Is Soy Really That Bad?

I’ve been reading up on this recently, and all of the conflict between various sources is confusing as hell. It’s good - good for the heart and your body! It’s bad - gives you breasts! It’s all over the place.

Now, my family is almost 100% Han Chinese - we can trace this back for about two thousand years on my father’s side, and five or six hundred on my mother’s (there’s probably some Mongol there.) With a traditional Chinese diet, there’s a fair deal of soy products in soy milk, tofu and the like. However, it’s never been the staple it’s often made out to be - not sure about my mom, but my dad literally lived off sweet potatoes and rice up until college, where he may or may not have started taking in protein at some point. Not sure, as he was dirt poor even before he entered college - at any rate, it’s a moot point.

The reason this concerns me is because of my own soy intake. I’m largely lactose-intolerant (I cannot take in anymore dairy than a few slices of pizza without getting the runs) and so, throughout my life I’ve substituted soy milk. Again, I’ve never taken it in such large quantities as to be seriously worried about it. But all of this reading as led me to reconsider my own petite ‘moobs’, which I figured was skin that had yet to shrink back from rapid weight loss about a year ago. At the moment, I’m using soy protein powder to supplement my normal intake, because it’s what I have offhand. (I do plan on switching to whey once I finish my supply, however.)

Should I really be worried about my soy intake? I go through maybe one, one-and-a-half half-gallon cartons of Silk soymilk every week, at most, and 87? grams of soy protein daily. Is this too much and should I cut back or cut out soy entirely?

87 gm/day is probably too much for a young man. The real problem is that soy is a stealth ingredient that is used as a cheap filler in packaged foods of many types. Americans point to the health of the asian people to prove it’s OK but we actually eat much more than they do. I love my spicy Ma Po Tofu dish but I only have it as an occasional treat. Plus, I don’t eat any processed, packaged foods so I don’t worry overmuch about it.

Buy your whey protein now and use up the rest of the soy by mixing a small amount of it in to dilute any possible effects.

Outside of your ‘moobs’ (which, more than likely, could be the result of your current level of development/rapid weight loss rather than your soy intake…but funny you call them petite), is there any reason for you to believe your current level of soy consumption may be having a detrimental effect upon your body?

I, personally, have never heard of anyone getting moobies from soy (or from plastics, but that’s another issue entirely!)…but that’s just me.

How old are you, anyhow?

Judging from the pics in his profile he needs to put on about 50 pounds of muscle and maybe then he’ll be able to tell if he has a genuine case of moobs that not related to simply having no muscle.

[quote]Wimpy wrote:
Judging from the pics in his profile he needs to put on about 50 pounds of muscle and maybe then he’ll be able to tell if he has a genuine case of moobs that not related to simply having no muscle. [/quote]

Sheesh, for some reason, I didn’t even notice those pics when I checked his profile (stopped after reading his stats).

I completely agree.

I’ve read mixed things about soy protein powders in general. And just the protein powder! I’ve been using soy protein due to whey’s price, for about 5 weeks now. I personaly haven’t noticed much of anything.

I’m switching back to whey. Just reading that soy protein can increase estrogen levels, cardiovascular load, etc was enough to steer me away from buying the stuff ever again.

I would say try switching slowly off of it. There is almond milk you can buy, which to my knowledge, is a hell lot better for you than soy milk. And since you are lactose intolerant - get egg protein or eat lots of eggs! Gemma protein wasn’t so bad when I tried it, if you can get over the taste, and is also alot better than soy protein. There are lots of options out there - just keep poking around! Best of luck!

[quote]anonym wrote:
Wimpy wrote:
Judging from the pics in his profile he needs to put on about 50 pounds of muscle and maybe then he’ll be able to tell if he has a genuine case of moobs that not related to simply having no muscle.

Sheesh, for some reason, I didn’t even notice those pics when I checked his profile (stopped after reading his stats).

I completely agree.[/quote]

For me it was his avatar that gave it away. He’s a complete pencil neck. No offense meant, blue_star_cadet, I wish you the best of luck with your goals whatever they may be, but I’m just stating a fact.

[quote]Kruiser wrote:
87 gm/day is probably too much for a young man. The real problem is that soy is a stealth ingredient that is used as a cheap filler in packaged foods of many types. Americans point to the health of the asian people to prove it’s OK but we actually eat much more than they do. I love my spicy Ma Po Tofu dish but I only have it as an occasional treat. Plus, I don’t eat any processed, packaged foods so I don’t worry overmuch about it.

Buy your whey protein now and use up the rest of the soy by mixing a small amount of it in to dilute any possible effects.[/quote]

I eat very little to no packaged foods, and I always check ingredients - I think all I have a regular basis is whole-grain bread, natural peanut butter, organic jam and Quaker Oats. Would it still be an issue with those foods?

[quote]anonym wrote:
Outside of your ‘moobs’ (which, more than likely, could be the result of your current level of development/rapid weight loss rather than your soy intake…but funny you call them petite), is there any reason for you to believe your current level of soy consumption may be having a detrimental effect upon your body?

I, personally, have never heard of anyone getting moobies from soy (or from plastics, but that’s another issue entirely!)…but that’s just me.

How old are you, anyhow?[/quote]

Petite is a hilarious word, why would you not use it? :smiley: Just the various articles on T-Nation and other sites about it increasing estrogen, but after reading the newest article I’m not too worried about it, I would have to be taking in several hundred times more grams of soy than I am now.

15, super underage.

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:
I would say try switching slowly off of it. There is almond milk you can buy, which to my knowledge, is a hell lot better for you than soy milk. And since you are lactose intolerant - get egg protein or eat lots of eggs! Gemma protein wasn’t so bad when I tried it, if you can get over the taste, and is also alot better than soy protein. There are lots of options out there - just keep poking around! Best of luck![/quote]

I’m starting to eat lots of whole eggs. Six for lunch today! And I’ll definitely look into almond milk, I’ve had it before and it tastes pretty decent, but it’s quite expensive for the amount I consume. And thank you!

[quote]Wimpy wrote:
For me it was his avatar that gave it away. He’s a complete pencil neck. No offense meant, blue_star_cadet, I wish you the best of luck with your goals whatever they may be, but I’m just stating a fact. [/quote]

No offense taken. I actually used to be very overweight (190 at the highest, maybe as much as 200) and then dropped to about 155, then bulked up somewhat to where I am now. I’m actually aiming for about krazykoukides. :smiley:

I don’t see any man boobs at all. Doesn’t look like gyno in the least, thusly it’s probably nothing too serious.

The thing with soy is people say it raises estrogen (thusly getting gyno). I don’t know about how far it would raise it.

I havent read all this, but the anti-soy protein war is over. Its just more BS propaganda by companies that dont sell it.

If its good enough for Robert dos Remedios, its good enough for you.

If you even look at soy, your testicle will drop off.

Seriously, just avoid the hidden soy. Soy in small amounts isn’t going to make you keel over from the excessive strain put on your back from the DD’s.

I wouldn’t be worried too much about the soy if I were you - despite what the articles say, I have really never heard of anyone experiencing noticeable estrogenic effects from it.

That being said, it is good that you are increasing the amount of eggs you are eating. Eggs are bad ass.

Don’t fret too much about your petite moobs, either (if you even have any…I don’t notice them). Not only are you young, but, as Wimpy mentioned earlier, your body composition isn’t such that you should put too much thought into it. Of course, there is a thread in the T-Cell that talks about gyno (You’ve Got Male…Titties) if you want to learn a little more about it (just promise us you won’t freak out after reading it…you aren’t yet at the age or level of development where you can justifiably worry about it).

Soy was my main protein source during my college days. I never had boobies or any other complications from it. If you’re that worried about it, switch to Lactaid milk so you won’t turn your ass into a firehose.

Make sure that you use Whey Isolate. Whey Concentrate still has some lactose, so if you’re that sensitive, there will be trouble. :wink:

[quote]Nikiforos wrote:
Make sure that you use Whey Isolate. Whey Concentrate still has some lactose, so if you’re that sensitive, there will be trouble. ;)[/quote]

I’m not too sensitive - I can have a certain amount of cooked dairy, ex: pizza, but a cup of milk and I’ll spend an uncomfortable amount of time on the toliet. :confused: Anyways, I’ll look into that.

[quote]blue_star_cadet wrote:
Nikiforos wrote:
Make sure that you use Whey Isolate. Whey Concentrate still has some lactose, so if you’re that sensitive, there will be trouble. :wink:

I’m not too sensitive - I can have a certain amount of cooked dairy, ex: pizza, but a cup of milk and I’ll spend an uncomfortable amount of time on the toliet. :confused: Anyways, I’ll look into that.[/quote]

As mentioned, you might also want to look into Lactaid (milk with the added lactase enzyme). It’s about $4.00 per half gallon out where I am, though…I don’t know how that stacks up to almond milk.

I find it tastes better than regular milk.

Most current studies show that soy has essentially no effect on estrogen levels

[quote]collin281 wrote:
Most current studies show that soy has essentially no effect on estrogen levels[/quote]

But the same can not be said for testosterone levels.

Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2007 Apr;16(4):829-33. Links

Clinical and biological activity of soy protein powder supplementation in healthy male volunteers.

Goodin S, Shen F, Shih WJ, Dave N, Kane MP, Medina P, Lambert GH, Aisner J, Gallo M, DiPaola RS.

Department of Medicine, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey/Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, New Brunswick, NJ 08903-2681, USA. goodin@umdnj.edu

PURPOSE: To determine if a commonly used soy protein supplement exhibits biological activity in vivo and in vitro, we evaluated an over-the-counter soy protein powder supplement using blood from healthy male volunteers and in an estrogen receptor in vitro assay.

SUBJECTS AND METHODS: We recruited healthy male volunteers 18 years of age or older that were in good health. Treatment consisted of consuming two scoops (56 g) of pure soy protein powder (Puritan’s Pride, Oakdale, NY) daily for 28 days. Serum testosterone and luteinizing hormone (LH) levels were collected on days -7, 0, 14, and 28 of therapy, and day 42.

A reporter estrogen receptor (ER) assay was used to determine the effect on ER-beta and ER-alpha in vitro. RESULTS: Twelve subjects were enrolled with a mean age of 32.25 years (range 25 to 47). Serum testosterone decreased 19%(+/-22%) during the 4-week use of soy protein powder (P = 0.021) and increased within 2 weeks after we discontinued soy protein powder.

Serum LH concentrations decreased during the 4-week use of soy protein powder then increased within 2 weeks after we stopped the soy protein powder, but the changes did not reach statistical significance (P = 0.20). Soy protein powder was found to induce agonist activity to ER-beta using a reporter estrogen receptor assay in yeast.

CONCLUSION: Soy protein powder decreases serum testosterone levels in healthy men and acts as an ER-beta agonist; the significance of this biological effect with respect to cancer prevention needs further study.

Eur J Clin Nutr. 2003 Jan;57(1):100-6.

Dietary supplements of soya flour lower serum testosterone concentrations and improve markers of oxidative stress in men.

Gardner-Thorpe D, O’Hagen C, Young I, Lewis SJ.

Department of Medicine, University Hospital of Wales, Cardiff, Wales, UK.

OBJECTIVE: We examined the effects on serum sex steroids, lipids and markers of oxidative stress of supplementing the diets of healthy male volunteers with scones made with soya flour.

DESIGN: A randomized placebo controlled cross-over trial.

SETTING: University Hospital of Wales.

SUBJECTS: Twenty volunteers recruited by advertisement.

INTERVENTIONS: Male volunteers ate three scones a day in addition to their normal diet for a period of 6 weeks.

The scones were made with either wheat or soya flour (containing 120 mg/day of isoflavones). Blood was analysed for sex steroids (testosterone, dihydro-testosterone, oestradiol, oestrone, sex hormone binding globulin, albumin and the concentration of non-protein bound sex steroids were calculated), lipid profile (total cholesterol, high density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglycerides) and measures of oxidative stress (hydroperoxides, susceptibility of LDL to oxidation with copper and myeloperoxidase).

RESULTS: The volunteers’ mean age was 35.6 (s.d. 11.2) y. Total serum testosterone fell in volunteers taking the soya scones (19.3-18.2 nmol/l; 95% CI 1.01, 1.12; P=0.03). No significant changes were seen in the concentrations of the other serum sex steroids, albumin or sex hormone binding globulin throughout the study.

Significant improvements in two of the three markers of oxidative stress were seen in volunteers taking soya scones. Lag time for myeloperoxidase rose from 55.0 to 68.0 min (95% CI -16.0, -3.5; P=0.009) and the presence of hydroperoxides decreased from 2.69 to 2.34 micro mol/l (95% CI 0.12, 0.71; P=0.009). There were no changes seen in serum triglycerides or cholesterol.

CONCLUSIONS: We have shown that soya supplements reduce serum testosterone and improve markers of oxidative stress. These findings provide a putative mechanism by which soya supplements could protect against prostatic disease and atherosclerosis. Further dietary studies with clinical end points are warranted.

J Nutr. 2005 Mar;135(3):584-91.

Soy protein isolates of varying isoflavone content exert minor effects on serum reproductive hormones in healthy young men.

Dillingham BL, McVeigh BL, Lampe JW,
Duncan AM.
Department of Human Biology and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada.

Inverse associations between soy and prostate cancer and the contribution of hormones to prostate cancer prompted the current study to determine whether soy protein could alter serum hormones in men.

Thirty-five men consumed milk protein isolate (MPI), low-isoflavone soy protein isolate (SPI) (low-iso SPI; 1.64 +/- 0.19 mg isoflavones/d), and high-iso SPI (61.7 +/- 7.35 mg isoflavones/d) for 57 d each in a randomized crossover design. Twenty-four-hour urine samples indicated that urinary isoflavones were significantly increased by the high-iso SPI relative to the low-iso SPI and MPI.

Serum collected on d 1, 29, and 57 of each treatment revealed that dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and DHT/testosterone were significantly decreased by the low-iso SPI [9.4% (P = 0.036) and 9.0% (P = 0.004), respectively] and the high-iso SPI [15% (P = 0.047) and 14% (P = 0.013), respectively], compared with the MPI at d 57.

Other significant effects included a decrease in testosterone by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI (P = 0.023) and high-iso SPI (P = 0.020) at d 29; an increase in dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI at d 29 (P = 0.001) and relative to the MPI (P = 0.0003) and high-iso SPI (P = 0.005) at d 57; and increases in estradiol and estrone by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI at d 57 (P = 0.010 and P = 0.005, respectively).

In conclusion, soy protein, regardless of isoflavone content, decreased DHT and DHT/testosterone with minor effects on other hormones, providing evidence for some effects of soy protein on hormones. The relevance of the magnitude of these effects to future prostate cancer risk requires further investigation.

[quote]blue_star_cadet wrote:
Nikiforos wrote:
Make sure that you use Whey Isolate. Whey Concentrate still has some lactose, so if you’re that sensitive, there will be trouble. :wink:

I’m not too sensitive - I can have a certain amount of cooked dairy, ex: pizza, but a cup of milk and I’ll spend an uncomfortable amount of time on the toliet. :confused: Anyways, I’ll look into that.[/quote]

I’m lactose intolerant and have had good results with Metabolic Drive. It seems lower in lactose than most other products I’ve used.

Holy crap! thanks for the info Mr.Sniffles. Interesting stuff.