Lynch’s Dad is a radio mogul guy here in San Diego, or at least he used to be. I think Johns’ scholarship at Stanford was pretty well greased.
That being said, he backed it up and was a real monster.
[quote]DJHT wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
You’d think a Stanford guy would be smarter than that…[/quote]
Never heard or read anything that Lynch is fucked up physical or mentally.
Maybe he is just one of those genetic freaks that can take the pounding.[/quote]
Or it just hasn’t settled in yet. For some of these guys, it takes a decade or two.
DB
[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
[quote]DJHT wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
You’d think a Stanford guy would be smarter than that…[/quote]
Never heard or read anything that Lynch is fucked up physical or mentally.
Maybe he is just one of those genetic freaks that can take the pounding.[/quote]
Or it just hasn’t settled in yet. For some of these guys, it takes a decade or two.
DB[/quote]
They have symptoms early on, they are just subtle, chronic headaches, certain muscle issues. But they normally dont let that out until it is to the point of incapacity.
Lynch was such a beast
I think this new crop of guys are going to be sooo fucked up physically when they get into their 50’s+ there is no way lynch’s brain isn’t mush
Wait guys, from a medical perspective you cant make generalizations like this.
Look at boxing, that is repetitive brain trauma that is equal to or maybe worse than Football. Every boxer that turns 50 is not fucked up.
Sorry some people have bad knees, backs and necks, some are more susceptible to brain trauma than others, that is just the human body.
I agree to an extent. I am not saying every nfl guy is going to be brain dead but I am anticipating an increase in the “john Mackey” type medical problems with players that played in the 2000’s. Boxing probably has so many “ali” cases that you don’t hear about because they weren’t as high profile or occured at the amateur level.
There is definitely an individual aspect to it but you can’t say there is no correlation between hits to the head and brain injuries.
[quote]TommyGunz32 wrote:
I agree to an extent. I am not saying every nfl guy is going to be brain dead but I am anticipating an increase in the “john Mackey” type medical problems with players that played in the 2000’s. Boxing probably has so many “ali” cases that you don’t hear about because they weren’t as high profile or occured at the amateur level.
There is definitely an individual aspect to it but you can’t say there is no correlation between hits to the head and brain injuries. [/quote]
Been in the medical field since 1991, yes there is a correlation not arguing that point. I just dont think we can look at how a player plays today and PREDICT his future. That is the problem with these types of issues.
Well, former players are suing the NFL for withholding information about concussion-related health issues and so forth. I’m sure this was going on to some extent. Why wouldn’t the NFL try to keep its players in the dark about concussions? Look at this thread for example: I think we’ve all pretty much made clear that any major rules changes that are put into effect in order to minimize brain trauma would water the league down.
The NFL knows we want to see the big hits and that the overall level of violence in the game is a huge selling point, especially to casual fans, so it wouldn’t surprise me at all to find that the NFL intentionally has misled or deceived its players in order to keep the money train rolling.
And really, this is what I was getting at when I started this thread in the first place. It’s beyond obvious now that players DO care about their lives after football and that many would have at least thought twice about pursuing a career in football had they been better educated about the risks to their brain. So how can the NFL really sustain its current product, the one that has become the most popular sport in North America, under these circumstances?
It’s a catch-22: if the NFL does nothing to the rules there’s going to be perpetual labor strife and as more and more info about brain trauma comes out less and less players growing up are going to pursue football, especially if their parents refuse to let them play in the first place. But if they enact sweeping changes it seems like this will have to entail changes that will severely limit the sport’s appeal.
One of the two scenarios is going to happen, and sooner rather than later. It doesn’t surprise me that this lawsuit was filed less than 24 hours before a vote on a new CBA. I’m sure there’s been a lot of talk about how to accommodate former players and their pensions and what amount is appropriate, given the escalating health problems players are having that are now clearly linked to their playing days. I doubt they want a new CBA without this issue being addressed NOW rather than put on the back burner until the next round of CBA negotiations.
I don’t like this possibility any more than the next fan, but the reality is that the game is most likely going to be totally different in ten years from what it is now, and for the worse no matter what. Either way less talent and a growing problem with player identification/team loyalty due to an increasing overturn in rosters…or a watered down version of the game that resembles a cross between rugby and flag football.
DB I dont see many more changes I see better equipment.
What role does the player have in this? They chose a profession that is high risk, how many actually invest in there future after football? Average time in league is 3 years, what are they doing with the money while they are in? Trying to get on MTV Cribs, paying child support, etc.
The NFL actually has things set up for the players to take advantage of while they are active, I dont know % but this is one thing I hear a lot that these guys are NOT investing in retirement etc.
The new CBA actually has allocated 1 billion to the retired players with 620 million from the owners. With a profession with that kind of turn over and risk that is saying a lot for the owners to do this.
[quote]DJHT wrote:
DB I dont see many more changes I see better equipment.
What role does the player have in this? They chose a profession that is high risk, how many actually invest in there future after football? Average time in league is 3 years, what are they doing with the money while they are in? Trying to get on MTV Cribs, paying child support, etc.
The NFL actually has things set up for the players to take advantage of while they are active, I dont know % but this is one thing I hear a lot that these guys are NOT investing in retirement etc.
The new CBA actually has allocated 1 billion to the retired players with 620 million from the owners. With a profession with that kind of turn over and risk that is saying a lot for the owners to do this.[/quote]
I don’t see how better equipment can do anything to significantly alleviate concussions. I do see how the NFL could introduce this supposedly safer equipment in order to create the impression that launching yourself headfirst through guys can become “safer”, thereby not watering down the league but not really addressing the real problem.
Concussions happen when the brain bounces off the inside of the brain pan. Sure, better helmets can lessen this possibility to some extent. But no helmet is going to significantly decrease the speed at which the head can decelerate or change direction when someone gets tackled. I’ve actually had a concussion without even really hitting my head and that’s where a lot of the concussions in the NFL come from.
If you can launch yourself shoulder-first right into someone’s sternum (which is a legal hit in the NFL) you can easily concuss the ball-carrier. With players getting bigger and faster it’s that much more of an impact and that much more of a deceleration that the ball-carrier suffers. THIS is what the inherent flaw in football is. Without mandating that players must wrap up a player to tackle them, I don’t see how this aspect of the game can be changed and still have a significant impact on the amount of concussions suffered every year.
DB I know how a concussion happens, and I do understand your point. However the NFL is a business 1st and foremost. They will lose revenue by watering down the league to a point of changing the game.
My point is that the next push will be for better equipment and they do have helmets that have shown to decrease concussions, it is just not mandated to wear.
This comes down to work related injuries and risk. NFL players have “signed” on to the fact the game is inherently flawed and can cause bodily harm, one of the reason they are compensated to the level they are. Which they have achieved through years of legal battling.
[quote]DJHT wrote:
DB I know how a concussion happens, and I do understand your point. However the NFL is a business 1st and foremost. They will lose revenue by watering down the league to a point of changing the game.
My point is that the next push will be for better equipment and they do have helmets that have shown to decrease concussions, it is just not mandated to wear.
This comes down to work related injuries and risk. NFL players have “signed” on to the fact the game is inherently flawed and can cause bodily harm, one of the reason they are compensated to the level they are. Which they have achieved through years of legal battling. [/quote]
I disagree with your premise. The lawsuit filed against the NFL clearly indicates that many players are NOT aware of the extent of the risks they take. These are not risks that they have signed on to, hence the lawsuit. And former players clearly feel they are due more compensation than what they are getting now, simply because they feel they are being compensated for the damages that the players expected to suffer, NOT what they allege the NFL knew about for a long time now.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]DJHT wrote:
DB I know how a concussion happens, and I do understand your point. However the NFL is a business 1st and foremost. They will lose revenue by watering down the league to a point of changing the game.
My point is that the next push will be for better equipment and they do have helmets that have shown to decrease concussions, it is just not mandated to wear.
This comes down to work related injuries and risk. NFL players have “signed” on to the fact the game is inherently flawed and can cause bodily harm, one of the reason they are compensated to the level they are. Which they have achieved through years of legal battling. [/quote]
I disagree with your premise. The lawsuit filed against the NFL clearly indicates that many players are NOT aware of the extent of the risks they take. These are not risks that they have signed on to, hence the lawsuit. And former players clearly feel they are due more compensation than what they are getting now, simply because they feel they are being compensated for the damages that the players expected to suffer, NOT what they allege the NFL knew about for a long time now.
[/quote]
Just heard about the new lawsuit, HOWEVER the premise is still the same.
I would not be a bull rider, cause I know for a fact I could get killed or maimed.
If I never played the game of football and watched a game I would know the risk involved. So unless these guys are really, really fucking stupid they are playing a bullshit card in my opinion.
Just like the bull shit de-certification of the union, really? But D Smith is now the acting what?
This is all a bargaining chip for the CBA nothing else.
[quote]DJHT wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]DJHT wrote:
DB I know how a concussion happens, and I do understand your point. However the NFL is a business 1st and foremost. They will lose revenue by watering down the league to a point of changing the game.
My point is that the next push will be for better equipment and they do have helmets that have shown to decrease concussions, it is just not mandated to wear.
This comes down to work related injuries and risk. NFL players have “signed” on to the fact the game is inherently flawed and can cause bodily harm, one of the reason they are compensated to the level they are. Which they have achieved through years of legal battling. [/quote]
I disagree with your premise. The lawsuit filed against the NFL clearly indicates that many players are NOT aware of the extent of the risks they take. These are not risks that they have signed on to, hence the lawsuit. And former players clearly feel they are due more compensation than what they are getting now, simply because they feel they are being compensated for the damages that the players expected to suffer, NOT what they allege the NFL knew about for a long time now.
[/quote]
Just heard about the new lawsuit, HOWEVER the premise is still the same.
I would not be a bull rider, cause I know for a fact I could get killed or maimed.
If I never played the game of football and watched a game I would know the risk involved. So unless these guys are really, really fucking stupid they are playing a bullshit card in my opinion.
Just like the bull shit de-certification of the union, really? But D Smith is now the acting what?
This is all a bargaining chip for the CBA nothing else.
[/quote]
To paraphrase Dr. McCoy, they’re football players, not doctors. I don’t hold them responsible nor do I see it as a sign of ignorance if they were unaware of the totality of harm done to their brains from repeated concussions, especially the previously-unknown link to Alzheimer’s and dementia. This goes without saying even if I disregard the allegation that the NFL was aware of the extent of these possibilities for a long time now and never revealed the information that they had to any of their players. I FURTHER don’t blame them for not realizing this when I take into account that these are 21-22 y/o kids coming into the league.
When you ride a bull the danger to you is painfully self-evident. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to look at a two-ton animal that hasn’t been castrated and come to the conclusion that this motherfucker can and will kill you if given the chance.
But the average person, up until a few years ago when much more extensive studies about the long-term effects of multiple concussions were made available to the general public, shouldn’t be expected to watch a player get his bell rocked (especially if it happens on a play where the concussion occurs due to rapid deceleration and not due to a direct blow to the head) and come to the conclusion that twenty years after he retires he may have trouble remembering his wife and kids’ names or that he may suffer the onset of dementia before he hits 55.
Shit, I remember a couple seasons in 1995 and 1996 where it seems like Steve Young suffered several concussions, and the last couple didn’t even come from direct shots to the head. He had suffered enough concussions to the point where he was extremely vulnerable on ANY hit. They said he got rocked in a game once and the very next play he puked in the huddle and then called some bizarre play straight out of BYU’s playbook. And this is a tough fucking guy who took cortisone shots directly into his broken ribcage in subzero temperatures at halftime of the 1996 NFC Championship Game in Green Bay. But concussions leveled him and it’s sad to say that he will probably suffer the consequences in a harsh manner within the next decade.
And back then there was no rule about coming out after a concussion. Fuck no. Young got knocked out cold, I mean out fucking cold as in completely unconscious, on the field on more than one occasion and I know he came back and played on at least one of them. The last time it happened ended his career (fuck you Lawrence Phillips for missing that block). Now if the NFL knew anything about the severe impact concussions have later in life at that time, I fully hold them responsible and they should be sued right into non-existence for it. Because if that is the case, they essentially did not give players the chance to make the decision to put themselves at that risk. It was made for them, in the name of the Almighty Dollar.
If this is what has been going, then the NFL is DEFINITELY a flawed sport. ANY sport that would try in any way, shape or form to deceive its players and mislead them about the dangers they are exposed to in pursuit of higher revenues cannot last. It breeds extreme distrust between the league and its players, which we see now is already at an all-time low without this lawsuit. I’d bet my bottom dollar that if Steve Young or Troy Aikman knew then what we know about concussions (and what the NFL allegedly already knew when they were getting their brains bashed in and then being pressured to shake it off and keep playing in the name of “toughness” by both fans and their employers) they would have retired a lot sooner.
[quote]doogie wrote:
Nerf helmets.[/quote]
I don’t know if you guys read Tuesday Morning Quarterback at all, but one thing the author mentioned last season was the idea of using externally padded helmets which would help eliminate a lot of the destructive hits we witness in football. I thought it was an interesting idea.
The problem with the hard helmets (or hard objects in general) is that it is difficult to cause plastic deformation, so no energy of the impact is dissipated in the collision through the helmet, so the rapid movement of the head is not lessened.
However, the helmet does spread the energy over the head, so there are no traumas in specific areas.
I like the idea Bonez brought up, a high density foam, which would be tough, so it could absorb high energy impacts, and it would be able to undergo elastic deformation. It would be like the crumple zone of a car (or an airbag), it will increase the time of the collision (and therefore reduce the magnitude of the deceleration) so the impact force will be lessened. Also more energy would be dissipated in causing the deformation, so less energy would be transferred to the head.
If it was thick enough, it will still spread energy over the head and it would still reduce localised trauma, but not to the same degree as the hard helmet.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]DJHT wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]DJHT wrote:
DB I know how a concussion happens, and I do understand your point. However the NFL is a business 1st and foremost. They will lose revenue by watering down the league to a point of changing the game.
My point is that the next push will be for better equipment and they do have helmets that have shown to decrease concussions, it is just not mandated to wear.
This comes down to work related injuries and risk. NFL players have “signed” on to the fact the game is inherently flawed and can cause bodily harm, one of the reason they are compensated to the level they are. Which they have achieved through years of legal battling. [/quote]
I disagree with your premise. The lawsuit filed against the NFL clearly indicates that many players are NOT aware of the extent of the risks they take. These are not risks that they have signed on to, hence the lawsuit. And former players clearly feel they are due more compensation than what they are getting now, simply because they feel they are being compensated for the damages that the players expected to suffer, NOT what they allege the NFL knew about for a long time now.
[/quote]
Just heard about the new lawsuit, HOWEVER the premise is still the same.
I would not be a bull rider, cause I know for a fact I could get killed or maimed.
If I never played the game of football and watched a game I would know the risk involved. So unless these guys are really, really fucking stupid they are playing a bullshit card in my opinion.
Just like the bull shit de-certification of the union, really? But D Smith is now the acting what?
This is all a bargaining chip for the CBA nothing else.
[/quote]
To paraphrase Dr. McCoy, they’re football players, not doctors. I don’t hold them responsible nor do I see it as a sign of ignorance if they were unaware of the totality of harm done to their brains from repeated concussions, especially the previously-unknown link to Alzheimer’s and dementia. This goes without saying even if I disregard the allegation that the NFL was aware of the extent of these possibilities for a long time now and never revealed the information that they had to any of their players. I FURTHER don’t blame them for not realizing this when I take into account that these are 21-22 y/o kids coming into the league.
When you ride a bull the danger to you is painfully self-evident. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to look at a two-ton animal that hasn’t been castrated and come to the conclusion that this motherfucker can and will kill you if given the chance.
But the average person, up until a few years ago when much more extensive studies about the long-term effects of multiple concussions were made available to the general public, shouldn’t be expected to watch a player get his bell rocked (especially if it happens on a play where the concussion occurs due to rapid deceleration and not due to a direct blow to the head) and come to the conclusion that twenty years after he retires he may have trouble remembering his wife and kids’ names or that he may suffer the onset of dementia before he hits 55.
Shit, I remember a couple seasons in 1995 and 1996 where it seems like Steve Young suffered several concussions, and the last couple didn’t even come from direct shots to the head. He had suffered enough concussions to the point where he was extremely vulnerable on ANY hit. They said he got rocked in a game once and the very next play he puked in the huddle and then called some bizarre play straight out of BYU’s playbook. And this is a tough fucking guy who took cortisone shots directly into his broken ribcage in subzero temperatures at halftime of the 1996 NFC Championship Game in Green Bay. But concussions leveled him and it’s sad to say that he will probably suffer the consequences in a harsh manner within the next decade.
And back then there was no rule about coming out after a concussion. Fuck no. Young got knocked out cold, I mean out fucking cold as in completely unconscious, on the field on more than one occasion and I know he came back and played on at least one of them. The last time it happened ended his career (fuck you Lawrence Phillips for missing that block). Now if the NFL knew anything about the severe impact concussions have later in life at that time, I fully hold them responsible and they should be sued right into non-existence for it. Because if that is the case, they essentially did not give players the chance to make the decision to put themselves at that risk. It was made for them, in the name of the Almighty Dollar.
If this is what has been going, then the NFL is DEFINITELY a flawed sport. ANY sport that would try in any way, shape or form to deceive its players and mislead them about the dangers they are exposed to in pursuit of higher revenues cannot last. It breeds extreme distrust between the league and its players, which we see now is already at an all-time low without this lawsuit. I’d bet my bottom dollar that if Steve Young or Troy Aikman knew then what we know about concussions (and what the NFL allegedly already knew when they were getting their brains bashed in and then being pressured to shake it off and keep playing in the name of “toughness” by both fans and their employers) they would have retired a lot sooner.[/quote]
You know DB there is a lot I can agree with you, the link above is to a HOF I listened to this morning. He had some really insightful thoughts that got me to thinking a bit more.
I will say that his biggest problem is all the things you have spoke about on here, however he has a problem with the NFLPA. NOT the NFL itself, he used the analogy of the smoking lawsuits.
Back when everyone and there dog was smoking nobody knew the damage it could cause, this was discovered after long term studies were finally completed. My understanding is that 5 years ago (when Goddell started) they started a council and study on the long term effects. That this finally came out sometime last year. I really dont think we can jump to the conclusion that the NFL sat on information and sacrificed its employees. Innocent until proven guilty correct.
I really think that pre 1993 that those guys need to be taken care of there were major rules changes after this to help player safety.
Joe from link above was stating the the NFL (Goddell and others) have proposed to the former players a 1.5% of the pie and that they requested the NFLPA match it. D. Smith refused it. Joe basically states that D. Smith and the late G. Upshaw are puppets for the big time agents in the league (Condone etc). Not being on the inside cannot substantiate this but this guy was very compelling.
He related to back to the 1982 strike where the players lost a lot of money and Upshaw promised them personally that they would make it back in benefits. Upshaw also got many, many guys to pull early on there retirement when they hit 45, which unbeknownst to the guys who did this negated any medical benefits.
To me this is a lot of big business type stuff that the “public” just never gets to know, with the “normal” guys (the players) are used in the middle by both sides.
Boxing, MMA and Football are violent sports, they are our Gladiators, with the inherent human nature that is abundantly evident this will not go away. I do not see things changing in 10 years where we have a game that is flag or touch football. Another league would spring up to offer what the public wants and the NFL has to much invested to lose its hold.
I’m sitting in my office (more like a cubicle without walls, which makes jerking off to the T-Vixen thread quite problematic) right now watching Joe Harris, former NFL player, talking about all of this on CNN right now.
I will say this: I am not a court of law, so people are not innocent until proven guilty as far as I am concerned. Has the NFL been proven to be complicit in any of this? No, and they may not be complicit at all. However, I think it would be foolhardy to think that the NFL did not conceal this sort of info if it was available to them.
Take a look around: there are former players coming out every day talking about the seriously-deteriorated quality of their lives, mainly due to concussions that they were unaware would affect them this severely later in life. Harris right now is warning parents and the kids who take up the game to really think about all of this before deciding to play football. And THAT is what the NFL is scared of. I’m sure the NFLPA is scared of that as well. I don’t think which entity is complicit in hiding this information or downplaying it matters that much. What matters is how people react when they see all these former players, like the guy I saw interviewed by Sanjay Gupta last night who admitted that he didn’t know if he would remember the interview the next day. The guy was about 50.
My point is that how can a sport that does this to its players survive? How can it survive when, on one hand you have fans who get off on watching these life-altering hits and on the other you have fans who are possibly becoming very turned off by the sport due to all of this? How can it survive when the league is slowly being forced to move away from exactly what appeals to many fans?
Football isn’t like baseball. There aren’t any other countries that have any sort of significant football league or source of football talent because it simply isn’t played very much at all outside of North America. If the NFL begins to lose talent because of the growing knowledge about concussions, combined with the very likely possibility that both the NFL AND the NFLPA are helping deceive or downplay concussions in order to keep revenues high, they don’t have the Caribbean or Asia or South America to start pulling talent from. THIS is what will threaten the NFL as we know it.
I fully expect that kids growing up will slowly leave the sport and that this will result in a loss of talent in the NFL. MLB is always worried about how they’ve lost so many black athletes to football and basketball in the last 20 years (which isn’t a problem at all for MLB since there is so much talent around the world). Why? Kids were lured away by the game itself. It can get boring sometimes and baseball doesn’t offer the same instant gratification that football or basketball does. These are incentives that have drawn black talent from baseball, and people respond to incentives. With an incentive as big as being able to remember your children and grandchildren later in life, there’s no way people are not going to respond to this as the choices and consequences of those choices becomes clearer.
Besides, it’s not like kids have to choose between football and nothing. Anyone who is athletically-gifted enough to play in the NFL can probably go pro in a variety of other sports if they practice and play THOSE sports instead of football from an early age. When looked at that way, kids aren’t giving up a shot at millions of dollars, they’re simply giving up the chance to get well-compensated for having their brains turned to pudding.
^ Kind of makes you realize why they are trying to grow the market overseas.
What about boxing? You would expect more issues from boxing than Football.
[quote]DJHT wrote:
^ Kind of makes you realize why they are trying to grow the market overseas.
What about boxing? You would expect more issues from boxing than Football. [/quote]
What about boxing? It’s a totally irrelevant sport now, compared to what it was in its heyday 40 years ago. Especially the heavyweight division. That’s where football is heading. And I think a HUGE part of that can be directly tied to the fact that a lot of people who grew up watching boxing and being really into it and all that look around and they see their favorite boxers from back in the day who are now nothing but animated vegetables.
I think a lot of those people realize that what they were watching was nothing more than a bunch of guys getting their brain chemistry permanently and cripplingly altered while people like Don King kept wheeling them out there against their and their families’ best interests. If it comes out there is merit to the lawsuit against the NFL (and if they actually WIN the lawsuit it could be worse) I think you’ll see a lot of the backlash we see toward boxing directed at football as well.
I gotta tell you too, I’m one of those persons. I love football, but I am increasingly turned off by it and everything it stands for these days. In many ways it stands for all the base-level instincts of this country that are a detriment to it. Being tough is all that matters, aside from winning and money.
I’m sick of watching players in college who are nothing more than criminals with physical talent get accepted into schools strictly because they can bring in a lot of money. Those sorts of people then get to the NFL and they haven’t had to suffer any consequences because they’re the star so-and-so and now they have all this money and you get situations like Rae Carruth or Adam Jones or Erik Williams. College should weed those types out, rather than provide them the fast track to fame. I’m further turned off by all the shady happenings in NCAA football.
The labor strife in general further turned me off to the game and all of this concussion shit is doing the same. Sure, we all joke about it sometimes, but really, I don’t want to watch a bunch of athletes get their brains permanently scrambled in a sport that is more and more consisting of six days of sheer hype followed by a three-hour game that is decided as much by the rules interpretation of the refs and the game plan installed by some fat fuck in a booth at the top of the stadium as it is by the players on the field.