Is Soreness Necessary for Growth?

Training Bodybuilding
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The times I am most sore are 1, when I take a week off on my first workout back. 2, when I get wasted the night of a hard workout.

So according to the OP’s logical I should drink nonstop and workout once a week.

Sure DOMS are an indictator of trauma to the muscle, but they are also an indicator of slower recovery than usual.

Going based solely on DOMS will not get you bigger, putting more weight on the bar and on your body is a far better indicator. As I’m sure has been stated ad nauseum over the past 6 pages.

142

wait a second. there’s no answer as to the exact mechanism of DOMS, or even hypertrophy. in such cases, i think personal experience is important.

for me and others i’m sure, constant DOMS is a sign of bad rest/nutrition. sure enough we do experience it after getting back in the gym post-break and when we switch things up, but the serious DOMS just isn’t there during the whole program. if you get mild-severe DOMS, you just won’t be able to train enough to elicit hypertrophy.

from my understanding, and correct me if i’m wrong, myofibrillar hypertrophy (the type of hypertrophy where new sarcomeres are laid down) results from training for strength/power ie moving more weight during the concentric and eccentric phases. this is supposedly the sort of training that causes microtrauma and DOMS and causes new contractile protein to be laid down. from personal experience i barely ever get very sore training like this (using conventional 2 seconds for eccentric phase and 1 second for the concentric phase, and trying to move as much weight as possible)

something doesn’t add up here for me. you’re telling me strength/power training (high weight/intensity and low reps) causes microtrauma and DOMS and stimulates myofibrillar hypertrophy, yet i don’t get sore with this type of training. on the other hand, training for strength endurance (higher reps, less weight, less rest) which according to my understanding stimulated sarcoplasmic hypertrophy gets me sore. even lactate training gets me more sore than strength/power training. maybe it’s my body type but i know others who feel this way as well. it’d be helpful if others on this forum would share their experiences. this makes me believe that there are many mechanisms involved in DOMS and that microtrauma isn’t the only one. and for sure microtrauma isn’t the only stimuli for hypertrophy.

anyone who has done >100% 1RM eccentrics training for more than a week, please tell us, did this type of training get you more sore than what you usually do? and what do you usually do?

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If you don’t feel like shit after a workout then it means you hadn’t trained hard enough. I’m making my best progress this year by training balls to the wall. Yes I feel like shit after a workout. That means tired and sore. If you do feel like that then eat the soreness away. You’ll build muscle like that. Duh.

144

well i just read this: Re-evaluation of exercise-induced muscle soreness : an immunohistochemical and ultrastructural study

it answered a lot of questions, but it also confused me further. everyone should read this.

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Interesting read, but generally all summarized here for you…

146

Regulary inducing muscle soreness is absolutely not necessary for muscle growth. The best way to grow is to lift heavy weights for low reps without going to failure. This barely gets you sore if at all, and not nearly as sore as high reps to failure or even low reps to failure. I know from personal experience and I know from the experts on this website. When I stopped training to failure and started doing what I mentioned above, my strength gains increased like crazy and so did my numbers in the high reps when I went back to test them. My bodyfat also decreased; I attribute this to less overtraining-induced cortisol output and increased metabolism from stronger muscles. Going to failure fatigues the nervous system. This slows down recovery and makes you weaker for the rest of the session. It can also put you in a bad mood, mess up your sleep, and make you feel run-down. The people who mentioned nutrition, especially peri-workout nutrition are also right on the money.

If you like to bench until you can’t do 10 good push-ups, you are approaching hypertrophy the wrong way. If you can do 10 good pull-ups and you do drop sets until you can’t curl a 20 lb dumbell, same thing. I had a hard time accepting this. You should be almost as strong at the end of your workout as you were at the beginning; losing a few reps, not a few plates. . .

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[quote]toots27mkc wrote:
Regulary inducing muscle soreness is absolutely not necessary for muscle growth. The best way to grow is to lift heavy weights for low reps without going to failure. This barely gets you sore if at all, and not nearly as sore as high reps to failure or even low reps to failure. I know from personal experience and I know from the experts on this website. When I stopped training to failure and started doing what I mentioned above, my strength gains increased like crazy and so did my numbers in the high reps. My bodyfat also decreased, probably due to less cortisol from overtraining and increased metabolism from stronger muscles. Going to failure fatigues the nervous system. This slows down recovery and makes you weaker for the rest of the session. If you like to bench until you can’t do 10 good push-ups, you are approaching hypertrophy the wrong way. If you can do 10 pull-up and you do drop sets until you can’t curl a 20 lb dumbell, same thing. You should be almost as strong at the end of your workout as you were at the beginning. Maybe losing a few reps, not a few plates. . .
This low rep, not going to failure thing is all for strength and hypertrophy, not conditioning. Although, when done properly, gets you in good condition.[/quote]

There is no SURE fire way to achieve hypertroph. There are many paths to get hypertroph 'nuff said

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read articles by:

Christain Thibadeau
Chad Waterbury

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[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Is muscle soreness necessary for growth?

I say yes. Absolutely, indisputably, necessarily so.

Muscle soreness is an indication of breakdown. Without having been broken down, the stimulus for growth simply does not exist.

I see no alternative explanation to this which conforms to basic physiology.

I am a personal trainer and I tell my clients that DOMS is a fantastic way to judge the effectiveness of workouts.

I would like to know if anyone disagrees with me and if they can produce a credible, opposing argument.

Let’s get it on.

I almost never get sore but I still grow. The end.

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You’re still getting growth whether u feel sore or not. Sure if you get into the gym and u bust ur ass on a leg day and are hobbling around for 4days because u hit it hard ur benefiting. But there are times when i’ll have the same intensity and i dont get as sore or the soreness is gone maybe 2 days later instead of 4-5days.

Im a true believer that if you combine the proper carb/protein after a workout it will diminish soreness. If i eat a hearty meal following a back or leg workout and eat every few hrs i will recover quicker and the soreness wont be as bad. If i bust myself in the gym and dont get the nutrition i need i’ll be as sore as a pretty boy in prison.

151

Personally I only get soreness in my back and my legs. After chest day, even really heavy workouts, I barely feel it, but leg and back days I can feel it up to 4 days after. Same with Shoulders too, I guess they just recover really fast.

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[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
CallMeSolace wrote:
I don’t want to post a link to another website on here but if you google Charles Poliquin workouts a thread should come up where someone has gathered most of his articles from TMuscle together. I’ve been reading several a day and its going to take me another week or two to get through them all. Really great stuff.

Speaking of Poliquin, let’s listen to him weigh in on this topic:

Unless athletes start complaining of tendonitis, they’re not training hard enough. They should train until they’re literally depressed, then back off.

In other words, if you’re not making progress in the gym, smash yourself into the ground for two weeks â?? purposefully overtrain until you’re mentally depressed and your body is about to shut down â?? then take five days off. When you come back into the gym, you’ll hit new personal bests.

Hypertrophy, for example, is an adaptation to a biological stress. If something doesn’t kill you, then the more you put stress on it, the more it’ll adapt. If the .22 caliber doesn’t work, use a .50 caliber.

  • Charles Poliquin, The Super-Accumulation Program

I agree with Poliquin and Poliquin agrees with me. [/quote]

What is truley depressing is that you actually read all these articles yet still don’t get like the fact that tendonitis and muscle soreness are different.

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[quote]GluteusGigantis wrote:
Interesting read, but generally all summarized here for you…

http://tnation.tmuscle.com/...scle_adaptation [/quote]

My thread predates yours so what makes you think yours is superior? The fact that you made it in the pompous ass forum?

I read what you wrote and the following became apparent:

  1. You take a research-based approach whereas I’m more concerned with employing logical reasoning based “what is known to work” and real world anecdotes.

  2. You come to the opposite conclusion that I do about soreness, although you admit that the scientific evidence is lacking to make definitive statements.

I don’t think you’re going to solve this issue by looking at scientific studies. That’s precisely why I choose take a real world approach.

Unfortunate though it may be, most research is out of touch with modern-day “gym wisdom”. The cumulative experience of lifters has contributed far more to the advancement of the sport than has scientific research.

So you mean to tell me that, in the above quote, Poliquin was actually drawing a distinction between regular muscle soreness and tendonitis and stating that trainees should specifically seek to attain the latter, not the former? That’s completely ludicrous. I suggest you read it again until you realize its absurdity.

I recognize the difference between the two entirely, as does Poliquin. Tendonitis is an example of “bad soreness”, which should be avoided at all costs because it leads to downtime or overuse injuries. DOMS is an example of “good soreness” of the type which Poliquin and I both advocate striving for in every workout.

Poliquin says train until you get tendonitis but he doesn’t mean it literally. What he really means is train until you get both immediate and residual soreness in every workout. In other words, feel your training.

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[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote on 7/26/09:
People should stop listening to strength coaches for advice on how to get bigger. They should also make up their minds as to which quality they’re after.[/quote]

How awfully prescient in light of the articles that have been appearing on the main page of late.

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OBoile wrote:What is truley depressing is that you actually read all these articles yet still don’t get like the fact that tendonitis and muscle soreness are different.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
So you mean to tell me that, in the above quote, Poliquin was actually drawing a distinction between regular muscle soreness and tendonitis
[/quote]
Yes, that is why he says “tendonitis” and not “muscle soreness”. Sadly, I’m sure you still won’t figure this out.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
and stating that trainees should specifically seek to attain the latter, not the former?[/quote]
No, he is saying that trainees should be pushing themselves to the point where they experience aches and pains as a side effect of training - not to actively seek them out.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
I recognize the difference between the two entirely,
[/quote]
Sadly, I’m not sure you do. That or you deliberately are miss-quoting someone. On second though, that does seem to be your MO.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
as does Poliquin.
[/quote]
On that at least we agree.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Tendonitis is an example of “bad soreness”, which should be avoided at all costs because it leads to downtime or overuse injuries.
[/quote]
It doesn’t lead to an overuse injury. It is an overuse injury. Again, I’m not sure you know what it is exactly.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
DOMS is an example of “good soreness” of the type which Poliquin and I both advocate striving for in every workout.
[/quote]
You advocate it. I’ve seen no evidence that Poliquin does. In fact, I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t want athletes getting sore during the competitive season.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Poliquin says train until you get tendonitis but he doesn’t mean it literally. What he really means is train until you get both immediate and residual soreness in every workout. In other words, feel your training.[/quote]
Since you seem to be able to read his mind, can you please tell me what he was thinking when he decided to write:

[quote] Charles Poliquin wrote:
Unless athletes start complaining of tendonitis, they’re not training hard enough. They should train until they’re literally depressed, then back off.
[/quote]
and not:

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
train until you get both immediate and residual soreness in every workout. In other words, feel your training.
[/quote]

I mean, to me Charles’ statement is clearly referencing the two-factor model and super compensation (as is the general theme of the article), but clearly you’re able to figure out what he really means - even if he writes something completely different. Tell me, how do I aquire this amazing mind reading ability?

156

[quote]OBoile wrote:What is truley depressing is that you actually read all these articles yet still don’t get like the fact that tendonitis and muscle soreness are different.
…
It doesn’t lead to an overuse injury. It is an overuse injury. Again, I’m not sure you know what it is exactly.[/quote]

First of all, “tendonitis”, when used in this context, is something of a catch-all term that can refer to several distinct conditions of localized inflammation or low grade soft tissue tears, with actual tendonitis and bursitis among them. It is not necessary to identify precisely which condition is present so long as one is capable of distinguishing it from “regular” muscle soreness, which is fairly easy to do.

The rule is this: Muscles should hurt, joints and ligaments shouldn’t. That’s what “good pain vs bad pain” is all about.

[quote]OBoile wrote:Yes, that is why he says “tendonitis” and not “muscle soreness”. Sadly, I’m sure you still won’t figure this out.
…
You advocate it. I’ve seen no evidence that Poliquin does. In fact, I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t want athletes getting sore during the competitive season.[/quote]

Now comes the hard part for you. Make a convincing argument for how someone could train so hard that they complain of tendonitis, yet not feel any other type of soreness. You’re suggesting that they basically wake up one day and everything feels fine except that they have tendonitis. That doesn’t happen in the real world. But go ahead and try to explain it, give me a laugh.

[quote]OBoile wrote:
No, he is saying that trainees should be pushing themselves to the point where they experience aches and pains as a side effect of training - not to actively seek them out.[/quote]

The only possible distinction here is in whether the soreness resulting from training is immediate or residual. If you’ll notice, I raised this point in my last commentary. Poliquin does not articulate a preference for either type of soreness, but his overall message is clear: Soreness from training is not something to be avoided.

The distinction between “actively seeking out” aches and pains and deliberately structuring a training routine so that they occur “as a side effect” of such is hardly worth mentioning. Surely, you can see that?

[quote]OBoile wrote:
Since you seem to be able to read his mind, can you please tell me what he was thinking when he decided to write:

Unless athletes start complaining of tendonitis, they’re not training hard enough. They should train until they’re literally depressed, then back off.[/quote]

I can’t read his mind, but I can read his language and interpret it. Which I’ll do now:

Tendonitis is an extreme form of soreness. Regular soreness should not deter athletes from training. Unless athletes start complaining of tendonitis, they’re not training hard enough.

The above paragraph sounds perfectly logical, nay? He didn’t need to put in the first sentence because it’s self-evident to most people.

[quote]OBoile wrote:
Sadly, I’m not sure you do. That or you deliberately are miss-quoting someone. On second though, that does seem to be your MO.[/quote]

Give me a break. A miniscule difference in choice of wording and I’m accused of misquoting others and distorting their meaning?

Great. Under that standard, I can’t quote anybody on this site to back up my arguments.

[quote]OBoile wrote:
I mean, to me Charles’ statement is clearly referencing the two-factor model and super compensation (as is the general theme of the article), but clearly you’re able to figure out what he really means - even if he writes something completely different. Tell me, how do I aquire this amazing mind reading ability?[/quote]

I did it with the amazing trick of realizing that you can’t get tendonitis without getting regular soreness first. The fact that you somehow overlooked this is stunning.

If Charles tells someone to train until they get tendonitis, he’s effectively telling them that they should be sore all the time. Or at the very least, they should not look upon soreness as something to avoid in their training. That may not be identical but it’s pretty damn close to what I’ve been saying, certainly close enough to be used as a supporting authority.