My brother is an avid purchaser of Black Belt magazine, and, although I despise the magazine, it does have an occasional nugget of gold in it’s articles. Such an article was part 2 of their “Fight speed” series.
The article I read in particular was focused on hand speed and reaction time, and challenged the long held notion that smaller means faster and heavier means slower etc. I won’t go in as far as repeating the whole article obviously, but they had a chart that compared various elite fighter’s (plenty of big names from across the board; MMA, Boxing, K1) cross/straight speed’s in various fights, and there were some surprising numbers, especially some heavies who were just as fast, if not faster in some cases.
The author explained that the reason we perceive heavier weight classes to be slower is a multitude of issues: A) they have larger frames, so they are actually starting away slightly further B) Endurance, heavier fighters don’t remain at top capacity as long as lighter fighters do, but most importantly C) Nervous system damage.
The author likened it to “neuro-health” so to speak, explaining that lighter weight classes can go rounds teeing off on eachother and still come out in tip top condition. Whereas the heavier weight classes are doing much more damage to eachother in a single round and consequently are coming out less crisp in later rounds.
At any rate, I think it poses an interesting discussion, and it’s nice to see the martial arts community is challenging old truths.
As a “heavier” competitor I’m told that I have fast hands,timing,good footwork,etc…etc. But when I see myself on film,it looks like I’m slow as hell to me. But the stuff you just presented is very interesting. The neuro-health stuff makes sense from a basic understanding of how blows to the head affect motor skills.
I believe it. Would I rather get tagged by Vladimir Klitscho for 2 rounds or Gamboa for 4… well, at my size neither really, but if I was a bigger dude you know which one I’d say.
They’re also throwing way more punches in bunches, which heavyweights don’t do so much, so it may give them the illusion of being faster.
This, to me, proves that the biggest factor in connecting is TIMING. Not particularly speed.
Larger fighters certainly move around the ring, and bob & weave more slowly than smaller fighters. While this has nothing to do with hand speed, it probably contributes to the impression of being slower overall.
Because the hands move faster than their huge bodies, I bet that the big guys block or otherwise absorb way more punches than the small guys, who avoid them. Those blocks must take a toll over several rounds slowing them down further, as you said.
more size usually means more strength in sport, in leads to potentially MORE explosive output.
The function speed*mass increases in one’s favour for single, fullbody movements which aren’t too complex or long. That’s why all throwing sports, where it’s aobut pure explosive power, have sometimes even (realtively) fat guys competing for olympic gold.
In a (fair, sport-environmental-) fight, with fatigue, lots of various movements and other factors, things change depending on many variables. It surely gets complicated.
bottom line is still: the bigger you are, the greater your potential for (singular) explosiveness.
eg Melvin Manhoef would be less explosive if he’d be skinnier.
The neuro damage theory is typical “black belt” bullshido. Better forget that completely.
@bob and weave: large fighters have to feint more , since they have to be conservative with big movements. Relatively speaking, their endurance sucks mightily.
This does however bring up interesting issues. If velocity/speed IS power, then what is the deal with those true “punchers” whoa aren’t necessarily punching at the highest velocities as some of the faster fighters, but just seem to have iron in their hands and drop people.
Weight behind their punches (technique). Sturdier connective tissue (less ‘give’. More force transferred over to target). These are my best guesses. Awaiting a more knowledgeable voice to chime in.
[quote]rundymc wrote:
Weight behind their punches (technique). Sturdier connective tissue (less ‘give’. More force transferred over to target). These are my best guesses. Awaiting a more knowledgeable voice to chime in.[/quote]
Could also have to do with leverages, structure (proper body mechanics), bone density/size, hand size, and accuracy (a punch thrown directly in the line of force which connects straight through the center of gravity will feel a lot harder than one which grazes or is slightly off line).
It’s somewhat difficult to pinpoint though as it’s probably a slightly different reason from individual to individual.
I haven’t read the article but I was wondering how they classify “speed” of punches. Do they compare the amount of time each fighter takes to throw a punch (as in time it takes to travel from point A to point B) or the maximum velocity of the punch? Bigger frames allow for a greater amount of time to build up speed so a longer limbed fighter should be able to generate a greater velocity by the time the punch actually lands
[quote]rundymc wrote:
Weight behind their punches (technique). Sturdier connective tissue (less ‘give’. More force transferred over to target). These are my best guesses. Awaiting a more knowledgeable voice to chime in.[/quote]
Could also have to do with leverages, structure (proper body mechanics), bone density/size, hand size, and accuracy (a punch thrown directly in the line of force which connects straight through the center of gravity will feel a lot harder than one which grazes or is slightly off line).
It’s somewhat difficult to pinpoint though as it’s probably a slightly different reason from individual to individual.[/quote]
Makes sense. All individuals will be different I suppose.
On the subject of bone density, I was wondering, having never boxed seriously before, if it makes a difference in the ring once the gloves go on (say 8oz gloves). What do you think?
[quote]krazylarry wrote:
According to that Brock Lesnar and Nikolai valuev both punch faster than Mike Tyson…hmmmmmmm. [/quote]
Not at all?
They have a Mike Tyson right cross from the holyfield fight clocked in at 132ms. Brock Lesnar 165ms and Valuev at 160ms.
132ms to completion is faster than 160ms.
Note that these aren’t absolute either, but rather just examples from various fights to show the lack of size discrepancy.[/quote]
My mistake, I read that wrong.
[quote]krazylarry wrote:
According to that Brock Lesnar and Nikolai valuev both punch faster than Mike Tyson…hmmmmmmm. [/quote]
Not at all?
They have a Mike Tyson right cross from the holyfield fight clocked in at 132ms. Brock Lesnar 165ms and Valuev at 160ms.
132ms to completion is faster than 160ms.
Note that these aren’t absolute either, but rather just examples from various fights to show the lack of size discrepancy.[/quote]
My mistake, I read that wrong. [/quote]
First time posting here, sorry if I mess this up, but…
You can absolutely compare their handspeeds. A boxer trains for nothing more than punching, so his hands should fly quicker, even with the gloves, right?
Other than that, I have to ask about personal experience. I’ve always felt slower on the rare occasion that I’m able to get over 190 lbs.
Interesting idea. I’m a bit of a bigger guy (6’4" 225-230lbs) and I’ve never felt like a lumbering oaf on the mat or in the ring. I would say proportion of fast twitch muscle fiber as well as muscle recruitment/body mechanics are the important factors. Also I might suggest that some of the muscle imbalances/residual tension that sometimes affect extremely muscular guys may slow them down more so than just their mass.
Another thought is that (at sub-elite levels at least) a lot of really big guys focus on hypertrophy training which tends to favor slow twitch muscle over fast. So, if you get heavier, trade off your fast twitch fibers and pick up some shoulder issues or whatever yeah, you’re gonna slow down.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
Another thought is that (at sub-elite levels at least) a lot of really big guys focus on hypertrophy training which tends to favor slow twitch muscle over fast. So, if you get heavier, trade off your fast twitch fibers and pick up some shoulder issues or whatever yeah, you’re gonna slow down. [/quote]
??? Since when did hypertrophy training favor slow switch muscle over fast?
I think your point about the muscle tension might be a valid one. Also remember that Newton’s law of inertia states that it requires more energy to move a heavier stationary object (a limb, or body) than a lighter one. So it may stand to reason that a heavier fighter won’t have the same “starting speed” as a lighter one. And it’s pretty reasonable to think that even if the heavier fighter could start out with the same speed potential, they probably would lose it a lot faster than the lighter fighter as the round/fight goes on.
[quote]Mad HORSE wrote:
First time posting here, sorry if I mess this up, but…
You can absolutely compare their handspeeds. A boxer trains for nothing more than punching, so his hands should fly quicker, even with the gloves, right?
[/quote]
I think you misinterpreted what was meant by “absolute”.
He didn’t mean that you can’t compare a boxer’s handspeed to an MMA fighters. He mean that the speeds given in the article may not have been the “absolute” limit to how fast each fighter could throw a straight right, but instead was just one example taken from a single fight where they threw that punch at that speed.