[quote]Scott M wrote:
Getting back to the original point somewhat, what do you think will allow you to go from let’s say 70 lb bells to eventually pressing the 130s for the same reps… multiple sets of leaving some in the tank tiring yourself out just to meet your set quota or forgetting the dogma for a bit and pick your heaviest weight and destroy it for just that one work set?[/quote]
Ooh, ooh, I know, I know. Pick me! Pick me!
[quote]Scott M wrote:
David to me your sets fell into option 1 because there is NO WAY you reached your limit after 5 reps and then were able to subsquently repeat it over and over again at the same level. You’d be a super human recovery freak if that were true. You had to stop short of your potential strength on that second set.
Gun to your head, rep or death, on that second set you couldn’t have pushed up the 6-7-8th reps maybe? Not the following sets as fatigue would set in eventually but the very first one you said you couldn’t do more than 5.
[/quote]
i guess im a super human ;).
i agree that i fall into “option 1” in that case, thats what i was trying to show…that even though the first set is hard the other sets will further exhaust the muscles. in my example your correct in the sense that i was short of using all potential strength but not by much. i could not have done a 6th rep for my 2nd-5th set, however the 5th was still more exhausing. a 6th rep would be 20% more work, on the 2nd set maybe i could have gotten another rep with say 5lb. of assistance but with the 5th set i might have needed 20lb. of assistance, get what i’m saying?
[quote]Scott M wrote:
Getting back to the original point somewhat, what do you think will allow you to go from let’s say 70 lb bells to eventually pressing the 130s for the same reps… multiple sets of leaving some in the tank tiring yourself out just to meet your set quota or forgetting the dogma for a bit and pick your heaviest weight and destroy it for just that one work set?[/quote]
well in that case were talking about strength, not hypertrophy. they are indirectly related but one doesnt necessarily mean the other. i do believe that ramping the weight and getting in that max set at the end would probably get you up to the higher weights faster. my understanding was that most lifters did multiple sets with the same reps most of the time though. how do u set up your sets?
what about you derek?
I still don’t believe you pushed yourself to your limits on those first few sets, but that’s beside the point here. I’m more interested in the second part.
[quote]well in that case were talking about strength, not hypertrophy. they are indirectly related but one doesnt necessarily mean the other. i do believe that ramping the weight and getting in that max set at the end would probably get you up to the higher weights faster. my understanding was that most lifters did multiple sets with the same reps most of the time though. how do u set up your sets?
what about you derek? [/quote]
I can’t remember if I said this before already but even if I did, it bares repeating. If you can…
Squat and deadlift 500 lbs for 12-15 reps
Incline Press 400 for 10-12 reps
Weighted chin 90 lbs for 12-15 reps
Military Press 335 12-15 reps
Stiff Leg Dead 405 10-12 reps
Barbell Curl 185 12-15 reps
Close Grip Press 365 12-15 reps
etc
You will be ENORMOUS. The biggest guys in the gyms around you and in the world are among the strongest nearly ever time. You can find a freak like a Paul Dillet who gets 20 inch arms with lazy 95 lb barbell curls, but he has 1 in a billion genetics. The fastest way to be the biggest you, is to move up to your genetic limit in strength for reps in key movements.
I don’t see the people around me(who are growing) doing multiple sets with the same weights. There are a handful of people that when I don’t see for several months(summer break, training schedules change) I am always impressed that they have gotten a little bigger. Those are chiefly powerlifters and what I would call “powerbuilders”, bodybuidlers who trian for strength. The guys who stay the same are using the same weights last time I saw them, the ones who are growing are always getting stronger over the long term. Now I don’t count warmup sets for people around me, just seeing random glimpses of their training or if I help spot but the common theme among them is more weight+consistency+time=bigger them.
I think derek and I do sets about the same, we both train in the same style.
That didn’t really answer the sets question very well haha.
We both DC train. My baseline sets for dead lifts yesterday looked like this. I had done a lat “width” movement prior so my back is fairly prepared to be trained, just needs movement specific warmup at that point. I just started this movement and will improve upon it biweekly for a long time
135x8
225x4-5
315x2-3
395x8(failure on 9th)
Next time deads come up(two weeks) I’ll give 405-425 a go and try to get at least 6 reps. I’ll keep going with this until I can no longer improve on this lift and then swap it for a row most likely. Obviously the first 3 sets were absolute jokes, I am simply getting myself accustomed and prepared for one all out set.
[quote]Scott M wrote:
my understanding was that most lifters did multiple sets with the same reps most of the time though. how do u set up your sets?
what about you derek?
I think derek and I do sets about the same, we both train in the same style.
[/quote]
Scott M is correct (as usual). I’m actually finding myself experiencing symptoms that I can only attribute to overtraining. I’m trying to remedy this by doing one set to absolute failure (after several non-fatiguing warm-ups) and NOT doing the rest-pause–at least until I figure it out.
But yeah, I’ve pretty much always been a huge proponent of one set to failure (and beyond). Low volume and moderate frequency.
But it seems the mere mention of HIT or anything related sends people running for cover. They most likely either don’t really understand the principles behind how I train (even moreso with DC) or think it sucks only because they really don’t know how or have the guts to push themselves into the life-or-death last reps scenario.
[quote]Scott M wrote:
135x8
225x4-5
315x2-3
395x8(failure on 9th)
[/quote]
Scott M may very well find himself in the upper 400’s before he needs to switch out that exercise. The thing to remember is that (I’m assuming) he’ll only switch it out when he can’t improve on it in either reps or weight for two workouts in a row (well, the next time it comes around to be more specific).
I’ll bet he’s never changed out an exercise or swapped rep ranges on DC for any other reason (such as "Hmmm, maybe I should change my reps range for no particular reason other than to confuse the muscle) than what I just mentioned.
There’s NO REASON to until that exercise has been “used up”. And even then it just goes back into rotation and he’ll hit even more PRs with it at a later date.
ok that clarified a lot, thanks.
derek he seems to have a different method than you though. from what i could tell me and scott were talking about a normal routine with either straight or ramping sets. but HIT and your routine are different right? he said he just finished a “width” exercise, so it seems like he does multiple exercises for a given muscle group (could be wrong since one is more upper back) while you only do 1 exercise per muscle group.
i could see that ramping set being good for muscle but i just cant imagine one real working set for a muscle once every 5-7 days being enough. if that was with 3 exercises or so with ramping sets i could see that working out fairly well and getting strength up well
[quote]David1991 wrote:
ok that clarified a lot, thanks.
derek he seems to have a different method than you though. from what i could tell me and scott were talking about a normal routine with either straight or ramping sets. but HIT and your routine are different right? he said he just finished a “width” exercise, so it seems like he does multiple exercises for a given muscle group (could be wrong since one is more upper back) while you only do 1 exercise per muscle group.
i could see that ramping set being good for muscle but i just cant imagine one real working set for a muscle once every 5-7 days being enough. if that was with 3 exercises or so with ramping sets i could see that working out fairly well and getting strength up well[/quote]
DC and what I’m doing now are VERY similar. I’ve been doing DC but not recovering and I’m working on that.
He (we) do two exercises for back, one “width” which would be what you could call vertical pulling like chins or pulldowns. Then there’s the back “width” exercise which would be a deadlift or heavy row.
Chest, delts, tris, biceps, hams and calves get one, quads and back get two. Quads is a heavy squat or leg press and then a 20 reps movement, many times a squat or leg press.
The back width exercise is one set rest-paused, the thickness exercise is two sets, one heavy and one heavier.
PLEASE do not doubt the effectiveness of one true set to failure. You have to witness it firsthand to get it but believe me, it’s enough.
[quote]derek wrote:
David1991 wrote:
ok that clarified a lot, thanks.
derek he seems to have a different method than you though. from what i could tell me and scott were talking about a normal routine with either straight or ramping sets. but HIT and your routine are different right? he said he just finished a “width” exercise, so it seems like he does multiple exercises for a given muscle group (could be wrong since one is more upper back) while you only do 1 exercise per muscle group.
i could see that ramping set being good for muscle but i just cant imagine one real working set for a muscle once every 5-7 days being enough. if that was with 3 exercises or so with ramping sets i could see that working out fairly well and getting strength up well
DC and what I’m doing now are VERY similar. I’ve been doing DC but not recovering and I’m working on that.
He (we) do two exercises for back, one “width” which would be what you could call vertical pulling like chins or pulldowns. Then there’s the back “width” exercise which would be a deadlift or heavy row.
Chest, delts, tris, biceps, hams and calves get one, quads and back get two. Quads is a heavy squat or leg press and then a 20 reps movement, many times a squat or leg press.
The back width exercise is one set rest-paused, the thickness exercise is two sets, one heavy and one heavier.
PLEASE do not doubt the effectiveness of one true set to failure. You have to witness it firsthand to get it but believe me, it’s enough.[/quote]
as i said i actually used to do multiple sets to failure for a muscle group, occasionally including “past failure” techniques. i was probably doing way too much for my level considering i was just starting when i did that (well about 4 months in)
for example i would do 3 sets of bench, last generally to failure. then superset db bench with cable flyes, 3rd set of each to complete positive failure. failure was supposed to be reached by the 3rd time i did the workout but sometimes i went too heavy and it would occur during the 2nd. then i would do it again 6 days later. that was some of my best muscle growth but i cant really attribute it to that method because i was eating way too much and it was my first real bulk
Derek didn’t you say in the past you wouldn’t recommend DC for me?
[quote]David1991 wrote:
i could see that ramping set being good for muscle but i just cant imagine one real working set for a muscle once every 5-7 days being enough. if that was with 3 exercises or so with ramping sets i could see that working out fairly well and getting strength up well[/quote]
Here’s a different perspective
If you could consolidate all your energy into just that one all out set for a bodypart, do you even have to wait 5-7 days to train it again? For me I trained back yesterday, because of the low amount of work sets I’m ready to train back again come Friday. It works out to be 3 times in 2 weeks, which obviously is 1.5 times more often than is standard. If I can get as much growth stimulus as I need and train 50% more often than those around me than in my mind I’m gaining(and have the results to show for it) at least 50% better than those around me. This reaches a point of diminishing returns as you can’t increase frequency too much or you compromise progress and recovery, but that 3 times in 2 weeks is a recovery niche most can fall into. With straight sets you could probably hit a muscle group twice a week every week, using the rest pause technique that I do that is too much.
Now using several exercises per bodypart ramping up to top sets we are exposing the muscle to more trauma, to me at the expensve of the growth stimulus frequency, but to each their own. This is what I would consider more of the norm today and it’s effective for sure, I just feel that there might be a quicker alternative.
20 rep squat program as brought up previously works absolute wonders for many people’s legs. The components are low volume, through the roof intensity, and high frequency. Now people could most likely not keep up similar protocol for the entire body, but if they kept those ideas in their mind of training progressively as frequently as their recovery allows… they might be in for some very nice gains. Somewhere in between the Mentzer 1 set every 15 days sort of thing and trying to train full body 10 days a week there is your own personal recovery “sweet spot” my suggestion is to find it.
[quote]David1991 wrote:
Derek didn’t you say in the past you wouldn’t recommend DC for me?
[/quote]
I would say no. It’s so much more than people think. It’s not just hard, it’s fall-on-floor hard.
There’s so many “little” things that I think only come with several years experience.
Good call on the 20 rep squat routine. A personal fave, but only because it made my legs grow like CRAZY.
David I would/am recommend the principles behind DC training but not the system itself. Assuming 1991 is your birth date and judging by your stats you are just beginning in training. Give yourself a couple more years and a good amount of muscle before considering DC. Take the ideas it’s based on to the bank though…
What Dante has done is simply take the common denominators from different aspects of the sport and found a way to fuse them. As he puts it, cutting down the fluff and getting back to brass tracks of what really works
And so on and so on. Take those principles and apply them to your training and with some common sense and a scientific mind towards manipulating variables food/recovery wise you will be very happy with your progress over time.
[quote]Scott M wrote:
20 rep squat program as brought up previously works absolute wonders for many people’s legs. The components are low volume, through the roof intensity, and high frequency. Now people could most likely not keep up similar protocol for the entire body, but if they kept those ideas in their mind of training progressively as frequently as their recovery allows… they might be in for some very nice gains. Somewhere in between the Mentzer 1 set every 15 days sort of thing and trying to train full body 10 days a week there is your own personal recovery “sweet spot” my suggestion is to find it. [/quote]
good post, what i quoted in particular.
with 20 rep squats it’s not really “low volume” overall though, reps count towards volume too but as far as sets go then yea. why would you say high frequency though? i’ve only seen it prescribed for once a week generally (5-7 days)
what do you guys think about this http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.jasonwojo.com/images/dante.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.jasonwojo.com/training_nutrition.html&h=202&w=240&sz=35&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=8FGwzyArXhk_rM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDante%2BTrudel%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN
i read that and that looked good IMO, like u said hitting the muscle 2x every 3 weeks. looks like a pretty solid plan.
[quote]derek wrote:
David1991 wrote:
Derek didn’t you say in the past you wouldn’t recommend DC for me?
I would say no. It’s so much more than people think. It’s not just hard, it’s fall-on-floor hard.
There’s so many “little” things that I think only come with several years experience.
Good call on the 20 rep squat routine. A personal fave, but only because it made my legs grow like CRAZY.[/quote]
that was another thing i did as part of that crazy intense routine i did…sucked lol
so basically you think it’s too advanced for me?
Spend some time reading the threads about it if you want. You’ll learn a lot. Right now it may be too advanced.
[quote]Scott M wrote:
David I would/am recommend the principles behind DC training but not the system itself. Assuming 1991 is your birth date and judging by your stats you are just beginning in training. Give yourself a couple more years and a good amount of muscle before considering DC. Take the ideas it’s based on to the bank though…
What Dante has done is simply take the common denominators from different aspects of the sport and found a way to fuse them. As he puts it, cutting down the fluff and getting back to brass tracks of what really works
And so on and so on. Take those principles and apply them to your training and with some common sense and a scientific mind towards manipulating variables food/recovery wise you will be very happy with your progress over time. [/quote]
thanks for laying that out, but heres what i dont get. you say i should apply the principles but if i were to do that wouldnt i pretty much be doing DC? i mean if i apply the principles and do some warm ups followed by a super intense set to failure in bench or something thats DC chest training right there right? i guess if i dont do the rest-pause (which i agree at my level probably isnt necessary), but then the recovery time becomes different
[quote]derek wrote:
Spend some time reading the threads about it if you want. You’ll learn a lot. Right now it may be too advanced.[/quote]
i do want to learn about it, but i think i would be best to listen to your advice and hold back. ive been training for 2 years (started at 130), but still as far as “training age” goes i’m probably still considered a beginner. i dont want to get too involved in the “hype” and jump to an advanced program
Hey clown, drink some tomato juice and you’d look like a thermometer. The only thing you should really be thinking about is sticking to a basic program for the next 6 weeks and eating your face off. I don’t care if you are a former fatty, you are making this far too difficult for yourself. The reading on this site isn’t rocket science (for the most part…damn you Chad), and there are many articles that explain questions and concerns like these.
[quote]mpd21487 wrote:
Hey clown, drink some tomato juice and you’d look like a thermometer. The only thing you should really be thinking about is sticking to a basic program for the next 6 weeks and eating plenty, but cleanly. I don’t care if you are a former fatty, you are making this far too difficult for yourself.[/quote]
i am following a good basic program and eating a lot and as of now it’s going well. it’s actually 6 weeks long, this is the 5th week. the only reason this thread was made was to learn more…not because im making things complicated.
To me the intermediate step between regular training programs and DC would be something like Iron Addict’s plans. Google him, he has too much common sense to be ignored and more people would be happy with their training if they listened to guys like him.
[quote]Scott M wrote:
To me the intermediate step between regular training programs and DC would be something like Iron Addict’s plans. Google him, he has too much common sense to be ignored and more people would be happy with their training if they listened to guys like him. [/quote]
just to make sure…you’re saying the routine he lays out would be a good “medium” to do between ‘regular’ routines and beginning DC right?
i’m looking on his forum now, are you talking about a set routine or his principles?
Principles, or set routine. He has a sticky or 10 and in one of them is top 5-10 lifting routines. Pick any one of them and you should be good to go.
Hell if you can, hire the man.
