FARRRRRRRRR OUT…
I JUST READ THIS:
DOMS is due to remodeling
MY ANSWER: however DOMS can make u BIGGER or SMALLER. more muscle fibers. less muscle fibers. DOMS is the ADAPTATION PROCESS
To me, to the people i train, i always in the end just break it down like this : Muscle growth comes from a need, not a desire. If you arent placing a great strain on a muscle, you wont achieve great growth. You gotta break the muscle deep, and that means you will be feeling it the next couple of days.
I mean yea, volume training has its uses aswell, but nothing really gets me like heavy weight/low rep, and thats where you get that fantastic soreness. Just my .02
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Yeah, you didn’t make substantial strength gains because you were focused on DOMs. What’s hard to understand about that?
Are you even jacked?[/quote]
hey, thats my line!
correlation does not imply causation.
for example, the increase of ice cream sales is correlated with the increase of swimsuit sales. but does the increase of ice cream sales imply an increase in swimsuit sales? no, it just got fuckin hot.
someone else already said it. change and adaptation cause soreness. and growth. theyre correlated, but they dont imply each other.
[quote]hYperTrOphY_07 wrote:
I have generally felt that soreness is a good indicator of the damage caused by a workout. And assuming diet and rest is optimal: growth. However, I do not believe that soreness is necessary for growth. My side delts are never sore, but that isn’t to say they haven’t grown. [/quote]
I read recently somewhere that shoulders heal alot faster than most other muscles. Might be why you haven’t felt any soreness…just for shits n giggles lol.
…And there was a thread similar to this recently, “Does Size=Strength” or something like that. This thread reminds me alot of that.
[quote]GETTODECHOPPAAA wrote:
…And there was a thread similar to this recently, “Does Size=Strength” or something like that. This thread reminds me alot of that.[/quote]
Yes, many of the arguments are the same because I happened to write them. This is the thread you’re referring to:
Well, I’m sure many of us here judge our recovery based on the level of soreness/DOMS we are experiencing, so how the hell do we know if we are fully recovered to train again when we never get sore? Or is recovery one of those things we have to experiment for yourself crap, which by the way is rarely accurate.
Live and learn.
You should know by that first warm-up set how the session will likely go. Soreness is not needed for progress.
Needed recovery is individualized, is dependant on the load used previously and the volume used previously. You could not even be sore but still not recovered enough to repeat that same exact session.
Most people spend 10 years just lifting before they actually figure out how to lift. For some it’s just a matter of months. When you lift, don’t worry so much about the weight on the bar. Worry more about what is happening within the muscle. Once you understand that you’ll understand yourself.
As I said…
Live and learn.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
No one knows for sure the exact mechanism or trigger of muscle hypertrophy. It may be a chemical signal, physical signal, both, an undiscovered paracrine hormone may have a huge role, who knows. There are a lot of very plausible to probable theories, but no one really knows. If they claim they do, they are trying to sell you something.[/quote]
You don’t need to know the theoretical “exact” mechanism. Perfection is not required here.
All you need to know is what works best, most of the time.
The bottom line is that training to elicit soreness is the best known way to trigger hypertrophy.
It is much better, in that regard, than training for progressive overload (i.e. lifting to get stronger).
People should stop listening to strength coaches for advice on how to get bigger. They should also make up their minds as to which quality they’re after.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Is muscle soreness necessary for growth?
I say yes. Absolutely, indisputably, necessarily so.
Muscle soreness is an indication of breakdown. Without having been broken down, the stimulus for growth simply does not exist.
I see no alternative explanation to this which conforms to basic physiology.
I am a personal trainer and I tell my clients that DOMS is a fantastic way to judge the effectiveness of workouts.
I would like to know if anyone disagrees with me and if they can produce a credible, opposing argument.
Let’s get it on.
If you are a trainer you should know that the recovery is what builds muscle, not the breakdown of muscle. And typically, any workout where you are very sore later will negatively effect the next workout.
So while soreness may make you think you did a good job in the weight room, it may actually hurt your recovery in the long run and not produce the results you want.
So personally I would look to progression in load or volume as an indicator of progress, not being sore. Because continual soreness will not help you recover, and recovery is where it all takes place.
[/quote]
Ah something is is simple and makes sense; I feel so much better now.
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
MODOK wrote:
The bottom line is that training to elicit soreness is the best known way to trigger hypertrophy.
It is much better, in that regard, than training for progressive overload (i.e. lifting to get stronger).
[/quote]
No it’s not. End thread. End Nominal Prospect.
I am not sure if soreness is necessary for growth but it is a good indicator for muscle targeting. When I try a new movement I usally get sore in specific muscles and that lets me know where the exercise is hitting. It is not an exact method because other assisting muscles might be stressed differently during compound movements.
Hey guys this is my first post but I’ve been reading tmuscle articles for awhile now. I was looking through some old articles by charles poliquin and I found this…
Q: My old training partner used to say, “If you ain’t sore, then you didn’t work hard enough!” Since our main goal was to induce hypertrophy, is that statement accurate? Do you have to get really sore to grow?
A: I would agree with your old training partner, up to a certain point. The question comes down to what hypertrophy is, exactly. As stated by Canadian exercise physiologist Duncan MacDougall, hypertrophy is “a biological adaptation to a biological stimulus.” The biological stimulus is generally a microscopic tear associated with the lowering of loads.
It’s been clearly shown many times in scientific literature that the eccentric contractions, not the concentric contractions, are responsible for tissue remodeling, and lowering results in tears that are often associated with pain. Maybe we should get used to saying, “Hey, dude, I’m going to the gym to lower some weights and get big.”
That’s the main reason why, in the early '80s, concentric-only isokinetic devices, like the Mini-Gym and Hydra-Gym machines, failed to stay in the iron game market. Since those machines didn’t provide eccentric contractions, trainees failed to make significant gains over longer periods of time when compared to free weights.
There are definitely some ways to pair your exercises to create greater muscle soreness and, thus, more hypertrophy, but you’ve got to be a real masochist to want to learn them. However, all of the possible pairings go beyond the scope of this column, but I generally make a point to address them in my seminars.
Thanks for that contribution. I’m going to add it to my collection of training anecdotes.
I don’t want to post a link to another website on here but if you google Charles Poliquin workouts a thread should come up where someone has gathered most of his articles from TMuscle together. I’ve been reading several a day and its going to take me another week or two to get through them all. Really great stuff.
[quote]CallMeSolace wrote:
I don’t want to post a link to another website on here but if you google Charles Poliquin workouts a thread should come up where someone has gathered most of his articles from TMuscle together. I’ve been reading several a day and its going to take me another week or two to get through them all. Really great stuff. [/quote]
Speaking of Poliquin, let’s listen to him weigh in on this topic:
[quote]Unless athletes start complaining of tendonitis, they’re not training hard enough. They should train until they’re literally depressed, then back off.
In other words, if you’re not making progress in the gym, smash yourself into the ground for two weeks â?? purposefully overtrain until you’re mentally depressed and your body is about to shut down â?? then take five days off. When you come back into the gym, you’ll hit new personal bests.
Hypertrophy, for example, is an adaptation to a biological stress. If something doesn’t kill you, then the more you put stress on it, the more it’ll adapt. If the .22 caliber doesn’t work, use a .50 caliber.[/quote]
- Charles Poliquin, The Super-Accumulation Program
I agree with Poliquin and Poliquin agrees with me.
OK I want to know something about the study posted. How do you know that a rabbit has DOMS?
blah blah blah…
I very very rarely get sore, and it doesn’t seem to have hindered my gains.
In fact, the rare times that I have been sore have been when I’ve fucked up on my nutrition, especially the “peri workout” type. So in my experience, soreness often indicates shitty nutrition.