree with your moderate perspective on judgement and accepting God being the key. Brider- great analogy- it really it home. I can see why it stuck with you, as it will with me too.
In closing, your insights guys have given me a lot of food for thought, and also a lot of peace of mind. I may now have drop to the Concerned handle.
Thanks! (and God bless!)
there is no need to bash Christians. It amazes me how the so called open mind people are always closed minded when it comes to Christianity. First off, jesus tells us in the Bible that “no one knows the day or the hour except the Father”. That means there is no formula that you can use to say now is the end times as we know it. No mathematical equation. But, throughout the Bible there are signs to look for.
The biggest one, is that Isreal becomes a nation again. And that happened right after WWII. The Bible said that the Jews would be kicked out of Israel 3x. And that the 3rd time would be a world wide disperssion of Jews all over the world without a home, and the would be mocked and tortured all over the world. And then God would bring them back home. Well, aint it a huge coincidence that the Jews were kicked out 3x (King Nebacanezzer {probably spelled wrong but I think he was either King of Iraq or Iran then}, Egypt, then the Romans)and after the Romans kicked them out almost 2,000 years ago, and after a Holacaust that tried to wipe them off the face of the world, they were given there land back.
And the end, when Jesus comes back for his second coming, it will be to save Israel when the whole world lines up to destroy her.
I believe we are living in the end times, but when it will finally occur, no one knows the day or the hour except our Father in heaven.
The one thing our country should not do is turn its back on Israel. they are an ally (and our only real ally) in that part of the world.
BTW, I am not jewish, I am an italian/American
I don’t know who wrote is but Isaiah 53 is most
surely not about Jesus. Especially if you
read the original text in Hebrew (Aramaic
even better). The text was mistranslated
by early Bishops into Greek with the
mistranslation being carried over to Latin
and then English.
Isaiah 53 and the "suffering servant" deal has been bantered about for as long as Christianity has existed.
God almost always deals with Israel in two ways. Singularly, with every individual and collectively, with the nation as a whole. Isaiah 53 is an overview of the historical encounter of collective national Israel with the nations of the world and God’s rewards to the collective remnant of Israel for its faithfulness to His Torah. A day is coming when the nations of the world will, by virtue of the Israelite triumphs, become aware of God’s special relationship to Israel. This will have the effect of causing, first, shock and disbelief, and then, an acknowledgment of the special rewards that God will grant Israel, as is described in the latter part of Isaiah 53.
What the Isaiah in this chapter describes refers to Israel as a whole, not every individual Israelite. Not every Jew will have to undergo every aspect of suffering to be worthy of eventually partaking in the rewards God promises. Indeed, not every Israelite has to be faultless because the suffering servant, Israel, as a people is innocent. If one is to insist, however, that Isaiah 53 refers to a specific person, that individual would personally have to accomplish all that is required of the suffering servant of the Lord. Failure to do so is automatic disqualification.
It should be clear to everyone that even if Isaiah 53 referred solely to the Messiah this would still not infer any support for the claim that it refers to Jesus. The fundamental theological questions raised by the missionaries are "Who is the Messiah?" and "If not Jesus, who then is the Messiah and when will he come?" Jews are not obligated to identify who the Messiah will be or give a timetable for his arrival. One can only discuss the case presented for past claimants to the title. On this basis, Jews can confidently say that Jesus is not the Messiah of Israel prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus could not be the Messiah by virtue of any one of a number of disqualifications. They range from not having the biblical genealogical criteria for that office (one would have to be a biological descendant of David through the male line of Solomon) to bringing about the very fundamentals of the messianic age as delineated in Isaiah, chapter 11.
I now bow out of this conversation :-)
Brock
I have read the bible and have found that many passages in the bible refer to what sounds strikingly like alien spacecraft or aircraft of somekind. Many times, shiny metallic grey “clouds” appear overhead. Also, angels are described as metallic. I do believe that all the events in the bible transpired…however, these thoughts often trouble me. Any of you ever thought about it this way?
Aww Brock. You had to go ahead and post before me. I was going to point out that much of the Original Bible, cannot be translated correctly to english. Well that’s what came to mind when some guy mentioned he had a Bible translated word for word. This is simply not possible, as hebrew doesn’t translate correctly, word for word into English.
Those who do have Faith, I kind of respect. As long as you don't try and convince me I'm going to Hell for living a good life, helping people and generally being a good person, but not being Christian.
Remember there are millions of Taoists, Buddhists and members of other religions, that if you take away the whole, believing in Jesus part, make much better Christians then most Christians in this day of age.
Also, holes can be poked in any theory. No one can honestly state that science is right, while a specific religion is wrong, or vice versa. To do so is simply close mindedness. You can state you feel one side has more evidence, but both sides have that. Like many have said you just have to go with what you feel.
Concerned, if you read Mathew 24:34, Mathew 16:28, Mark 13:30, Mark 9:1, or Luke 21:32, Jesus makes a fairly easy to understand promise about when he will return. He claims he will return during the lifetime of the Apostles, which means he was due back almost 2000 years ago. In fact, his track record for keeping promises is pretty abysmal, eg: John 14:12-14, in which he claims that anything that you ask for in his name, he will provide, and that you will be able to do all the works he has done, if only you believe in him. I’ve been observing them for a long time, and it’s been my experience that Christians have no better chance of walking across water and resurrecting the dead than I do. In Mark 16:17-18, he says “if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them”. That’s a pretty neat trick, but I haven’t seen it. Matthew 17:20 says that all a Christian has to do is tell a mountain to move, and it will. I have to use earthmoving equipment to do my landscaping, but according to Jesus, all that’s necessary is that I believe in Him and speak nicely to the dirt, and off it goes.
If any of these promises were true, it would be silly not to be a Christian. Of course, if all of these promises proved to be untrue almost 2000 years before I was born and I still believed, that would be silly too. I wrote this slightly tongue in cheek because I enjoy a friendly debate on almost any topic, as long as no-one takes their point of view seriously enough to kill me over it.
tyrone- Jesus did return in during the lives of the Apostles, recall the Resurrection. As for the rest of the “promises,” interpretation is a question many have. And I question the accuracy of the interpretation of the “promises.” What version of the Bible were you reading? Many words have changed in meaning since the KJV has been written, and many words lose meaning in translation, or even become other words. That is one of the inherent problems of biblical study. unless you know how to read hebrew, greek and/or aramaic(sp?), you have to trust others interpretation of the text. just my take on it…
Now Brock, you can’t just pop in and bow out of the conversation; thats not what a real t-man does! Just kiddin. Seriously, the last chapters have often been called “deutero-Isaiah” do to the fact that the prophesies point so directly to Jesus as the Messiah that it couldn’t have been written 500 plus years before he was born; or so the scholars say. There are quite a number of striking prophesies in Isaiah, many more than I could get into, but here are a couple; read Isaiah 53:5-12. " He was pierced for our transgressions…and by his wounds we are healed." Also, …he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." Sounds like Jesus and Christianity to me. And thats just Chapter 53. Also Isaiah 7:14 " A virgin will be with child and bear a son, and will call his name Immanuel (God with us). Also Is 9:6-7. And the earliest prophesy of Christ, Genesis 3:15 where it speaks of a man born from the seed of a woman (not the seed of a man). Read Psalm 22; and then read the passion story of Christ on the cross. Got to be him. Yet it was written by King David. Jesus does have a lineage back to David; just read the geneology in Matthew.
I know that the Jewish people were looking for a different type of messiah, and still are. One who would conquer by the sword and vanquish the enemies of God. When Jesus did come, they didn’t recognize him because he conquered in a different way the first time he was here; through is death and ressurection he gave us all a chance at life, not just the hebrews. But the second coming he will conquer with the sword, just as the jews expect the messiah to. Then, every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that he is Lord.
I hope that no one took Brock’s post seriously. There are plenty of Christian scholars who are literate in bibiblical Hebrew. It’s not like Hebrew is a big mystery to Christian scholars.
I would like to know what evidence Brock has for his beliefs in the Torah as being the true word of God. It is probably just blind faith. Christiantiy is the only religion that can be supported with objective reasons.